Chris Rock as Rufus, the 13th Apostle in Dogma (he ad-libbed it)
Poll: Do Star Trek fans believe in a Supreme Being?
- Thread starter Duane
- Start date
Sorry, too late for that. When people start saying that people of faith are weak, that we are deluding ourselves, it gets a bit personal.
Basically, they are saying that my whole belief system, everything I have based my life upon, every facet of my life is because I'm not smart enough to think for myself, and that I need to make up something in order to live. Yeah, that's not a personal affront at all.
I believe in a Supreme being...but I think I'm arriving at the decision that he leaves us alone to sort out our own mess.
The alternative, that he is actually INVOLVED in the grim state of the world, is too depressing to contemplate any longer.
The alternative, that he is actually INVOLVED in the grim state of the world, is too depressing to contemplate any longer.
Problems will definitely come when 'people' try to sell you.
It's people's job to simply share&show unintrusively, like mannequins in a store window.
God, however, is the 'Head Sales Clerk'.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Of course people have given their lives for things they knew were not on this planet. Back then, most of all the gods and demi-gods were not actually considered to be or have been on this world, but they all were real in another world, another dimension, a dream time, and their faith that that dream time as real as the world they could see with their own eyes was powerful enough they were willing to give their lives for it.
Well, on the other hand there were people saying that my opinion will make me burn in hell, so there you are.
Joking aside, I already stated that I do not think that people of faith are stupid or weak. I thought my post was clear on that, but let me repeat myself: I do not believe that religious people are not smart enough to think for themselves, or not strong enough to have confidence in themselves.
What I think is that they find comfort in the thought that the universe is built for a purpose, that something greater look after you with love and compassion, that in the end the good are rewarded and the wicked are punished, and that their life has a meaning in the grand scheme of think. We are puny and frail things in a vast, cold and uncaring universe, and it is very powerful and comforting to think that we are not alone in the night (sorry the Babylon Fiveism).
I mean, every person have to find comfort in something: I, for one, do find it in the though that with science and reason we can solve everything but we never will, since the universe is so vast, mysterious, surprising and filled with possibilities that we will never run out of new questions and new challenges. I do not know if that it is true, but I truly hope so. I find comfort in the thought that, since nothing matters, everything matters, from the smallest particle of matter to the majestic clusters of galaxies, and that here we are, between dust and stars, the Universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out (another B5 quote, sorry). I find comfort in the tought we can find love, happiness and purpose in our life, even withot gods looking upon us.
Look, everyone of us find comfort in different things, but the fact that we like things alone does not make them true. In my opinion the only difference between the religious worldview and the materialist worldview, is that materialism could stand up to the test of reality, so I choose materialism, since testability is important to me to distinguish between true and false.
I do accept the possibility that there is a God, but in the end I find that possibility highly unlikely. I respect other's opinion on that, and I do not wish to attack anyone personally. I just told my opinion, and I explained why I think disagree with other. To disagree is not to disrespect.
Sorry, maybe I did not phrased myself very clearly: I did not want to imply that people tried to impose their view on me: here we are just discussing our respective positions.
What I mean is that I do not like when people share their beliefs as they are fact. "I believe in God" is cool in my view, "God exists and I have proof of that " is not. If someone had tangible, incontrovertible proofs, everyone would believe in just one single true religion, and it will be no more a matter of faith but a matter of fact . No one have done that in the history of man, and as such I doubt every time I hear such statements.
You know fire is hot, and so you needn't to convince anyone of that. On the contrary, you believe God (or gods) exists, and as such many would disagree with you.
I am an Atheist ... therefore I chose the fourth option.
I keep in mind the possibility though that 'something' (intelligent or not) 'might' be behind the creation of the universe and all, but I don't actually believe in it ... and holding an open mind towards a lone possibility does not make me a believer/theist as I am very anti religion/theism.
I also don't have a problem with people who are religiously inclined and I can have a conversation with them about such subjects as long as they present their arguments as their own opinions.
I do the same ... and I do not shove my own convictions down other people's throat as the only correct ones (which I also expect of others if we are discussing about such topics).
In any case, it is not strange to see people who are religious to like Trek or are Trek fans ... although Trek is just a TV show, it does hold compelling evidence against theism (even though the writers began to slowly introduce it yet again which bugged me to a degree and ruined the show in some aspects for me).
I personally perceive religion (or belief of any kind in a so called 'god') as a highly antiquated aspect of humanity that created far more damage to us from it's conception to begin with.
From what I know, Atheist are in a minority if we are looking at the whole picture, not majority.
I keep in mind the possibility though that 'something' (intelligent or not) 'might' be behind the creation of the universe and all, but I don't actually believe in it ... and holding an open mind towards a lone possibility does not make me a believer/theist as I am very anti religion/theism.
I also don't have a problem with people who are religiously inclined and I can have a conversation with them about such subjects as long as they present their arguments as their own opinions.
I do the same ... and I do not shove my own convictions down other people's throat as the only correct ones (which I also expect of others if we are discussing about such topics).
In any case, it is not strange to see people who are religious to like Trek or are Trek fans ... although Trek is just a TV show, it does hold compelling evidence against theism (even though the writers began to slowly introduce it yet again which bugged me to a degree and ruined the show in some aspects for me).
I personally perceive religion (or belief of any kind in a so called 'god') as a highly antiquated aspect of humanity that created far more damage to us from it's conception to begin with.
From what I know, Atheist are in a minority if we are looking at the whole picture, not majority.
I put none of the above.
My personal contemplation of god is not the separate entity religions make their respective gods out to be but more as combination of all things.
It is hard to describe so I will make my best effort. I view the universe, time, life and all the things that exist, seen or unseen, known or unknown as a single functioning entity. a human, a star, a galaxy, an atom are all part of that. I suppose it is analgous to blood cells, brain cells, organs all functioning as part os us. Each serving a purpose.
In this interpretation god (or the final product of the universe itself) becomes as much a part of us and all things as we are of it.
If you sit too close to the television you see only a few pixels of light, but when you pull back each pixel of light forms a complete picture.
Not sure if that makes any sense but decribing your image of god isnt easy lol :P
My personal contemplation of god is not the separate entity religions make their respective gods out to be but more as combination of all things.
It is hard to describe so I will make my best effort. I view the universe, time, life and all the things that exist, seen or unseen, known or unknown as a single functioning entity. a human, a star, a galaxy, an atom are all part of that. I suppose it is analgous to blood cells, brain cells, organs all functioning as part os us. Each serving a purpose.
In this interpretation god (or the final product of the universe itself) becomes as much a part of us and all things as we are of it.
If you sit too close to the television you see only a few pixels of light, but when you pull back each pixel of light forms a complete picture.
Not sure if that makes any sense but decribing your image of god isnt easy lol :P
Einstein and the like believed in God. Maybe god doesn't exist in your future because of you, like in 'All Good Things' when things didn't quite happen for humanity the way it was supposed to. Picard prevented Humanity from being created. I think the universe needs a God.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Reminds of a George Carlin rant about God that goes along the same lines and ends with, "But He loves you."
I voted number three, though that doesn't mean I don't believe in God. It's just a question of who created the creator?
I hope God has a sense of humor. At this point, it's my only chance.
Can you really trust the Gospel?
For anyone seriously interested, I have information that may have great significance. It's something that happened to me personally, that has convinced me Christianity is true.
My experience
I have pretty much always believed in the supernatural, and therefore a supreme being — but as an opinion, rather than a faith or a religion. (All my friends and faimly were atheist, and I'd never been to church.) I would occasionally pray, in case anyone was listening. And the moral teachings of Jesus really impressed me (whoever he was). Although I wasn't entirely sure whether to really believe his claims of divinity or not. It was all definitely more of an opinion than a faith.
That all changed for me one day about 5 years ago. I prayed to God and told him I didn't know what to believe in, or which religion was right. I'd never really asked him this before, but at the time I was dating a Buddhist, and had new-found Muslim and Hindu friends, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses. So the question of which faith (if any) to trust was becoming more and more of a pressing issue to me.
I put it to God that he tells us to worship only one God in the Old Testament, but believing in Jesus seemed contrary to that. There were other apparent contradictions, which all made it hard to really believe in Jesus. I voiced this and all my concerns and confusion, and it all ended up with the simple question: "I don't want to die; how can I have eternal life?"
My prayer was sincere, although I wasn't really expecting an answer. But (IMHO) I got one… after asking the question, I immediately saw the shape of a cross. The image was not physical — rather it was in my eyes, similar to the random blobs you see when you stare at a bright light then look away; only far brighter and extremely clear, and perfectly proportioned, with crisp, sharp corners. The image remained whether I closed my eyes or opened them and was by far the brightest thing I have (and could) ever see with my eyes closed.
The image stayed with me for what seemed to be at least 10 minutes, possibly a lot longer. It filled, I would say, about half of the height of my field of view; right in the centre. Each of the three top parts were equal in length, and the bottom part was exactly twice as long as the other three parts. Of course, I immediately thanked God for his answer. It was a strange feeling: somewhat exciting, and somewhat scary. I was laughing a little, too.
I have to say that I don't drink or take drugs, and had never hallucenated or seen anything unusual before. And although it was night time, I was fully awake. I give you my word that this is the absolute truth. The faith that I now have is based on what Christ taught, and he taught the way of truth, so I would never lie in his name. That would be contrary to everything I believe in.
My new-found faith
Since this happened to me, I have changed a lot. I have absolute faith in Chrisitanity, and have committed my life to Christ and been baptised. My faith is far more than a mere opinion, or even a belief; it's a trust. It's about giving and trusting every part of my life to God, and through it I have found great joy and peace, and become a different person. I have given things up that I loved — but now I realise life is so much better without them. That is all through trust.
A lot of people think being a Christian is about going to church and being good and crossing your fingers that you'll get into heaven, but what I have been discovering in the Gospel is very different to that.
Fundamental to my faith is not thinking of myself as 'better' than others as I used to, so I no longer look down on anyone, rather I love all other people as myself. God is absolutely pure and perfect, so by his perfect standards, no human is good, but he loves us all equally. I try to avoid sin in order to live a fuller life closer to God, and to please him, but no amount of goodness can ever get me into heaven — God has already granted free access to heaven for anyone who acccepts it, and that is through the death of Jesus, and I believe it's the only way.
Sorry if this sounds all too preachy. I'm not trying to be, just explaining the development of my faith (which is the point of this thread, right?). I'm hoping someone out there will find it of value.
I'm not here to argue, especially about historial documents. I've wasted time debating these things in the past and it seems to get nowhere, it just goes round and round and nobody ever changes their opinion on anything! It can also lead to a lot of nastiness and name-calling, which I have absolutely no interest in. I am a humble friend to everyone.
I really just wanted to share my own experience of seeing the cross — which cannot be denied, because I saw it. Whether it actually 'proves' Christianity is true, well, that is something you can only decide for yourself. I decided it does, and how life has improved for me since then only seems to back it up.
If anyone wants to hear more of my waffling, you're welcome to PM me. I will gladly answer any question, from anyone, if you are sincerely interested. Or anyone just wants to talk about anything at all… I am your friend (no matter what names you call me)
Love, Dizzy
For anyone seriously interested, I have information that may have great significance. It's something that happened to me personally, that has convinced me Christianity is true.
My experience
I have pretty much always believed in the supernatural, and therefore a supreme being — but as an opinion, rather than a faith or a religion. (All my friends and faimly were atheist, and I'd never been to church.) I would occasionally pray, in case anyone was listening. And the moral teachings of Jesus really impressed me (whoever he was). Although I wasn't entirely sure whether to really believe his claims of divinity or not. It was all definitely more of an opinion than a faith.
That all changed for me one day about 5 years ago. I prayed to God and told him I didn't know what to believe in, or which religion was right. I'd never really asked him this before, but at the time I was dating a Buddhist, and had new-found Muslim and Hindu friends, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses. So the question of which faith (if any) to trust was becoming more and more of a pressing issue to me.
I put it to God that he tells us to worship only one God in the Old Testament, but believing in Jesus seemed contrary to that. There were other apparent contradictions, which all made it hard to really believe in Jesus. I voiced this and all my concerns and confusion, and it all ended up with the simple question: "I don't want to die; how can I have eternal life?"
My prayer was sincere, although I wasn't really expecting an answer. But (IMHO) I got one… after asking the question, I immediately saw the shape of a cross. The image was not physical — rather it was in my eyes, similar to the random blobs you see when you stare at a bright light then look away; only far brighter and extremely clear, and perfectly proportioned, with crisp, sharp corners. The image remained whether I closed my eyes or opened them and was by far the brightest thing I have (and could) ever see with my eyes closed.
The image stayed with me for what seemed to be at least 10 minutes, possibly a lot longer. It filled, I would say, about half of the height of my field of view; right in the centre. Each of the three top parts were equal in length, and the bottom part was exactly twice as long as the other three parts. Of course, I immediately thanked God for his answer. It was a strange feeling: somewhat exciting, and somewhat scary. I was laughing a little, too.
I have to say that I don't drink or take drugs, and had never hallucenated or seen anything unusual before. And although it was night time, I was fully awake. I give you my word that this is the absolute truth. The faith that I now have is based on what Christ taught, and he taught the way of truth, so I would never lie in his name. That would be contrary to everything I believe in.
My new-found faith
Since this happened to me, I have changed a lot. I have absolute faith in Chrisitanity, and have committed my life to Christ and been baptised. My faith is far more than a mere opinion, or even a belief; it's a trust. It's about giving and trusting every part of my life to God, and through it I have found great joy and peace, and become a different person. I have given things up that I loved — but now I realise life is so much better without them. That is all through trust.
A lot of people think being a Christian is about going to church and being good and crossing your fingers that you'll get into heaven, but what I have been discovering in the Gospel is very different to that.
Fundamental to my faith is not thinking of myself as 'better' than others as I used to, so I no longer look down on anyone, rather I love all other people as myself. God is absolutely pure and perfect, so by his perfect standards, no human is good, but he loves us all equally. I try to avoid sin in order to live a fuller life closer to God, and to please him, but no amount of goodness can ever get me into heaven — God has already granted free access to heaven for anyone who acccepts it, and that is through the death of Jesus, and I believe it's the only way.
Sorry if this sounds all too preachy. I'm not trying to be, just explaining the development of my faith (which is the point of this thread, right?). I'm hoping someone out there will find it of value.
I'm not here to argue, especially about historial documents. I've wasted time debating these things in the past and it seems to get nowhere, it just goes round and round and nobody ever changes their opinion on anything! It can also lead to a lot of nastiness and name-calling, which I have absolutely no interest in. I am a humble friend to everyone.
I really just wanted to share my own experience of seeing the cross — which cannot be denied, because I saw it. Whether it actually 'proves' Christianity is true, well, that is something you can only decide for yourself. I decided it does, and how life has improved for me since then only seems to back it up.
If anyone wants to hear more of my waffling, you're welcome to PM me. I will gladly answer any question, from anyone, if you are sincerely interested. Or anyone just wants to talk about anything at all… I am your friend (no matter what names you call me)
Love, Dizzy
DizzyMan, yours is an extremely interesting post, so thank you for sharing that.
I'm happy that your life has improved because you espoused religion. Anything that gives happiness is cool for me. All I can say is that, in my opinion, your life has improved since you found direction, and the fact that this direction is given by religion is only accessory. But since religion is where you found your peace, I'll respect that.
And you were not preachy at all... well, not more than me, at least!
Yeah. I'm always irked when that lie is repeated ad nauseam. It all started with that "God doesn't play dice" quote. Einstein was agnostic. I know Wiki is not the best of source, but still there are some quotation.
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."
- Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950.
"Einstein defined his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshiped a Judeo-Christian god: 'It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it'."
- Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman (eds) (1981). Albert Einstein, The Human Side. Princeton University Press, 43.
And there are several other statement of this.
Well, if you count the fact that there are people that think that the world is flat now...
That's also something of a modern myth as was Einstein's belief. Medieval scholars had no problem with a round earth--in fact, the "flat earthers" were only one school of scholarship--and by no means the dominant school. The point of contention of pre-Columbus scholars wasn't that the world was flat--rather it was that a ship sailing west would not be able to make landfall before running out of food and water. And that was a legitimate argument--Columbus literally made landfall running on fumes--he'd run out of provisions and his crew was near mutiny. Also, Nicholas of Cusa in the 15th century promulgated such notions as the Earth rotating on its axis and the Earth and Sun moving in space.
Our medieval ancestors weren't as dumb as we might think they were. In fact, you can make the case that they were actually a pretty bright group.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
It doesn't matter one bit though, the whole concept that just when some people believe in something somehow makes that something real, or right, is patently ridiculous.
If Einstein, or Hawking, believed in Zeus and the Greek pantheon, does that means Zeus and the Greek pantheon is real?
If Einstein, or Hawking, believed in Zeus and the Greek pantheon, does that means Zeus and the Greek pantheon is real?
Plus, Einstein's view of God was nebulous at best. Indicators are that he meant it as a crude metaphor for the totality of natural laws rather than as some alternately murderous and dewey eyed alpha male silverback in the sky.
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