Terrible, absolutely terrible.
Production Order Group Viewing 2018
- Thread starter Archivist13
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Agreed. How sad. Someone remind me who the alleged attacker was. Ugh.
She never identified the executive by name, although she had, I believe, stated it wasn't Roddenberry.
Apparently she was invited to a meeting to discuss character development and ended up being forced into sexual role play as a subservient yeoman . In the wake of Me Too, we now know how widespread this has been.
I think I wave the flag for Rand so vehemently because I feel Grace was treated abysmally, because Rand's worth as a character ripe for development is often overlooked, not only in the show, but also in subsequent comics, novels, and reboot movies to this day. She was the only female lead the show had and yet nobody seems to view her that way. She's lucky if she gets a cameo. :-/
Apparently, while naval yeomen do an administrative role, Rand was also portrayed doing tasks more akin to an army batman (getting Kirk's uniform ready, bringing him food, accompanying him on landing parties). The batman role would include being his personal pilot and bodyguard. Sixties sexism aside, that's a lot to work with.
In fact, in Harlan Ellison's script for City on the Edge of Forever, he was prepared to put Rand in a more active role. Far more active than Uhura got in the eventual episode. In his comic adaptation, she was toting a phaser rifle, beating up space pirates, improvising with a tricorder, jury rigging a transporter, and commanding a security team.
Yes please!
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I've seen this claim a few times online. As far as I know, she never indicated the man wasn't Roddenberry. If there's evidence to the contrary, of course, I'd love to see it.
From an earlier thread:
She was also on a more expensive contract and they kept whittling her part down to keep too much sexual tension out of it, so there was likely more than one reason. Female characters were not that highly regarded in the sixties or through the eighties, but she could have been moved to a day player contract (Takei was later on, I believe) or a guest star. There was something else behind it for sure. Grrr.
It's a shame. These early episodes have some neat interplay between the wider cast. I think losing Rand helps to dilute that.
Her dismissal as a regular appears to have largely come down to the factor of money versus the size of her role. Nichelle Nichols and George Takei were both dropped from their options at different times for the same reason - but they were allowed to come back on the show as day players.
To those who don't have a copy of Inside Star Trek: The Real Story to hand, this old thread discusses the subject:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/grace-lee-whitney-yeomand-rand.34007/
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/grace-lee-whitney-yeomand-rand.34007/
They still nixed a potential return in the Trouble with Tribbles though. :-(
And in other stories written before she was fired, like the aforementioned "The City on the Edge of Forever."
Which Kirk is recording the log?
"Captain's Log: Supplemental. Put McCoy on report for insubordination and transfer Yeoman Rand to sanitation detail. I'm the captain and they'd both better remember that.""
Thanks, Paul and Harvey. How sad. 
I'll keep waving the Rand flag. One of the things I did for the 50th anniversary of Star Trek was order a Qmx Captain Kirk. The next thing I did was order a custom Rand head to stand alongside him. She's currently awaiting painting :-)Thanks, Paul and Harvey. How sad.
I watched this episode, and keeping with the latest subject I'll start with these observations first.
The assault scene actually lasts quite a long time and it's very disturbing to watch, but I couldn't help wondering if Gen... er some executive found this very arousing and wanted it like that. Some previous posts said Mattheson didn't like the B plot of the men stranded on the planet, what were his comments about adding in this scene if any? The script knowledgeable posters may illuminate this some for us, is this elaborately scripted or is it just mentioned for the actors to play out. In light of knowing how Grace was treated and dumped, it makes this much worse. But having said that I think there's too much piling on about Mr. Spock's last comment. I've seen whole threads dedicated to it but at the risk of getting condemned I think it was really Mr. Spock's not fully developed character's attempt at a joke, the main reason for that is Spock is quite emotional during this episode. I don't mean he laughs or cries or things like that but his face is quite expressive, when confronting Jim the first time because Dr. McCoy contacted him, Jim even says "I know that look" when discussing Jim being slip apart he makes a point to attempt to excuse his insensitivity because of how he is but he seems rather animated while discussing it. And that leads me back to the end, maybe he doesn't realize how insensitive it is to make that remark? Last thing on this is this was after Mr. Spock heard this exchange:
KIRK: The impostor's back where he belongs. Let's forget him.
RAND: Captain? The impostor told me what happened, who he really was, and I'd just like to say that. Well, sir, what I'd like is
KIRK: Thank you, Yeoman.
She never completes that thought but it's implied that she would be willing to have some kind of relationship from other things she has (and will) say and Jim shuts her right down there. So I think Spock's "interesting qualities" is not that "isn't it great to have a rapist boss" but wouldn't it be nice if the boss stopped ignoring you. It's not as if Jim isn't attracted to her but he won't allow himself to do anything about it, this can be very destructive to the work environment, in a far different way, but a difficult situation as well. That's more than I would have like to spend on that but I was attempting to be clear, I'm not in favor of mistreatment of anyone.
Want to talk about flubs, how about the showdown in engineering?
First, I'm starting to feel like Jojo Cracko and wonder if there's only 3 guys on this ship, Fisher is hurt and he's the crewman that interferes in the assault, Wilson is the assistant from the transport up scene but he's the guy Kirk-2 whacks to take his Phaser Two. But then when he's facing Kirk-1 in engineering he has a Phaser One. Now maybe, you might say to yourself, he removed the Phaser One component from Wilson's Phaser Two, but then they helpfully throw in a close up of Kirk-2 holding a Phaser Two! (unless some random officer of captain's rank and a command colored top just happened to be walking around holding a Phaser Two in a threatening manor.) One more thing besides all of that, the hole he shoots into the wall happens to be the transporter's stuff and they didn't mention it to Scotty? And why was engeineering so deserted?
For a long time I wanted one of those puppies like Mr. Spock was holding.
Why have Scotty grab it and Spock give it a shot? Shouldn't that have been the other way around?
The four men start out huddled together under one tent/blanket and then in later scenes they are apart? Did they have an argument? There's a lot of criticism towards this part to be said, but I think it was only in execution rather than the script for this part, why have any exposed skin but Sulu has his face out every time and so on. I just accept the fact, the environment was too dangerous to survive without the transporter to bring them back and not pick on it too much. I'm not going to mention the shuttle.
Who activated the controls for Kirk-2 to finish beaming up? The sound effect even sounded like the machine was operated? Didn't it seem like Kirk-1 retained some command abilities while Kirk-2 didn't retain any of his better qualities? Wasn't Kirk just talking about stuff people keep in side to a psychologist not that long ago?
One more observation, James Doohan really "sells it" that the transporter is something you really need to know how to operate. He really makes with the buttons and sliders, everyone else seems to just do it, he really puts effort to make it look like there's something to it.
The assault scene actually lasts quite a long time and it's very disturbing to watch, but I couldn't help wondering if Gen... er some executive found this very arousing and wanted it like that. Some previous posts said Mattheson didn't like the B plot of the men stranded on the planet, what were his comments about adding in this scene if any? The script knowledgeable posters may illuminate this some for us, is this elaborately scripted or is it just mentioned for the actors to play out. In light of knowing how Grace was treated and dumped, it makes this much worse. But having said that I think there's too much piling on about Mr. Spock's last comment. I've seen whole threads dedicated to it but at the risk of getting condemned I think it was really Mr. Spock's not fully developed character's attempt at a joke, the main reason for that is Spock is quite emotional during this episode. I don't mean he laughs or cries or things like that but his face is quite expressive, when confronting Jim the first time because Dr. McCoy contacted him, Jim even says "I know that look" when discussing Jim being slip apart he makes a point to attempt to excuse his insensitivity because of how he is but he seems rather animated while discussing it. And that leads me back to the end, maybe he doesn't realize how insensitive it is to make that remark? Last thing on this is this was after Mr. Spock heard this exchange:
KIRK: The impostor's back where he belongs. Let's forget him.
RAND: Captain? The impostor told me what happened, who he really was, and I'd just like to say that. Well, sir, what I'd like is
KIRK: Thank you, Yeoman.
She never completes that thought but it's implied that she would be willing to have some kind of relationship from other things she has (and will) say and Jim shuts her right down there. So I think Spock's "interesting qualities" is not that "isn't it great to have a rapist boss" but wouldn't it be nice if the boss stopped ignoring you. It's not as if Jim isn't attracted to her but he won't allow himself to do anything about it, this can be very destructive to the work environment, in a far different way, but a difficult situation as well. That's more than I would have like to spend on that but I was attempting to be clear, I'm not in favor of mistreatment of anyone.
Second Officer Spock???This one has more boners than I remembered!
Want to talk about flubs, how about the showdown in engineering?
First, I'm starting to feel like Jojo Cracko and wonder if there's only 3 guys on this ship, Fisher is hurt and he's the crewman that interferes in the assault, Wilson is the assistant from the transport up scene but he's the guy Kirk-2 whacks to take his Phaser Two. But then when he's facing Kirk-1 in engineering he has a Phaser One. Now maybe, you might say to yourself, he removed the Phaser One component from Wilson's Phaser Two, but then they helpfully throw in a close up of Kirk-2 holding a Phaser Two! (unless some random officer of captain's rank and a command colored top just happened to be walking around holding a Phaser Two in a threatening manor.) One more thing besides all of that, the hole he shoots into the wall happens to be the transporter's stuff and they didn't mention it to Scotty? And why was engeineering so deserted?
For a long time I wanted one of those puppies like Mr. Spock was holding.
Why have Scotty grab it and Spock give it a shot? Shouldn't that have been the other way around?
The four men start out huddled together under one tent/blanket and then in later scenes they are apart? Did they have an argument? There's a lot of criticism towards this part to be said, but I think it was only in execution rather than the script for this part, why have any exposed skin but Sulu has his face out every time and so on. I just accept the fact, the environment was too dangerous to survive without the transporter to bring them back and not pick on it too much. I'm not going to mention the shuttle.
Who activated the controls for Kirk-2 to finish beaming up? The sound effect even sounded like the machine was operated? Didn't it seem like Kirk-1 retained some command abilities while Kirk-2 didn't retain any of his better qualities? Wasn't Kirk just talking about stuff people keep in side to a psychologist not that long ago?
One more observation, James Doohan really "sells it" that the transporter is something you really need to know how to operate. He really makes with the buttons and sliders, everyone else seems to just do it, he really puts effort to make it look like there's something to it.
In these early episodes we see that the rank system is largely naval, including non-commissioned crew such as Geological Technician Fisher (a crewman) and various officers. It does seem slightly top heavy with lieutenants at this point but I think that gets worse as the show goes on.
As far as Spock's 'joke' to Rand goes, I think it was the sexism of the time, where women were subjected to inappropriate banter all the time. In character, there was intended to be a more casual element to their relationship that was never quite developed. Spock's observation should not carry any emotional weight and should be more clinical but at this point in the series, Spock presents more emotion, often smirking or displaying frustration. His smirk here is highly suggestive that he fully intended to make a joke at her expense.
As far as Spock's 'joke' to Rand goes, I think it was the sexism of the time, where women were subjected to inappropriate banter all the time. In character, there was intended to be a more casual element to their relationship that was never quite developed. Spock's observation should not carry any emotional weight and should be more clinical but at this point in the series, Spock presents more emotion, often smirking or displaying frustration. His smirk here is highly suggestive that he fully intended to make a joke at her expense.
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I think actors with very small roles, the background and "placeholder" characters, are discouraged from calling too much attention to themselves. No-name transporter operators and station sitters on the bridge are not supposed to overplay their presence and possibly pull focus away from the stars.
Doohan on the other hand was supposed to be a strong presence, and he took his role, Scotty's fictional job, very seriously. For instance, it irked him when Spock would come down to Engineering and supervise ("The Naked Time", "Elaan of Troyius"). Later, during the 1970s convention era, he would always try to have good techno-patter ready for the young men (now called fanboys) who would pepper him with questions.
Didn't the Orion articles say that originally the joke was said by Rand not Spock?. That still doesn't make it any less sexist as it was written by men. Was it some comment that society emasculates men and that some women like McGivers and Spock's mum like a strong man to dominate them and take charge. While maybe it was true for some minority of women in the 60s the remark was inappropriate especially considering the association with the attempted rape..
I also don't get why Rand/Spock would think that 'evil' Kirk's interest in Rand was something that 'good' Kirk would never allow. And that it was terrible for Kirk. I'm not talking about rapist Kirk. I'm talking about poor poor Kirk who was never allowed to notice his yeoman. He noticed plenty of other women in his 5YM even romancing Lenore under Rand's nose. Nobody seemed to think it was improper, Spock didn't seem to be concerned about Kirk's romancing just about his other behaviour in that episode. McCoy was even encouraging of Kirk's romances.
Sure maybe Kirk can't romance a yeoman but he had no problems romancing other female officers/visitors/exes.
In later episodes we see many other officers engaging in romances with fellow officers. I think the problem is dating someone in your direct chain of command. Since everyone is in Kirk's chain of command, his crew are off limits.
I think if 50 shades popularity, not to mention that of every gothic romance ever...even Jane eyre...is anything to go by, that you are possibly underestimating or overestimating (depending on your point of view) the psychology of various people.
In this case, whilst the joke can be seen as a bit...awkward...it also goes to the heart of the episode. The lustful side, the dominant side that wants to ‘own’ is a powerful emotion that under certain circumstances is attractive or desirable (as also shown in being able to make tough decisions for the away team) but it needs to be tempered by the ‘weaker’ good emotions, that shy from boundaries, but also allow for caring rather than domination. The joke suggests Rand would like Kirk to give into his desire for her, but it is his ‘good’ side that keeps him on the side of the boundary that their professional relationship gives. It’s so,etching we also see withe Spock/Chapel stuff later.
It’s a recurring archetype in romantic fiction in fact, particularly popular with women for the last hundred years or so.
But awkward? Yes. Bad Kirk is just that, bad, and that’s sort of the point.
Production Order Week 6
Star Trek Episode 1x05 The Man Trap
First aired: September 8, 1966
6th episode produced, 1st episode released.
A mysterious creature stalks the Enterprise, murdering crew members.
Star Trek Episode 1x05 The Man Trap
First aired: September 8, 1966
6th episode produced, 1st episode released.
A mysterious creature stalks the Enterprise, murdering crew members.
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