I tend to agree. I think I've posted elsewhere her that, IMO, Roddenberry accomplished what he accomplished in spite of who he was, not because of who he was.
Pike's "woman on the bridge" line
- Thread starter Methuselah Flint
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I tend to agree. I think I've posted elsewhere her that, IMO, Roddenberry accomplished what he accomplished in spite of who he was, not because of who he was.
Did it fall flat in the 60s when it was written? Hard to tell since the pilot never aired. Did anyone here see The Cage at conventions in the 70s? Did it fall flat then?
All these complaints from people who think the line was awkward, fell flat, sexist, etc... Is this a case of time changing perception? It's not fair to judge a 1964 piece of dialog through the lens of decades later progress.
I saw GR present it in Detroit in ‘80 or ‘81; there was a ripple of laughter along the lines of “Ooh, burn.” It was a different time.
Yeah, I'm coming around to that. As some others have implied, the audience was supposed to get two hits from the line:
1) "Whoa, in the future women are serving on ships right alongside men!"
2) "That captain is reacting to women onboard the same way I would. He's a regular guy!"
In 1964, the first, pioneering women on combat ships were still 15 years in the future:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_States_Navy#Surface_warfare
That's assuming you don't count Operation: Petticoat, because it didn't happen.
I think it was just stupid because there already was another women besides Number 1 on the bridge. Actually probably more women than there were usually on the TOS or ENT bridges.
I guess the line was put in not to be sexist but just to show how Pike regarded Number 1 as "one of the boys" - not to show that there were usually no women on the bridge. Hence Number 1 fantasies regarding him were to be all the more embarrassing.
I suppose it also pointed out how Pike regarded Colt as a "woman" and Number 1 as a fellow officer. So furthering the Talosians purposes.
I was watching MAFS on Australian TV on Monday and one of the male "contestants" stated that "Women couldn't handle stress like the men on the show. All because of their biology. It was a fact.". Reminded me a bit of the Talosians appraisal of Colt as having "unusually strong female drives". Still got that nonsense on TV 50 tears later.
Doubtful about that, way, WAY doubtful.
Indeed, that's the worldview of a recovering post-WWIII Earth and her colonies in the novel Federation by Garfield and Judith Reeves-Stevens.
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Roddenberry literally wrote this into the description of Rand in the first series bible (supplemental memo dated April 20, 1966):
All you have to do is look at early fandom materials, much of it driven by women, to know that plenty of fans were critical of the program's sexist elements around the time of broadcast.
Three women. Besides Colt and Number One, there is also another, unnamed background female extra right there when he says it.
At the end of the day, it's a deeply sexist line, from a TV pilot made in 1964 that has pretensions towards a more progressive vision, but was being made squarely by, and for, the audience of that time. Ultimately, there's no way to retcon it, no way to excuse it, and no way to ignore it. That is what it is. It's the same as Roddenberry's series bible having multi-racial characters, but the director choosing to cast those as blue eyed, blonde haired white people. Yes, Star Trek had noble intentions. And the series ultimately did go some way towards them. But the pilot was not the series, and reflected very different values.
Things have been changed since the original series. Women can command ships in the movies and the later spin-offs! The only contradictions come from the two prequel series which really shouldn't refute the earlier episodes so I sort of say parallel universe is the only way to answer the question and save our sanity!
JB
JB
I'm trying to remember, was that scene included on "The Menagerie?"
I'd imagine in when they made it they were looking at 2 things. One they probably thought they were being cute. Trying to point out to the audience that women are in positions of authority on a military vessel in the future.
But I think also they wanted to point out that Number 1 had the hots for Captain Pike--hence her disappointed look when he said she was different---and foreshadowing a bit when she was transported in his cage to be one of his 'Eves'. That despite her frosty disposition she had some feelings of attraction to Pike. It was a clumsy attempt at creating tension but thinking back that was probably one of their goals as well.
No.
The fact that it was among "The Cage" scenes cut for time in "The Menagerie" suggests they already knew it wasn't one of the better things Pike had to say. Also note that they cut the part where Spock tries to take the Enterprise and flee Talos IV without rescuing the captain. I think the cuts were for substance as well as time.
That's a good way to put it.
<Removes Operation: Petticoat from his ST Timeline>
I think it was likely more a reflection of the fact that "The Cage" no longer had to function as a pilot for the adventures of Captain Pike. No reason to include a setup for a potential romantic subplot that you know is no longer going to pay off.
This one I agree with. The Cage's Spock abandoning Pike on Talos IV doesn't jibe with the Spock of 13 years later risking his life and career in the hopes of giving his former Captain a bit of happiness.
Yep. They'll realize how emasculated he was at every turn by his female subordinates and see how much of an overcompensation it was on the part of the feminist writing room to use him as a punching-bag.
Is that really how some people see Pike? He seems to me to be someone with a decent but relaxed approach to the chain of command; firm but willing to give his people the chance to explain why their opinion differs in the same way that he's willing to push gently against superior decisions he thinks need more clarity. He'll slap somebody down if necessary but he's not a control freak because he's on someone else's ship. He's a very nuanced character.
I don't have any problems with Spock attempting to leave. With the Talosians able to control their minds to a certain extent I think it was the responsible thing for him to do as the acting captain. Its one thing risking your own life as opposed to the lives of everyone aboard the Enterprise.
What the fuck are you talking about?
The line is rather clumsy. If it's too point out that 'ooh, there are women on the bridge' and then later to point to some romantic tension of Number 1 toward Pike, it didn't work out that well.
Maybe in 1964 it would be received differently, but with all the shows and movies we've had since then, many showing women in positions of power up through admiral, it's very anachronistic for the fictional time Star Trek takes place in.
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