Playing with the refit Enterprise...

[Gagarin]

Isn't the reactor 1:1 - so where's the huge, huge tank of antimatter? We know the antimatter is in bottles and containment do-higgers and it's a bit smaller than the big tank. I think the linear intermix shaft in TMP is a big tube of scary antimatter, dilithium particles, and matter thats in perpetual reaction, with more reactants getting fed up the system. The whole thing is the reactor and the chain reaction starts at the bottom. It's not a matter/antimatter collidor, more like a big scary stew. Hence the radiation suits. =) And under normal conditions, the energy from that also feeds the impulse engine.

There's no connection between the impulse engines (other than normal EPS taps perhaps?) and the matter-antimatter reactor in the Enterprise-D, so perhaps they needed all that slush for the impulse engines.

I'm not saying the TMP Enterprise doesn't need tanks, I'm just saying there COULD be an in-universe explanation for why they aren't gigantic. Also... couldn't the tanks be above the main engineering area? Various cutaways I've seen have about a deck of high over most of that space.

 

[MarianLH]

Placing dueterium tanks in the primary hull would put them at the far end of the entire shaft from the antimatter storage at the bottom. That doesn't sound workable to me.

The reactor and antimatter storage are both at the bottom of the shaft, AFAIK matter storage needs to be near there too. If there isn't room, that's hardly a first for the TMP Enterprise, let alone Star Trek in general. But I don't see why room can't be found. As others have pointed out here in the past, the cutaway only shows the centerline. Couldn't there be a half a ring--or more--of tankage extending to the sides?


Marian

 

[Gagarin]

Placing dueterium tanks in the primary hull would put them at the far end of the entire shaft from the antimatter storage at the bottom. That doesn't sound workable to me.

The reactor and antimatter storage are both at the bottom of the shaft, AFAIK matter storage needs to be near there too. If there isn't room, that's hardly a first for the TMP Enterprise, let alone Star Trek in general. But I don't see why room can't be found. As others have pointed out here in the past, the cutaway only shows the centerline. Couldn't there be a half a ring--or more--of tankage extending to the sides?


Marian

While yes, another section view would be helpful, I don't understand your requirments placed upon matter storage.

Dueterium is the primary fuel for the impulse engines while under auxilary power. Also, fuel lines could easily feed dueterium toward the bottom. They'll still have fuel pumps in the 23rd century. And they do like pipes on Kirk's Enterprise. Or dueterium could be fed into the shaft from the top, constantly refueling / topping it off. There could be several conduits in the shaft. The glowy part might just be the coolant.

I'm thinking of the intermix shaft as something NOT like the 'warp core' we see latter on.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Saquist

I agree, it looks a lot better without the outboard grilles.

 

[Warped9]

This could be more than tweaking. On the Hobbytalk forums they're discussing a model someone built that is an updated version of the original submarine Seaview from Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea. It is stunning in how it updates the look without losing one iota of the original's appeal.

I'd love to have seen that done with the TOS E as the refit we didn't get.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Well, thanks to that cutaway poster, as well as all the behind-the-scenes drawings, the refit is pretty well set, for better or worse.

The E-A, on the other hand, has a different engine layout (as evidenced by their using the E-D's engine room on screen), so the jury is still out on that one (despite the reuse of the cutaway poster in marketing). So, a shorter hangar bay, less cavernous interior, and proper slush tanks along the upper part of the secondary hull are certainly on the table.

 

[Gagarin]

Well, thanks to that cutaway poster, as well as all the behind-the-scenes drawings, the refit is pretty well set, for better or worse.

Well, I don't think that's ever stopped us before.

 

[MarianLH]

I'm thinking of the intermix shaft as something NOT like the 'warp core' we see latter on.

I've always thought that too, which is exactly why I didn't see putting the matter and antimatter at opposite ends of the shaft, TNG-style.

The little box at the bottom of the shaft in the cutaway is the reactor, TMP's equivalent of the warp core, and the big glowy shaft running up through the Engineering set is just a conduit, transferring the "intermix" from the reactor to the warp and impulse engines.

I know you already know that; I'm just spelling it out for the sake of clarity.

While yes, another section view would be helpful, I don't understand your requirments placed upon matter storage.

Put simply, placing the reactor and the reactor fuel at opposite ends of the ship from each other seems awkward and inefficient to me. Long fuel lines use up a lot of volume and mass that you could save by just putting the tanks closer to the reactor. Plus, the longer the fuel lines, the better the chances of them being severed by some kind of damage.

You're right that the auxiliary power plants would also need fuel though.


Marian

 

[Gagarin]

I'm thinking of the intermix shaft as something NOT like the 'warp core' we see latter on.

I've always thought that too, which is exactly why I didn't see putting the matter and antimatter at opposite ends of the shaft, TNG-style.

The little box at the bottom of the shaft in the cutaway is the reactor, TMP's equivalent of the warp core, and the big glowy shaft running up through the Engineering set is just a conduit, transferring the "intermix" from the reactor to the warp and impulse engines.

I know you already know that; I'm just spelling it out for the sake of clarity.

While yes, another section view would be helpful, I don't understand your requirments placed upon matter storage.

Put simply, placing the reactor and the reactor fuel at opposite ends of the ship from each other seems awkward and inefficient to me. Long fuel lines use up a lot of volume and mass that you could save by just putting the tanks closer to the reactor. Plus, the longer the fuel lines, the better the chances of them being severed by some kind of damage.

You're right that the auxiliary power plants would also need fuel though.


Marian

Well you make good points.

But I don't see that the intermix chamber as just a power conduit, I see it as a reaction starting on the bottom, and it continues to spread and more reactants are introduced into it - growing and growing, causing more reactions to happen. Hence the need for the right 'formula' (?). The entire shaft could be filled with fuel when it leaves Spacedock/Drydock, with dillithium in each segment. Basically, that shaft could be a 'tank' in itself. The longer the segment of shaft you have, the more power you can generate. Then I imagine a CVN-style refueling that's needed to replenish the dillithium in each segment as it's depleted - which would take 5 - 10 years. It decays evenly over time, even under high loads, but you need an absolutely insane amount of dilithium to build on of these things. But you don't burn through it like a cheap cigarette if you run at high warp...unlike the old Connies. But that's my personal fantasy. =)

In the event of fuel lines being damaged, it sounds like an event where auxillary power would be needed. So that's why I preferred tanks being near the impulse engines instead of having to pump the fuel up in an emergency situation where the generators are needed. Due to reason that there should be several tanks.

I once had the notion that surrounding the navigational deflector, the dotted-line of blue circling it, were hydrogen collectors / scoops.

I'm not sure how MUCH fuel would be needed (liters/second... and there would be more fuel used up in a fusion reactor I imagine than an antimatter reactor), but I didn't envision very thick pipes so hopefully it wouldn't take up that much room. But it's one of the reasons why I'd make the neck a bit thicker --- inside I just see a need for a lot of plumbing going through there, especially with the "A" ship.

 

[T'Girl]

I'm not sure how MUCH fuel would be needed (liters/second)

As I understand it, one gram of antimatter is equal in energy to a 43 kilo-ton atomic bomb. One ounce is about 2.7 mega-tons.

What doesn't make sense to me is the need for deuterium in the matter / antimatter reaction. You would need deuterium for a fusion reaction (like in the impulse engines), but for a annihilation reaction with antimatter all you would need is the counterpart to what ever type of antimatter you are employing. If it's anti-hydrogen use hydrogen. If it's anti-oxygen then the counterpart would be oxygen. It would be lot easier for a bussard collector to gather plain hydrogen to feed into a storage tank, than to gather first hydrogen, separate out the deuterium and then discard the majority of the hydrogen you had previously gathered.

 

[Science Officer]

The TMP Enterprise is my favourite design, but it could do with a little tweaking. My suggestions would be:

1. Redo the curvature of the bottom of the saucer, so that it contains two full decks across its diameter. Try to keep the saucer silhouette as close to the original as possible. This should increase deck space quite nicely.
2. Sort out all the spotlights. Anyone working with CGI models is very likely to come across problems getting the saucer's illumination to work from sources. The production lit the ship externally via dental mirrors.
3. Thicken the base of the warp pylons slightly. Keep the inner face straight. You see this with most modern passenger aircraft.
4. Secondary hull docking hatches. Move them down onto the central axis of the hull. This is so a shuttle pod can dock horizontally. At the moment it has to dock at an angle - the floor of the SP is at an angle to the floor of the Enterprise deck.
5. Doing (4) disrupts the "UFOF" go fast stripe. Remove it and just go for NCC-1701 USS ENTERPRISE. A bit more military looking.
6. Tweak the neck connecting primary and seconday hulls. The green stripe is curved and I think it should be totally straight. Then taper the neck around it.
7. Rescale the Enterprise so that humans can fit in it correctly. As it stands at 305m, I don't think you can have two decks of windows on the saucer rim - unless crewed by Hobbits.
8. Redo the texture. The texture consists of too many random shades on too many scales. Replace the Aztec pattern - what about an interlocking H pattern (dim 4x3)?

 

[Albertese]

...

[*]Sort out all the spotlights. Anyone working with CGI models is very likely to come across problems getting the saucer's illumination to work from sources. The production lit the ship externally via dental mirrors.

Okay, this is super SUPER SUPER nitpicky. And I saw that same interview you guys did where the effects guys said they used dental mirrors. But having seen a photo of their mirror stands, I just can't help it but to say that those were inspection mirrors for looking a screw on the back side of a car's engine or other tight spots. This is obvious because they have swivels on them. I work in the dental business and every dental mirror I've seen is set on a permanent angle. Sorry about that. I'm sure nobody cares, but I just couldn't keep it in any longer.

...

[*]Doing (4) disrupts the "UFOF" go fast stripe. Remove it and just go for NCC-1701 USS ENTERPRISE. A bit more military looking.

I, for one, love that starships have "go fast stripes." If they were gone, I think the world be a lesser place.

...

[*]Rescale the Enterprise so that humans can fit in it correctly. As it stands at 305m, I don't think you can have two decks of windows on the saucer rim - unless crewed by Hobbits.

Or those fez wearing little gold dudes who were putting the colored marshmallows into their drinks in "Journey to Babel." They'd fit comfortable I'm sure.

--Alex

 

[Science Officer]

...
[*]Sort out all the spotlights. Anyone working with CGI models is very likely to come across problems getting the saucer's illumination to work from sources. The production lit the ship externally via dental mirrors.

Okay, this is super SUPER SUPER nitpicky. And I saw that same interview you guys did where the effects guys said they used dental mirrors. But having seen a photo of their mirror stands, I just can't help it but to say that those were inspection mirrors for looking a screw on the back side of a car's engine or other tight spots. This is obvious because they have swivels on them. I work in the dental business and every dental mirror I've seen is set on a permanent angle. Sorry about that. I'm sure nobody cares, but I just couldn't keep it in any longer.

...
[*]Doing (4) disrupts the "UFOF" go fast stripe. Remove it and just go for NCC-1701 USS ENTERPRISE. A bit more military looking.

I, for one, love that starships have "go fast stripes." If they were gone, I think the world be a lesser place.

...
[*]Rescale the Enterprise so that humans can fit in it correctly. As it stands at 305m, I don't think you can have two decks of windows on the saucer rim - unless crewed by Hobbits.

Or those fez wearing little gold dudes who were putting the colored marshmallows into their drinks in "Journey to Babel." They'd fit comfortable I'm sure.

--Alex

No that's fine. I found out how the model was lit by looking at an article on Drex Files a while back. They referred to dental mirrors - but if they're not, they're not!

Back to the original point - because the model was lit by an external light source via mirrors you're led to think that the illumination area is a distorted oval. If you light the saucer from the correct locations, the results are quite different. The closest I've got to date is shown in the two images below.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/103/saucerwithspotlightson.jpg
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2835/navdomewithspotlightson.jpg

Rather than one light source for each of the 3 original spotlights, I use 3 smaller lights at different angles and place them as low as possible in the spotlight housing. Oh and the saucer bottom has to be slightly reprofiled! The top of the saucer is really, really difficult, because the top of deck 2 actually blocks the light from reaching the words USS ENTERPRISE. I haven't had much success there. In both cases the spotlight housings need to be redesigned to be slightly further away from the saucer centre and the planes of the decks.

Unfortunately I haven't had any time over the last 5 months to work on the model. But if I could get this right, I'd be one very satisfied bloke.

Cheers,

S.O.

 

[Albertese]

...

The closest I've got to date is shown in the two images below.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/103/saucerwithspotlightson.jpg
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2835/navdomewithspotlightson.jpg

...

Dang. That's actually super cool.

--Alex

 

[Science Officer]

...

The closest I've got to date is shown in the two images below.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/103/saucerwithspotlightson.jpg
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2835/navdomewithspotlightson.jpg

...

Dang. That's actually super cool.

--Alex

Thanks Alex,

The effect wasn't so much by design as by tweaking away with number of lights, positions, angles and gels. It's a delicate balance - get it slightly out and you end up with too little illumination on the NCC-1701 decal or over-illuminating the centre section of the saucer.

IF I get any time this weekend, I'll try to properly integrate my new saucer bottom and lights into the model. But I think it will look a little strange because I'll be using illumination from 3 small invisible spotlights and making it look like it's come from one large spotlight.

I have a thread somewhere I'll start posting to when I have something.

I've failed to work out a design using smaller spotlights. Anyone got any ideas?

Cheers,

S.O.

 

[publiusr]

I'd like to see more modifications to the refit, and looked to have originally been the case with JJ's early ideas for a refit, as per the Titan magazine articles.

 

[Chrisisall]

Bacically the only thing I would change are the engines and pylons to something like this sketch. (Was trying to keep the same flavor as the actual TMP version, only with round nacelles, ala TOS).

Wow, that's AWESOME!!! I mean, really REALLY awesome! I'd have made the nacelles a bit more ample, though...

 

[goose814]

This is what I came up with several years ago:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/goose814/Final01.jpg

Currently, it is in work using the 1/350 PL Refit kit. It mainly consists of the Refit as originally constructed combined with some elements as it is now. I wanted to try to keep it as simple as possible, similar to the TOS Enterprise. Also, I'm not fond of lighting just for the sake of looking cool, so the only lit items are the windows, navigation/position lights, impulse engines, and inboard side of warp engines. In addition, the color is the same gray as the TOS Enterprise. Other elements that may be hard to see is the aft photon torpedo tube at the rear base of the dorsal, and the window in the captain's ready room where the bridge docking port used to be. And thanks go to Forbin for his suggestion, I revised the outboard sides of the warp engines. I really like that aspect and never thought of doing that. Although not shown, the graphics will be similar to what the Refit has with the penant stripes being as originally conceived shown here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/goose814/de_3.jpg

Gus

 

[Kaiser]

are you the one that had a model on Starship modeler of this?

if so i thought it was cool

 

[CDR6]

Bacically the only thing I would change are the engines and pylons to something like this sketch. (Was trying to keep the same flavor as the actual TMP version, only with round nacelles, ala TOS).

Wow, that's AWESOME!!! I mean, really REALLY awesome! I'd have made the nacelles a bit more ample, though...

Oh yeah, got a love a nice set of ample nacelles!

This was a throw-together drawing with blocks from other work etc, quick and dirty as it were. There was no real attempt at scale, just wanted to get close, visually, to the idea.

-Chuck