Poll: Do Star Trek fans believe in a Supreme Being?

[TheLonelySquire]

3D Master said:

TheLonelySquire said:

3D Master said:

GreenBlood said:
What would Jesus do?

Nothing, seeing as the guy didn't exist.

He exists/existed for me, you and everyone else, whether you believe it or not.

Question: "Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?"

Answer: Typically when this question is asked, the person asking qualifies the question with "outside of the Bible." We do not grant this idea that the Bible cannot be considered a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. The New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels in the second century A.D., 100+ years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which we strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

It is also important to recognize that in 70 A.D., the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground! We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eye-witnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.

Considering the fact that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant backwater area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources.

Wow. The bible and people believing shortly after a guy supposedly living is proves he exists now... I guess the Greek christ-figure Dyonisis was a real guy as well then; which by extension means that Zeus, Ares, and the lot are real too. Great going, you've just proven that every single mythological figure ever was and is a true being... which incidentally proves the bible wrong, because now there are lots of real gods, when the bible says there's only one, and his son and a ghost.

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats. . . . He was [the] Christ . . . he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him." One version reads, "At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

Which every scholar worth his salt knows is a blatant fabrication by Christians who lived later. In all his other writings, Josephus is going on about all the christ-figures and so-called messiahs of the time as being idiots, lunatics and people who all around made things worse rather than better. For him to suddenly step back from that position when it suddenly comes to another one of those, makes no sense whatsoever. The style of this writing, is also different that the rest and has language constructs of later times than he lived.

In conclusion, there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and Biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the 12 apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

In conclusion, there is not a single piece of worthwhile evidence that he ever lived for real.

Your contention is utterly ridiculous. Even nutcases on the left agree that historical evidence and writings OUTSIDE of the Bible corroborate His existance.

Whether you believe in His diety or not is another matter. You needn't though, as that part only has your eternal soul riding on it.

 

[1001001]

I selected #2.

I'm sort of a Prime Mover guy myself.

 

[iguana_tonante]

TheLonelySquire said:

3D Master said:
In conclusion, there is not a single piece of worthwhile evidence that he ever lived for real.

Your contention is utterly ridiculous. Even nutcases on the left agree that historical evidence and writings OUTSIDE of the Bible corroborate His existance.

Well, it's not like 3D Master put forward a particularly crazy opinion, so no need of "nutcase" accusation. Some question are been raised by historians on the historicity of Jesus, even if the majority do believe than a man thus named really existed at the time, an unorthodox rabbi that had some problem with the Pharisee establishment.

Whether you believe in His diety or not is another matter. You needn't though, as that part only has your eternal soul riding on it.

Is that... a threat?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

TheLonelySquire said:
Your contention is utterly ridiculous. Even nutcases on the left agree that historical evidence and writings OUTSIDE of the Bible corroborate His existance.

Whether you believe in His diety or not is another matter. You needn't though, as that part only has your eternal soul riding on it.

Can we not make this personal? I'm giving this thread a lot of leeway to stay in GTD. But if debate starts being about posters or their beliefs (or their immortal soul), I'm going to close it down.

 

[AJBryant]

seigezunt said:
Second, the Josephus tesimony is controversial, especially the part saying "he was the Christ." It seems doubtful that Josephus, who was not a Xian, would announce this out of nowhere.

Umm, you DO realize that Josephus was Jewish, and the concept of the Christ (Greek for "Messiah") was at its heart a Jewish concept, right?

Alidar Jarok said:
Can we not make this personal? I'm giving this thread a lot of leeway to stay in GTD. But if debate starts being about posters or their beliefs (or their immortal soul), I'm going to close it down.

Frankly, it's been about posters and their beliefs since the thread began.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, but its not about whether those beliefs are right or wrong and I don't want it to be. You can go the the Neutral Zone to discuss that.

 

[Smiley]

I'm a Catholic, and #1 comes closest to my beliefs.

I don't find it surprising at all that many Trek fans do believe in God or are unsure. These shows and movies are very entertaining. If we only watched things that had all of the characters upholding our values and beliefs all of the time, the percentage of material we could watch would be negligible.

 

[seigezunt]

AJBryant said:

seigezunt said:
Second, the Josephus tesimony is controversial, especially the part saying "he was the Christ." It seems doubtful that Josephus, who was not a Xian, would announce this out of nowhere.

Umm, you DO realize that Josephus was Jewish, and the concept of the Christ (Greek for "Messiah") was at its heart a Jewish concept, right?

Yes, I am fully aware that the Messiah is Jewish concept, and how it was perverted into a man/god idea. But Josephus was a Jew, and not a declared Xian, so he wouldn't declare the nazarene being the Messiah in one little sentence, and then not declare it elsewhere in big letters. It sticks out like a sore thumb, and is an obvious insertion by a Xian writer.

 

[Vulcanian]

I believe that a concious, intelligent Supreme Being is responsible for the creation of the universe, and that he looks after all of creation.

My life is proof that the God of the Bible exists.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Vulcanian said:
My life is proof that the God of the Bible exists.

How so?

 

[RyanKCR]

dalehoppert said:
I am a born-again Christian believer... Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I voted for number one.

Chalk up another one for this same option. Heck, I've even seen Christ.

 

[Saxman1]

FatherRob said:
I tend to fall into the #1 with a dash of #2... but being steeped in theology, I tend to find none of the nuance necessary in the above-proffered options that actually hit the nail on the head.

I believe in a real God who exists and cares for creation, who knows the beginning and the end of all things, but who respects our free will.

Rob+

Works for me. I am a liberal Catholic (I know, it seems a contradiction in terms) who DOESN'T believe in a Genie/God who grants magic wishes if we promise to be good. I also think a good Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc. will get into heaven. Just don't tell the Pope I said that!

 

[GreenBlood]

In conclusion, there is not a single piece of worthwhile evidence that he ever lived for real.

And this, my friend, is where FAITH comes in.

 

[iguana_tonante]

RyanKCR said:
Chalk up another one for this same option. Heck, I've even seen Christ.

Did you ask him how Elvis is doing?

GreenBlood said:

In conclusion, there is not a single piece of worthwhile evidence that he ever lived for real.

And this, my friend, is where FAITH comes in.

Faith, I do not have a problem with that. Problems may come when people try to sold me beliefs as facts

 

[seigezunt]

I'm impressed that this thread hasn't been bumped to TNZ yet. Jolly good, folks!

 

[Vulcanian]

iguana_tonante said:

Vulcanian said:
My life is proof that the God of the Bible exists.

How so?

It's a long story, man :thumbsup:

 

[cultcross]

3D Master said:

Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the 12 apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

In conclusion, there is not a single piece of worthwhile evidence that he ever lived for real.

Even though it means I'm agreeing with TLS (oh look, a flying pig!), It is worth you re-examining this last point, which you shouldn't dismiss too lightly. Throughout history there have been examples of people who die for things they beleive to be true. 9/11 is one such example. But people do not die for things they know to be a lie. These people were in a position to know, first-hand, whether the whole thing was a crock of shit. And they endured torture and the most gruesome deaths the Roman Empire could devise for maintaining that it was true.
Conclusive evidence in itself? Of course not. But it calls for explanation.

 

[RyanKCR]

iguana_tonante said:

RyanKCR said:
Chalk up another one for this same option. Heck, I've even seen Christ.

Did you ask him how Elvis is doing?

Since Elvis had been only dead a few months at the time, He didn't have much to say about him.

 

[captcalhoun]

"Know him? Shit, nigger owes me ten bucks!"

 

[MyCylon]

^