Phantom Menace is the best Prequel.

[DarthPipes]

But it didn't appear in the OT. There was no "rule of two" or "Sith rule the galaxy" ever uttered in these films.

There were a LOT of things in the prequel trilogy that were never mentioned in the classic trilogy.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^^ Indeed. I.E. manipulating him utterly and completely. Anakin is so desperate for this kind of attention though that he's willing to listen and believe Palps, and ultimately does.

 

[sonak]

It's funny...Palpatine has only a brief moment with Anakin in TPM and one scene with him in AOTC. Both of them were pick-up shots that Lucas added after the fact. But they still work and work even better once ROTS comes around. Palpatine is the guy who gives Anakin what he wants. Universal acceptance. He strokes his ego and tells him how great he is. He appears to trust Anakin completely, which the Jedi and even Obi-Wan (in AOTC) does not.

I'd actually agree with this. The Palpatine-Anakin dynamic is one of the things the PT does get right. A shame they didn't start with an older Anakin in TPM to include more of this relationship.


The opera/theater/whatever scene in ROTS with the two of them is one of the best scenes in the entire PT.

No action, just good character moments and dialogue.

 

[General_Phoenix]

But like I said, they had known each other for quite some time. I am not sure how long it was between the first two films, but it was clearly more than a few days. Further, there was obviously a romantic tension in the first film between Han and Leia. There was no such thing in TPM.

It's 3 years between ANH and ESB, and it's mentioned they had some things going on during that time too, like the bounty hunters they ran into on Ord Mantell.

 

[Talosian]

It's funny...Palpatine has only a brief moment with Anakin in TPM and one scene with him in AOTC. Both of them were pick-up shots that Lucas added after the fact. But they still work and work even better once ROTS comes around. Palpatine is the guy who gives Anakin what he wants. Universal acceptance. He strokes his ego and tells him how great he is. He appears to trust Anakin completely, which the Jedi and even Obi-Wan (in AOTC) does not.

I'd actually agree with this. The Palpatine-Anakin dynamic is one of the things the PT does get right. A shame they didn't start with an older Anakin in TPM to include more of this relationship.


The opera/theater/whatever scene in ROTS with the two of them is one of the best scenes in the entire PT.

No action, just good character moments and dialogue.

I agree. The opera scene almost seems out of place in the film because it exists at a higher dramatic level. If the prequels had been fleshed out with the same mood as that one scene they would have been an odd mixture of pulp space adventure and Macbeth. Which wouldn't have been in keeping with the original Star Wars, but would have been much better than what we got, all the same.

This only highlights the inconsistency of what we did get. It makes no sense to have extended political dialogue without context, a sort of Star Wars equivalent of Voyager's techno-babble, while at the same time having a child-like focus on filling the screen with computer generated spectacles instead of character-driven drama.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That would be to eliminate the Jedi before attempting anything else.

Move against the Jedi, then take the Queen to Naboo. This doesn't exactly assure Anakin's training as a Jedi.

But Palpatine isn't interested in getting any treaty signed, really. On the contrary, he is using the crisis to become Supreme Chancellor.

Does Darth Maul know that Senator Palpatine and Darth Sidious are one and the same? I don't know, but I really doubt it. Without that knowledge, Darth Maul could never grasp that the treaty he has been ordered to get the Queen to sign is a complete red herring, that the mission he has been ordered to go on has nothing directly to do with the actual objectives of Darth Sidious.

 

[ichab]

That would be to eliminate the Jedi before attempting anything else.

Move against the Jedi, then take the Queen to Naboo. This doesn't exactly assure Anakin's training as a Jedi.

But Palpatine isn't interested in getting any treaty signed, really. On the contrary, he is using the crisis to become Supreme Chancellor.

Does Darth Maul know that Senator Palpatine and Darth Sidious are one and the same? I don't know, but I really doubt it. Without that knowledge, Darth Maul could never grasp that the treaty he has been ordered to get the Queen to sign is a complete red herring, that the mission he has been ordered to go on has nothing directly to do with the actual objectives of Darth Sidious.

I don't think he did either. We're certain that Dooku didn't know because there is no way that Palpatine would allow himself to be handcuffed to a chair by him unless he was sure that Dooku was ignorant of his true identity.

 

[Mach5]

I don't think he did either. We're certain that Dooku didn't know because there is no way that Palpatine would allow himself to be handcuffed to a chair by him unless he was sure that Dooku was ignorant of his true identity.

Uhm... The fuck?

 

[TheLobes]

It's funny...Palpatine has only a brief moment with Anakin in TPM and one scene with him in AOTC. Both of them were pick-up shots that Lucas added after the fact. But they still work and work even better once ROTS comes around. Palpatine is the guy who gives Anakin what he wants. Universal acceptance. He strokes his ego and tells him how great he is. He appears to trust Anakin completely, which the Jedi and even Obi-Wan (in AOTC) does not.

Whilst I agree that this does indeed make sense, it just bothers me that they spend pretty much no time together, and that the development of the relationship happens entirely offscreen. In the OT the friendship between Han and Luke develops from not liking each other to firms friends, and we see this progress through a number of situations.

With Palps/Anakin there is that one tiny interaction in TPM. Then by AOTC there is one scene where they are friends, and Anakin talks of Palpatines 'guidance'. Then in ROTS Palpatine is suddenly his trusted confidant. Wouldnt it be nice to see how that relationship began and evolved, instead of just starting at a position of almost total trust? The dialogue in that scene is so awful, Palps just pours it on about how amazing Anakin is to the point where only an idiot would not realise hes just buttering him up. How about a scene where Palpatine actually earns Anakin's trust, instead of just assuming all that happened some time in the past?

[I agree. The opera scene almost seems out of place in the film because it exists at a higher dramatic level. If the prequels had been fleshed out with the same mood as that one scene they would have been an odd mixture of pulp space adventure and Macbeth. Which wouldn't have been in keeping with the original Star Wars, but would have been much better than what we got, all the same.

No offense, but you might try reading Macbeth some time. That scene was awful, although the guy who played Palpatine was admitedly awesome. Anakin comes in all pissed off, then Palpatine just magically offers him a solution to all his problems. A good scene, even forgetting the dialogue, is often to do with the fact that both characters are well rounded, with differing opinions that allow the conversation to flow in an interesting way. In that scene there was none of that, Anakin was so ridiculously stupid that he just sat there, without realising that Palpatine was manipulating him or that Palpatine was a sith, he offered no kind of conflict in the scene, and just sat there listening, totally oblivious.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't think he did either. We're certain that Dooku didn't know because there is no way that Palpatine would allow himself to be handcuffed to a chair by him unless he was sure that Dooku was ignorant of his true identity.

Uhm... The fuck?

I think it is more likely that Count Dooku knew that Palpatine and Sidious were one and the same than it was that Darth Maul knew. For one thing, in AOTC Dooku tells Obi-Wan that the Senate is under the control of Darth Sidious. But did Dooku actually know? I'm not sure.

However, I wouldn't necessarily say that what we see in ROTS was enough to decide that Dooku didn't know his identity. Maybe Palpatine felt that Dooku would go along with deceiving Obi-Wan and Anakin. How do we know that Palpatine didn't have a secret escape lock from chair? If I were him, I wouldn't let myself get restrained without a way out. Maybe Palpatine always felt that he could take Dooku.

 

[Ghrakh]

I still cannot make the connection between the "weak-minded, easily duped, desperate for acceptance" PT Anakin and the "focused, take control of the situation" OT Vader. Guess that happened off-screen...

GL should get Hayden into the studio and completely overdub Vader's voice. For the next release.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

By ignoring it and replacing it with something different ( which, not coincidentally, is easier to argue against ). For example: saying the moronic rule that there can only be two Sith is a flaw of both series because it was introduced in the prequels and the prequels take place chronologically first makes no sense. True, but I never said that anywhere.

Yes you did. You said it in your post right here:

Yet the Sith ruled the galaxy in those films. Thus it appeared in the OT. So if two Sith ruling the galaxy is stupid, then the OT is stupid, and the PT merely consistent with the stupidity of the OT. Oh, the pain...

While I applaud your ability to say something absurd and then turn around and deny saying it in the very next paragraph, this debate is getting pointless. We shall have to agree to disagree.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

I think it is more likely that Count Dooku knew that Palpatine and Sidious were one and the same than it was that Darth Maul knew. For one thing, in AOTC Dooku tells Obi-Wan that the Senate is under the control of Darth Sidious. But did Dooku actually know? I'm not sure.

There is no reason to believe that neither of them knew. For one, Dooku says a Sith is in charge of the Senate, showing he knows that Palpatine is a Sith. At the end of the film, he is shown with Darth Sidious overseeing a bazillion clones and Star Destroyers. He clearly knew that was Palpatine.

 

[Ghrakh]

Yet the Sith ruled the galaxy in those films. Thus it appeared in the OT. So if two Sith ruling the galaxy is stupid, then the OT is stupid, and the PT merely consistent with the stupidity of the OT. Oh, the pain...

The pain of trying to figure out if you actually watched the OT.

Vader in SW was in command of a single mission: to retrieve the DS plans. Tarkin was in charge of the military, and all the DS's operations and strategy. The Emperor was portrayed more as a distant political figure. Vader was just the top SS guy as it were.

In TESB, Vader was in command of a command ship with a fleet of SDs to hunt down the rebels, and also to get Luke. I seriously can't believe that a single fleet of SDs is enough to "rule the galaxy".

In ROTJ, same thing. Remember Han's line "There are a lot of command ships". Vader wasn't on all of them was he? No, again he was a part of a larger story.

Then the Emperor comes aboard the DS2, with his red guards. Who were they, if not part of the Sith? (And please don't reference the EU or wookiepedia or any of that, what matters is what's shown or implied in the movies.) Who was that guy he was talking to that was just as creepy looking? They came across as part of the Emperor's evil entourage.

It wasn't just Vader and the Emperor. That "rule of two" thing just didn't make any sense.

 

[sonak]

It's funny...Palpatine has only a brief moment with Anakin in TPM and one scene with him in AOTC. Both of them were pick-up shots that Lucas added after the fact. But they still work and work even better once ROTS comes around. Palpatine is the guy who gives Anakin what he wants. Universal acceptance. He strokes his ego and tells him how great he is. He appears to trust Anakin completely, which the Jedi and even Obi-Wan (in AOTC) does not.

Whilst I agree that this does indeed make sense, it just bothers me that they spend pretty much no time together, and that the development of the relationship happens entirely offscreen. In the OT the friendship between Han and Luke develops from not liking each other to firms friends, and we see this progress through a number of situations.

With Palps/Anakin there is that one tiny interaction in TPM. Then by AOTC there is one scene where they are friends, and Anakin talks of Palpatines 'guidance'. Then in ROTS Palpatine is suddenly his trusted confidant. Wouldnt it be nice to see how that relationship began and evolved, instead of just starting at a position of almost total trust? The dialogue in that scene is so awful, Palps just pours it on about how amazing Anakin is to the point where only an idiot would not realise hes just buttering him up. How about a scene where Palpatine actually earns Anakin's trust, instead of just assuming all that happened some time in the past?

[I agree. The opera scene almost seems out of place in the film because it exists at a higher dramatic level. If the prequels had been fleshed out with the same mood as that one scene they would have been an odd mixture of pulp space adventure and Macbeth. Which wouldn't have been in keeping with the original Star Wars, but would have been much better than what we got, all the same.

No offense, but you might try reading Macbeth some time. That scene was awful, although the guy who played Palpatine was admitedly awesome. Anakin comes in all pissed off, then Palpatine just magically offers him a solution to all his problems. A good scene, even forgetting the dialogue, is often to do with the fact that both characters are well rounded, with differing opinions that allow the conversation to flow in an interesting way. In that scene there was none of that, Anakin was so ridiculously stupid that he just sat there, without realising that Palpatine was manipulating him or that Palpatine was a sith, he offered no kind of conflict in the scene, and just sat there listening, totally oblivious.

I don't have the problems you do with these scenes because the Anakin of the PT really is a pretty big idiot, so I don't see why it's so unlikely that Palpatine would be able to so easily manipulate him like he does.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Who was that guy he was talking to that was just as creepy looking?

What scene are you referring to?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

At the end of the film, he is shown with Darth Sidious overseeing a bazillion clones and Star Destroyers. He clearly knew that was Palpatine.

No, that's Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, Bail Organa, etc. Dooku isn't there.

 

[TheLobes]

I don't have the problems you do with these scenes because the Anakin of the PT really is a pretty big idiot, so I don't see why it's so unlikely that Palpatine would be able to so easily manipulate him like he does.

Doesnt the fact that Anakin is that stupid mean that scenes with him in can never be good? Lets look at the Shakespeare reference. In a tragedy, theres often a totally stupid character who is tricked by the antagonist, but these scenes are mostly played for comedy, or to illustrate something about the antagonist prior to their manipulation of the protagonist. The interesting part of the story is how a character can crawl under the skin of another very accomplished and intelligent character and start to screw them up with clever manipulation.

That cant happen with Anakin, so I dont see how you cant have the same problem with these scenes.

I still cannot make the connection between the "weak-minded, easily duped, desperate for acceptance" PT Anakin and the "focused, take control of the situation" OT Vader. Guess that happened off-screen...

As far as I concerned, the one saving grace of the PT is that they are so awful, and so disconnected from anything we ever see in the OT, that they manage not to screw the OT up for me. Ive tried looking at Vader and thinking of him as Anakin, but it just doesnt happen. Theyre two totally seperate trilogies which happen to have the same name.

 

[sonak]

I don't have the problems you do with these scenes because the Anakin of the PT really is a pretty big idiot, so I don't see why it's so unlikely that Palpatine would be able to so easily manipulate him like he does.

Doesnt the fact that Anakin is that stupid mean that scenes with him in can never be good? Lets look at the Shakespeare reference. In a tragedy, theres often a totally stupid character who is tricked by the antagonist, but these scenes are mostly played for comedy, or to illustrate something about the antagonist prior to their manipulation of the protagonist. The interesting part of the story is how a character can crawl under the skin of another very accomplished and intelligent character and start to screw them up with clever manipulation.

That cant happen with Anakin, so I dont see how you cant have the same problem with these scenes.

I still cannot make the connection between the "weak-minded, easily duped, desperate for acceptance" PT Anakin and the "focused, take control of the situation" OT Vader. Guess that happened off-screen...

As far as I concerned, the one saving grace of the PT is that they are so awful, and so disconnected from anything we ever see in the OT, that they manage not to screw the OT up for me. Ive tried looking at Vader and thinking of him as Anakin, but it just doesnt happen. Theyre two totally seperate trilogies which happen to have the same name.

well to be fair, I wasn't comparing it to Shakespeare. I was comparing it to the rest of the PT, and in that sense, it stands out as a scene with pretty strong performances and decent dialogue. It actually has relevance to the characters and the overall arc of Anakin's "fall," so it's a win by that standard.

 

[Ghrakh]

Who was that guy he was talking to that was just as creepy looking?

What scene are you referring to?

Not sure exactly when but it's in the throne room, iirc before Luke arrives. There's a group of these guys that the Emperor joins. There's no actual dialogue and it cuts away relatively quickly, but it's pretty obvious they're conversing like...peers almost.

The whole entourage with the Emperor, with dark robes and red guards, just came across really obviously as a "satanic" cult or something. And that's the image of the sith I had. It also furthered the Nazi parallel because there was a lot of cult stuff happening there too. Finally, Vader came across as the Emperor's "star pupil", not the exclusive be-all-end-all guy we saw in the PT.

I still cannot make the connection between the "weak-minded, easily duped, desperate for acceptance" PT Anakin and the "focused, take control of the situation" OT Vader. Guess that happened off-screen...

As far as I concerned, the one saving grace of the PT is that they are so awful, and so disconnected from anything we ever see in the OT, that they manage not to screw the OT up for me. Ive tried looking at Vader and thinking of him as Anakin, but it just doesnt happen. Theyre two totally seperate trilogies which happen to have the same name.

Same here.