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Phantom Menace is the best Prequel.

I like the first scene aboard the Death Star in ANH quite a bit. But the scene was not very long, and the politics discussed there go by really quickly, just a remark about dissolving the Senate, and the consequences of that. And then we move on to more important things like Force-strangling flag officers.

The dialog aboard the Tantive IV was cool too. It flowed naturally in the context of finger pointing (both literal and figurative).

Some politics in Star Wars is cool. A lot is just unnecessarily plodding.
 
And it turns out, the political/military angle isn't even the real story. The fight is actually going on, on the mystical level. What happens between the Emperor, Vader and Luke is the important thing.

But it's still ambiguous. The Republic has been established as corrupt enough that the Seppys can be seen as having a valid point, but not so corrupt that Bail, Padme, Obi-Wan and the rest of the Jedi are idiots for not abandoning it, too.

And crucially, that ambiguity could be a plausible reason why Anakin might jump one way while the Jedi jump the other way, without anyone needing to be stupid or naive.

And however the political story is told, it still needs to take a back seat to Anakin's mystical journey, which was utterly ignored in the PT. It's like the Force was just something people used so they could jump around like grasshoppers, and had no greater meaning than that.

I think a big problem in both Anakin's mystical journey, and the state of the galaxy is that the movies leave so much out. Never in the films do we see what changes Anakin from being an idealistic child to a bitter moron; from the moment he turns up in AOTC hes just so obviously spoiling to join the sith.

The same thing happens with the war. AOTC ends with the start of the war, and the ROTS starts at practically the end. This is then carried over into the lesser story elements, we hear all about the corruption and the political situation, but we never actually see anything connected with it. Just like we never actually see Anakin and Obi-wan as friends, the people of Naboo dying, or uncliched love between Anakin and Padme.

In the OT, the struggle of the rebellion works as a symbolic framework for what is going in with the characters themselves.

A New Hope: We're told that the empire now maintains control seperate from any senate, the rebellion is almost crushed. As Leia tells Kenobi, 'this is our most desperate hour'. Suddenly theres this piece of information to destroy the new superweapon, they risk everything and eventually gain a major victory. This parallels the story of Luke, who moves from no hope of attaining his dreams to being the one who destroys the death star, and starting to realise his powers at the same time.

Empire: Both rebellion and Luke have won a victory, but they still have far to go. The rebellion is forced to retreat from combat with the empire as its still fairly scattered; Luke faces Vader with inadequete training and focus, therefore leading him to fail. Its emphasised that both are staying strong but not yet ready for final victory. At the end of the film we see Luke's new hand while he's recovering, at the same time we see the lonesome fleet of the rebellion, indicating a new marshalling of strength.

Jedi: Both the rebellon and Luke face their foes in a climactic battle, taking their new found strength to the point where they either win or die. Eventually they both overcome what faces them, and the film ends on this dual victory for Luke and for the rebellion.

This also seen in Han. He starts off a sleazy smuggler with a price on his head and no kind of moral compass, but at the end of ANH we see the first change as he also risks everything in his first noble act. In ESB hes obviously become a respected part of the rebellion, but he still feels the need to escape back to his old life, and seems worried and confused about becoming a 'good guy'. In ROTJ, he is now voluntarily leading a mission which even Leia seems dubious about, defeating his own demons and becoming the mature man we see that the end of the film.

In the PT you get nothing like this, because its so sloppy, and writing well is harder than CGI lava fights. The movies are about the development of Anakin from light to dark, and yet they skip the whole of his training, and his involvement in a drawn out and costly galactic conflict. These are the two most obvious points to develop that darkness in Anakin, and yet we never see anything! The important parts of Anakin's development are:

1. His relationship with Padme.
2. His friendship with Obi-Wan.
3. His friendship with Palpatine.
4. His training.
5. His involvement in the war.

Nothing is ever developed. He and Padme are just in love, for not reason, we see no evolution in their feelings for each other. Same with the relationship with Obi, Palps, his training, and his involvement in the war. It would have been nice to see the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin evolve, but instead its just assumed that they are now close and Palps has suddenly become his dear friend. This is why the Anakin character feels so disconnected from the world and characters around him. Theres no solid foundation or context for those things because they are forced into the script without any sort of development or thematic relationship with the rest of the story, purely to move the story along.

If a story should contain an arc between two points, then the PT was basically just two points. Instead of moving between them in the films, with dialogue and characterisation etc, the script just jumps from one point to another. Garbage, total garbage.
 
I would say the relationship with Palpatine was developed pretty well. Or at least portrayed effectively. It's the relationship with Obi-Wan that's inconsistent.

In the original TPM script, it was Obi-Wan who found Anakin on Tatooine. But Lucas later changed it to Qui-Gon. It's because of Qui-Gon's death that Obi-Wan has to train Anakin, which is an interesting development. But because Qui-Gon found him and Anakin and Obi-Wan have very little interaction, the relationship is forced to play catch up by the time AOTC roles around.

In AOTC, their relationship is portrayed as father and son. We see very little warmth between them as they are constantly fighting. To the point that Lucas had to add that scene with them on the elevator in the beginning (Nest of Gundarks). Obi-Wan disagrees with the Council's decision to give Anakin a solo assignment. The Council praises Anakin and Mace Windu says he might be the Chosen One. Obi-Wan says his abilities have made him arrogant.

In ROTS, Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship suddenly morphs into a brother/brother one. They are friendly with each other. Now all of a sudden, Obi-Wan is Anakin's biggest defender and now the Council mistrusts him. Mace Windu outright states it and Yoda now wonders if the Chosen One prophecty was misread.

So what do we have? A relationship between two characters that constantly changes for the sake of the movie they're telling. A bipolar Council that trusts Anakin and then mistrusts him. Now I agree, everything can't happen onscreen. But by watching the movies, we have no idea how the Anakin/Obi-Wan/Jedi relationship changes from movie-to-movie. It just does.
 
I would agree that Anakin's relationship with Palpatine is the strongest of his relationships that is actually developed. From the foreshadowing scene at the end of TPM onwards we see that Anakin and Palpatine have developed a father/son/student/mentor type of relationship that is much more casual than his relationship with Obi-Wan which is more of a strict familiar relationship. Anakin and Padme's relationship is forced upon us because at the start of the movie when we first encounter her we all know who she is supposed to be and that eventually we need Luke and Leia to be born at the end of the trilogy. There was no "natural" feel to their relationship and Padme spent most of the second movie rejecting his advances only to finally accept them and declare her love for him. The relationship between Padme and Anakin is perhaps the aspect of the trilogy I least like because of how they're both portrayed and written.
 
In the original TPM script, it was Obi-Wan who found Anakin on Tatooine. But Lucas later changed it to Qui-Gon. It's because of Qui-Gon's death that Obi-Wan has to train Anakin, which is an interesting development. But because Qui-Gon found him and Anakin and Obi-Wan have very little interaction, the relationship is forced to play catch up by the time AOTC roles around.

The biggest problem that I had with TPM was that we got Qui-Gon instead of Obi-Wan as the main Jedi. Obi-Wan got absolutely nothing to do in TPM except kill Maul at the end. Kid Anakin was also waste and nothing like how he was in AOTC/ROTS.

Making TPM take place so far in the past hurt the entire PT. The movie would have been so much better it had been about an older Anakin already starting out as Obi-Wan's apprentice. We would have been spared all the retarded YIPPIE lines.

Padme also had no personality in the PT. Yeah, she is pretty, but so what? Was she really worth killing thousands of people for? I kind of hate her as a character. :wtf:
 
There was no "natural" feel to their relationship and Padme spent most of the second movie rejecting his advances only to finally accept them and declare her love for him.

You've never seen a woman who reacts the opposite of her real feelings? The kiss she starts and then pulls back from should have shown that she was really attracted all along but is saying no because of her feelings of duty, responsibility, etc. Yeah, it's cheesy and seemingly abrupt but the only way to make it less so is thought bubbles or voiceovers, but remember the period being emulated here is the '30's serials, so it has to be love at first sight (or thereabouts).
 
Padme also had no personality in the PT. Yeah, she is pretty, but so what? Was she really worth killing thousands of people for? I kind of hate her as a character. :wtf:

She has a personality... but it's pretty... dumb. Lucas wants us to think of her as principled, but she's just dead wrong at every turn in her official capacity as first Queen and then Senator.

She says she'll oppose any course of action that leads to war: the war is coming anyway, since as Eowyn said, there only needs one party to commit to war for there to be one. Thus the Naboo are unprepared. Fail.

She then calls for the vote of no question in Valorum, her strongest supporter. Fail again since it puts the Dark Lord of the Sith in control of the Republic. Fail.

In AOTC, she opposes the Military Creation Act, which is before anyone knows about the clones, so it must therefore be composed of ordinary beings, who won't be the ultimate checkmate against the Jedi (and thus the Republic). That's a fail. The Sith are making sure that the separatists are going to war one way or the other so it's a Double Fail.

Then she leaves Binks in charge while she goes and hides, who votes the Chancellor emergency powers. Mega fail.

The only good thing she did was foster the nascent Rebellion, but those scenes all got cut...
 
Yeah I know women are capable of that and that was probably the intent but it's execution was sloppy even if you rationalize it in the context of an old style serial. Their entire relationship felt unnatural and kind of reminded me of those reality shows like "The Bachelor" etc where the person falls madly in love or whatever and then ends up not even being with the person. I'm also aware that people do have instant attraction to each other and can rush into things but this isn't what happened between Padme and Anakin at all.
 
Yeah I know women are capable of that and that was probably the intent but it's execution was sloppy even if you rationalize it in the context of an old style serial. Their entire relationship felt unnatural and kind of reminded me of those reality shows like "The Bachelor" etc where the person falls madly in love or whatever and then ends up not even being with the person. I'm also aware that people do have instant attraction to each other and can rush into things but this isn't what happened between Padme and Anakin at all.

It seemed more like a late teens early 20s love affair, look at the Spideer-Man movies where the same thing happened Peter was afraid to tell Mary-Jane how he felt about her for fear of putting her life in danger without allowing her to make up her own mind..

I dso think that Padme loved Anakin she just made up an excuse not to show it our of fear. Once their loves were in danger there was little point in trying to hide her feelings.
 
And yet, they also disprove that critics thought that the PT was shit. Two and a half stars might not be great, but it is still a thumbs-up.

Well, no it doesn't. It actually doesn't disprove anything - just illustrates that not all critics bashed the originals as Lucas said when asked why the general consensus among critics is that they are not as good as the original films and that the fans were not as happy with them.

Going from Metacritic, which doesn't represent just one critic.

Star Wars - 91/100 - 8.9 User Score
Empire Strikes Back - 78/100 - 9.5 User Score
Return of the Jedi - 52/100 - 8.4 User Score
Phantom Menace - 52/100 - 6.2 User Score
Attack of the Clones - 53/100 - 6.2 User Score
Revenge of the Sith - 68/100 - 7.0 User Score

I was hesitant to show these scores, because I don't know what reviews of the originals are more recent and thus colored with nostalgia, but it appears that quite a few listed were from when the movies were released.

The user scores are obviously more recent, but show a decline from Empire onward until Sith, where it rebounds slightly to a 7 out of 10.
 
It seemed more like a late teens early 20s love affair, look at the Spideer-Man movies where the same thing happened Peter was afraid to tell Mary-Jane how he felt about her for fear of putting her life in danger without allowing her to make up her own mind.

The romance in the Spider-Man movies was also terrible. It become unbearable by the third movie.:brickwall:
 
You've never seen a woman who reacts the opposite of her real feelings? The kiss she starts and then pulls back from should have shown that she was really attracted all along but is saying no because of her feelings of duty, responsibility, etc.

Lucas was trying to duplicate the Han/Leia romance where they started with Leia being cold but respecting towards Han and gradually letting her real feelings show.

But the thing is, Han and Leia had known each other for quite a while at this point, and had been working together for some time. Anakin and Padme ran into each other after knowing each other for a few days ten years ago, hang out for a few days, and are suddenly in love.

But there was no gradual warming of their relationship like in Empire. Nor was Anakin doing anything worthy of warming her to him. Han, at least, was being smooth and coming on to her a bit strongly. Anakin was leering like a stalker, professing his loooooove, and finally kills a group of people. This is what wins her heart? What, is she still 14 in this movie?
 
You've never seen a woman who reacts the opposite of her real feelings? The kiss she starts and then pulls back from should have shown that she was really attracted all along but is saying no because of her feelings of duty, responsibility, etc.

Lucas was trying to duplicate the Han/Leia romance where they started with Leia being cold but respecting towards Han and gradually letting her real feelings show.

But the thing is, Han and Leia had known each other for quite a while at this point, and had been working together for some time. Anakin and Padme ran into each other after knowing each other for a few days ten years ago, hang out for a few days, and are suddenly in love.

But there was no gradual warming of their relationship like in Empire. Nor was Anakin doing anything worthy of warming her to him. Han, at least, was being smooth and coming on to her a bit strongly. Anakin was leering like a stalker, professing his loooooove, and finally kills a group of people. This is what wins her heart? What, is she still 14 in this movie?

If anything the Leia/Han relationship was far more forced since he took a few days in the Falcon to bring them together and all of a sudden she loves him, after kissing what turned out to be her won brother earlier in the movie. After the first movie I was one of those rooting for Luke to get Leia not Han.
 
if you're argument boils down to "it's a kids movie if it's not rated R or NC-17 and it has a line of action figures," that's not a very strong argument, and would make a LOT of movies that are not kids' movies into kids' movies.

Who else are action figures made for?


action, obviously.


But seriously, "Dark Knight" has action figures. "Watchmen" does too. Neither strike me as kids' movies. I'm pretty sure there are other non-comic book sci-fi/fantasy movies and franchises that have action figures. I think it's more of a genre thing than a "kid movie vs. adult movie" thing.
 
But seriously, "Dark Knight" has action figures. "Watchmen" does too. Neither strike me as kids' movies. I'm pretty sure there are other non-comic book sci-fi/fantasy movies and franchises that have action figures. I think it's more of a genre thing than a "kid movie vs. adult movie" thing.
Ang Lee's Hulk had tons of action figures and kids toys as well, and that isn't a kid's film by any stretch.
If anything the Leia/Han relationship was far more forced since he took a few days in the Falcon to bring them together and all of a sudden she loves him, after kissing what turned out to be her won brother earlier in the movie. After the first movie I was one of those rooting for Luke to get Leia not Han.
But like I said, they had known each other for quite some time. I am not sure how long it was between the first two films, but it was clearly more than a few days. Further, there was obviously a romantic tension in the first film between Han and Leia. There was no such thing in TPM.

She kissed Luke because she was mad at Han and wanted to piss him off.
 
@Trembling Blu...excellent point about Lucas attempting to recreate Han and Leia as well as pointing out the differences between them and Padme and Anakin. It just didn't feel the same at all. There also seemed a lack of passion...lust certainly on Anakin's part which I feel like Lucas attempted to convey as love. Perhaps that was the festering Dark Side corrupting Anakin's love into lust?
 
If anything the Leia/Han relationship was far more forced since he took a few days in the Falcon to bring them together and all of a sudden she loves him, after kissing what turned out to be her won brother earlier in the movie. After the first movie I was one of those rooting for Luke to get Leia not Han.
But like I said, they had known each other for quite some time. I am not sure how long it was between the first two films, but it was clearly more than a few days. Further, there was obviously a romantic tension in the first film between Han and Leia. There was no such thing in TPM.

She kissed Luke because she was mad at Han and wanted to piss him off.[/QUOTE]

Han didn't even meet Leia til halfway though the first movie, I didn't think there was any real romantic tension between the two of them. But I do think that Padme was attracted to Anakin even in TPM, he was one of the few people in the movie who talked to her like a person even comparing her to an angel.
 
CorporalCaptain said:
That would be to eliminate the Jedi before attempting anything else.

Move against the Jedi, then take the Queen to Naboo. This doesn't exactly assure Anakin's training as a Jedi.

But it didn't appear in the OT. There was no "rule of two" or "Sith rule the galaxy" ever uttered in these films.

Yet the Sith ruled the galaxy in those films. Thus it appeared in the OT. So if two Sith ruling the galaxy is stupid, then the OT is stupid, and the PT merely consistent with the stupidity of the OT. Oh, the pain...

TremblingBluStar said:
How am I rewriting what you said?

By ignoring it and replacing it with something different ( which, not coincidentally, is easier to argue against ). For example: saying the moronic rule that there can only be two Sith is a flaw of both series because it was introduced in the prequels and the prequels take place chronologically first makes no sense. True, but I never said that anywhere.

TremblingBluStar said:
I think you need to look up the definition of a straw man argument. It is thrown around far too much on the Internet these days

So it's to be retired due to overuse? Convenient... but is that indicative of an epidemic of misuse of the term, or an epidemic of strawmanning, or both? I wonder what the definition says...

wikipedia said:
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Nah, you're right, nothing like that going on here.:eek:
 
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It's funny...Palpatine has only a brief moment with Anakin in TPM and one scene with him in AOTC. Both of them were pick-up shots that Lucas added after the fact. But they still work and work even better once ROTS comes around. Palpatine is the guy who gives Anakin what he wants. Universal acceptance. He strokes his ego and tells him how great he is. He appears to trust Anakin completely, which the Jedi and even Obi-Wan (in AOTC) does not.
 
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