• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Original 12 Constitution class ships

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think Starfleet was supposed to be a "navy" from the get-go, but it was an older concept of a navy. The Federation is more like something from the colonizing era than the Cold War, and back then it was understood that naval vessels represented the "central" government for pretty much everything, from policing to map-making, as well as handling the international tensions that built up over colonial interests, and of course the ultimate resort of fighting a war at sea. But the leaders of the Royal Navy in WW1 had gotten their fighting experience from river gunboats in Africa and landing parties in China, not in blue-water warships.

Even today, the US Navy takes on humanitarian missions and supports overseas missions and interests beyond the reach of the USCG.

This is what the TOS writer's guide had to say about it:

The mission of the U.S.S. Enterprise? Isn't it something like that of, say, English [sic] warships at the turn of the century?

Very close. As you recall, in those days vessels of the major powers were assigned to sectors of various oceans, where they represented their government there. Out of contact with the Admiralty for long periods, the captains of such vessels had broad discretionary powers in regulating trade, bush wars, putting down slavery, assisting scientific investigations and geological surveys, even to becoming involved in relatively minor items like searching for a lost explorer or school mistress.​
 
Even today, the US Navy takes on humanitarian missions and supports overseas missions and interests beyond the reach of the USCG.
Interesting, because one could say that even today, the USCG takes on humanitarian missions and supports overseas missions and interests beyond the reach of the US Navy... including scientific/research based missions.

Again, as unpopular as it may be to fans, the original intent of Starfleet is more analogous (in modern times) to the US Coast Guard than the US Navy. And a major part of wanting Trek to be more like the US Navy is the visibility of the Navy (and the increasing Mary Sue turn of Trek over the years). The Coast Guard and it's scope of operations flies under the radar of the average person... and that is not how people (fans) want to think that Kirk and the Enterprise operated in the 23rd century. Kirk must be the most famous captain in the history of the galaxy and the Enterprise must be the flagship of the Federation.
 
The Enterprise goes toe to toe with other empires' most powerful warships. The Enterprise is more than a Coast Guard cutter. It is clearly a battleship.
 
Again, as unpopular as it may be to fans, the original intent of Starfleet is more analogous (in modern times) to the US Coast Guard than the US Navy.

They may have intended that, but it really never showed up on screen.
 
Really? Watch Mudd's Women (and even The Man Trap) and you see the Enterprise acting very much like a Coast Guard Cutter.

Do I have to spell this one out? You guys should be able to take the fan goggles off for a minute to see what I'm saying... even if you hate it.

The ship's power to blast half a continent was literally the ship's power... antimatter. In The Cage attempting to focus it via their weapons almost burned out their systems. In The Paradise Syndrome the attempt actually burned out their systems beyond their own abilities to repair them. The only time we see a real demonstration of this type of power is at the end of Obsession.

But that's okay... because (as I pointed out) the Enterprise transforms from a vessel of exploration into a weapons platform over time. If we want to take this back to classical nautical times, she went from being like the HMS Bounty or HMS Discovery to being like the HMS Victory.

Like I said, fans wanted Star Trek to be star wars long before there was Star Wars. Fans wanted space battles... not science, exploration and discovery. And sure enough, that is what it became. The battleship Enterprise, ready for space battles going toe to toe with space alien's battleships in displays that will make fans happy.

Again... the Enterprise was designed with no weapons, Jefferies fixed this with the Phase II Enterprise by adding a lone visible weapons assembly (to help the effects artists)... but Probert/Taylor ended up covering the ship with weapons for TMP, and that is often the fans' favorite version. Imagine that!

I'm not arguing against what she became... I'm pointing out how she was originally intended and designed. And the weapons were an after thought in the beginning of TOS.
 
Do I have to spell this one out? You guys should be able to take the fan goggles off for a minute to see what I'm saying... even if you hate it.

I really don't need to be talked down to.

My favorite version of the Enterprise? The TOS series version. Imagine that. Followed by the Phase II version because of the incredible job you did bringing it to life.

Whether or not they were working on making the Enterprise the equivalent of a Coast Guard cutter behind the scenes, that simply wasn't how it came off on screen. I started watching Star Trek before there were ever any movies or franchise to color my thinking.
 
I wasn't talking down to you... you weren't the only person that post was addressing.

And yeah, I know it changed... the presentation had shifted before the end of the first season. I noted that earlier...
Well, to start, it was because compelling war stories are easier to turn out than science/research stories. And you can see this in the first season with the use of the recycled war story of Balance of Terror (from The Enemy Below). And the viewers (later fans) loved those stories.
... but what I was trying to point out was what would be the functional equivelent of the original intent with what we have today, and how that wasn't battleships or aircraft carriers or fighting ships in general.

Yeah, Coast Guard Cutters can fight... and I'm not denying that. But they can also do much more, and some of their missions today are more like what was intended for the starship Enterprise than current missions of the US Navy.

And I pointed out the Healy, Polar Star and Polar Sea because they go where the Navy won't (and can't) to do research.

I grew up in Coronado, aircraft carriers (like the Kitty Hawk and Constellation, and sometimes even the Enterprise) were everyday features in my life... so I, too, made that type of connection early on. But in researching the models I also ended up finding out about the original intent of those who designed and built them. Maybe these are things fans don't want to know (or aren't ready for)... but I try to share none the less.
 
I grew up in Coronado, aircraft carriers (like the Kitty Hawk and Constellation, and sometimes even the Enterprise) were everyday features in my life... so I, too, made that type of connection early on. But in researching the models I also ended up finding out about the original intent of those who designed and built them. Maybe these are things fans don't want to know (or aren't ready for)... but I try to share none the less.

These are great things to know. But we still have to deal with what actually made it on screen. Or else we can sit here and argue til the end of time about a red-skinned Martian Spock who has a metal plate in his stomach and feeds off of energy.

Lots of cool things didn't make it onscreen, but they don't supersede what is in the actual episodes (for me). YMMV.
 
And if you are a rivet-counting detail-obsessed model builder like me and you've ever tried to correct the AMT kit to make it a exact match to the 11-footer, you will learn that you can't do it out of the box. Literally every part needs some sort of modification.

The builder of that AMT kit I liked to pictures of tells me it was an "out of the box" build (his words), with the exception of aftermarket nacelle caps, intercoolers and decals. He said he filled the under saucer dimples and rings, and shortened he deflector stem. That's it. Looks nice enough for me, and has inspired me to build my own "grossly inaccurate" AMT Enterprise for the first time in over 30 years.
 
Really? Watch Mudd's Women (and even The Man Trap) and you see the Enterprise acting very much like a Coast Guard Cutter.

The Enterprise also acts very much like a British ship of the line from the 17th, 18th or 19th centuries, too. From what I recall reading, TOS Starfleet was modeled on the idea of the British navy from that era - out of contact with home base, captains having a lot of autonomy and authority, handling missions both military and scientific in nature.
 
Yes, it's always been "Horatio Hornblower in space"...find me somewhere that Roddenberry called it "the Coast Guard in space".
 
Yes, it's always been "Horatio Hornblower in space"...find me somewhere that Roddenberry called it "the Coast Guard in space".

A point of clarification: I don't think Roddenberry ever actually said that Star Trek was "Horation Hornblower in Space." I think he described Captain Kirk as a "futuristic Horatio Hornblower." He could well have and probably did think of Star Trek as the age of nautical discovery. But I don't think he ever actually said "Hornblower in space."

Willing to be corrected.
 
I wasn't talking down to you... you weren't the only person that post was addressing.

And yeah, I know it changed... the presentation had shifted before the end of the first season. I noted that earlier...

... but what I was trying to point out was what would be the functional equivelent of the original intent with what we have today, and how that wasn't battleships or aircraft carriers or fighting ships in general.

Yeah, Coast Guard Cutters can fight... and I'm not denying that. But they can also do much more, and some of their missions today are more like what was intended for the starship Enterprise than current missions of the US Navy.

And I pointed out the Healy, Polar Star and Polar Sea because they go where the Navy won't (and can't) to do research.

I grew up in Coronado, aircraft carriers (like the Kitty Hawk and Constellation, and sometimes even the Enterprise) were everyday features in my life... so I, too, made that type of connection early on. But in researching the models I also ended up finding out about the original intent of those who designed and built them. Maybe these are things fans don't want to know (or aren't ready for)... but I try to share none the less.
So what would you have us do? Ignore the episodes where the Enterprise is depicted as a battleship and instead think of the Enterprise as a cutter because that's how it was originally intended? Don't you think we should go more by what we see on screen?
 
So what would you have us do? Ignore the episodes where the Enterprise is depicted as a battleship and instead think of the Enterprise as a cutter because that's how it was originally intended? Don't you think we should go more by what we see on screen?
Strawman-Shaw doesn't (to my knowledge) have a TrekBBS account... but you are welcome to attempt to contact him to continue your discussion.

What I've posted clearly outlines my position... please take the time to re-read.
 
Strawman-Shaw doesn't (to my knowledge) have a TrekBBS account... but you are welcome to attempt to contact him to continue your discussion.

What I've posted clearly outlines my position... please take the time to re-read.
Strawman? Seemed a perfectly reasonable question to me. Should I or should I not view the Enterprise as a battleship? It's a simple question.
 
The builder of that AMT kit I liked to pictures of tells me it was an "out of the box" build (his words), with the exception of aftermarket nacelle caps, intercoolers and decals. He said he filled the under saucer dimples and rings, and shortened he deflector stem. That's it. Looks nice enough for me, and has inspired me to build my own "grossly inaccurate" AMT Enterprise for the first time in over 30 years.

The AMT kit is 90 to 95% the way there. But it is not a very good match of the 11 footer. And I agree that your friend's finished kit looks very nice. He did a heck of a job with it. I hope he's proudly displaying it, as it is very well done.

And I'm not sure who you're quoting having said "grossly inaccurate." Wasn't me. My whole argument is just that the AMT kit is different enough from the Enterprise as it appeared on screen to be justifiably a different type of ship. That's all.

So let me go though the differences. NOTE TO ALL: if you don't care about this whole AMT vs. Shooting model discussion, feel free to skip this post.

Starting from the bow and working my way aft, here are the differences in the AMT kit as compared to the 11 foot photography miniature:

1.) The edge of the saucer is much less sharply angled.
2.) The lower saucer's outer edge has a wide flat ring which doesn't occur on the 11-footer.
3.) The bridge dome is completely different.
4.) The "B-C" deck teardrop superstructure is completely different.*
5.) The lower/planetary sensor dome is much smaller.
6.) There are three little dimples on the lower saucer (which you mentioned your friend had to fill.)
7.) The hardware above the impulse engine (directly above the interconnecting dorsal) is much bulkier.
8.) The sides of the dorsal are totally different (the 11-footer had something of an airfoil shape, while the AMT is flat)
9.) The deflector dish sits much too far forward (another change your friend made)
10.) The flat panels where the red pennants go on the engineering hull should be somewhat inset. The foraed ends of these box structures are not correctly shaped.
11.) The forward domes on the engines are too small, making the chamfer around them too wide.**
12.) The three panels on the lower surface of the forward end of the nacelles should be narrower and thicker.***
13.) The forward end of the intercooler loops should be a wide box projecting from the nacelle. In fact, comparing this whole part to the 11-footer shows it's much too bulky and is quite different than what is on the studio model.
14.) The pylons are too thick and attach to the nacelles too high.
15.) The spine of the engineering hull is missing several lights.
16.) The cut-out under the hangar deck it not the correct profile.
17.) The hangar bay doors are flattened considerably fore-to-aft.
18.) The inner trenches of the nacelles have a very different geometry.
19.) The upper aft intercooler loops are wrong (your friend found some nice aftermarket ones.)
20.) The aft boxes on the nacelles should have flat tops and bottoms, the AMT one are angled.
21.) The nacelles should have a greater taper to them fore-to-aft. They are noticeably too parallel. ****
22.) The aft end caps lack any detailing. This is plainly evident on the Constellation model as photographed, though your friend found some nice aftermarket parts to dress up his kit.


I'm pretty sure that's most of it. The overall profiles of bothe the saucer and engineering hull are subtly wrong too, but they aren't off by a whole lot.

Some of these inaccuracies are pretty subtle, others less so. Having studied these things as much as I have, they kinda leap out at me. In fact, I noticed the differences in the AMT Constellation even way back as a kid. It always struck me as a very different ship from the Enterprise.

I'm not trying to suggest that the producers intended it to be a different class from the Enterprise, just that there are enough differences to justify that it could be if you want to think of it that way. Which is what I choose to do. I stand my idea that the Constellation was a much older ship that received a very extensive, TMP-like refit to bring it in line with current Connie specs. Or near enough to that.

But your mileage is absolutely free to vary.

--Alex



________
*Looks like your friend had a vintage 1960's kit made with the original aluminum tools.... in the later versions made with the steel tools this area looks even less like the 11-footer.

**The later steel tooling actually improves on these parts.

*** This whole area is pretty different on the later tooling. It ends up being one part where all three boxes are connected as one part. I'm not sure exactly how the 1960's kit did it, but they look incorrect on your friend's build in any case.

****I understand this too was changed on the later tooling. The vintage kit had almost straight eniges tubes, while the later ones did introduce some taper, but not quite enough.
 
Whatever class one thinks the Constellation was, the inconsistencies of Trek have opened up some great discussions over the years.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top