Orci & Kurtzman on plot holes

[Trekker4747]

Nero's ship looked far more advanced than where we think Klingon vessels are by the time of Nero's arrival.

Lower our time frame a little and make it the WWI era. Would the biplane-flying German government of that era be able to repair and fuel and fly a seriously-damaged 767?

I don't think so.

Joe, who doesn't think so

Given 25 years to study it? Not the computers, but the engines and fuel, maybe.


But the larger point is, technological progression isn't a straight line. where any span of 125 years will do. In fact, if we look at the standbys of treknology, there's a good chance all the basic principles would be known already. In both time periods, the primary FTL drive system is warp, the primary sublight drive system is impulse, the primary power source is matter-antimatter annihilation, the primary defensive tech are shields. Sounds like the differences are mostly a matter of engineering, scale, and materials.

Pretty much my thoughts. The basic principles will remain the same. If I drove up to Henry Ford circa 1908 with my 2000 Focus he should have little trouble working on the engine. Sure there's some major changes to engine design (cams instead of push-rods, fuel injection instead of a carbeurator) but if he had 25 years to work on it and figure it out he' should be able to since the fundamentals of car engines hasn't changed greatly over the last 100 years. It's still an anhilation of fuel inside a combustion chamber which moves pistong which turns a cam which turns gears in the transmission.

Technology has a habit of reaching a "stand still" when it reaches a certain point baring a major technological breakthru.

Someone living in 1947 would be scratching his head over looking at a present-day computer as his entire electronics world circles around vaccum tubs. Somone living in 1967 has knowledge of intergrated circuit boards. Stuff we still use today. The basics of computer technology hasn't changed in nearly 40 years. Yes, we've minaturized things more, and we've simplified things and we've managed to "get more out of" it but the basics of it are the same.

The Klingons with their hands on 180-some years advanced technology shouldn't have much trouble reversenegineering things, especailly inside 25 years.

I think we'll just have to assume "something" happened that prevented the Klingons from getting their hands on the Romulan ship. Maybe Nero had a really good Lojack system in it that precluded entry by the Klingons.

 

[Peter the Younger]

I think we'll just have to assume "something" happened that prevented the Klingons from getting their hands on the Romulan ship. Maybe Nero had a really good Lojack system in it that precluded entry by the Klingons.

Well, when Klingons don't understand technology, they tend to headbutt it.

(Actually I'm kidding. I really don't want the explanation to be, "Klingons are stoopid!")

 

[Tralah]

When it comes to the Klingons not being able to reverse engineer from the Narada, if we accept the Countdown comics that show the ship being made with Borg technology, I could buy that the Borg tech would be wholly incomprehensible to the Klingons of that time period. Plus, the Klingons have never been shown as a race that has had much innovation or cutting edge scientific discoveries due to the value due to the misguidedly disproportional value they place on their warrior caste. Most of the technology the Klingons have seems to be acquired from other races with the Klingons learning enough to maintain it but rarely creating their own significant advances.

 

[Trekker4747]

When it comes to the Klingons not being able to reverse engineer from the Narada, if we accept the Countdown comics that show the ship being made with Borg technology, I could buy that the Borg tech would be wholly incomprehensible to the Klingons of that time period. Plus, the Klingons have never been shown as a race that has had much innovation or cutting edge scientific discoveries due to the value due to the misguidedly disproportional value they place on their warrior caste. Most of the technology the Klingons have seems to be acquired from other races with the Klingons learning enough to maintain it but rarely creating their own significant advances.

Just because we've never seen Klingon scientists doesn't mean they do not exsist. The warriors are just "more visual" as they're the ones out there in space.

But, yeah, if the ship was using Borg tech then it'd likely be recongnizeable to the Klingons.

 

[Psion]

The shockwave, at least half of it was on the far side of the BH and sent the Enterprise on it's way.

A shockwave requires a medium such as air. There is no matter of consequence in the vacuum of space.

Perhaps we should forward your concerns to the designers of the Orion pulse-detonation drive.

 

[Tralah]

Just because we've never seen Klingon scientists doesn't mean they do not exsist. The warriors are just "more visual" as they're the ones out there in space.

They certainly do exist, but there is evidence that the Klingon society and culture does not place as much value and support in its non-warrior castes. In fact there's a TNG episode that does have a Klingon scientist in it who laments about this very thing. I'm sorry I cannot recall the episode name though.

 

[Lynn Minmay]

Will have to read later tonight...

 

[Mr. B]

Perhaps we should forward your concerns to the designers of the Orion pulse-detonation drive.

Are any of them still alive?

 

[Praetor]

the Narada was built to travel through black holes? I didn't get that impression from Countdown. I thought it was just an accident.

I take "Built to" as "Built tough enough to."

Me too.

Dude I thought they threaded a pretty tight needle.

1. Please (most of the) fans

2. Introduce Trek to a wide, blockbuster audience

3. Connect new Trek to previous continuity

4. Tell an origin story that ends up with the crew on the bridge ready to go for a sequel

5. Tell a compelling story that stands up on its own merits

6. Be a critical success

OK. Seriously. I think they're firing on most if not all cylinders here. To quote Pike, I dare you to do better.

I tend to agree. While there are things in the actual design that I'd have preferred done differently, I didn't make the movie.

(Some more rewrites to polish might not have hurt though, but I'm under the impression the writer's strike pretty much negated any chance of that.)

so, Winona's a Starfleet officer by allusion to her being off-planet? what only Starfleet officers go off-planet?

"House" proves she's a medical officer.

Here's something I haven't seen explained: the reference to Nero solving the Romulan Empire's energy crisis via discovery of large deposits of lithium on Delta Vega that was mentioned in his profile on the website. Was this in 2387 or between 2233 and 2258, and was this the Delta Vega in Vulcan's system or the Delta Vega in the far-reaches? If it was between 2233-2258, the Romulans may be packing more than plasma weapons when they emerge from the Neutral Zone. Indeed, that may be what that Laurentian System business was all about...

 

[Holodoc]

In the minds of the creators, the focus of the plot is that Nero’s destruction of the timeline has altered history to the point that the all important friendship of Kirk and Spock is now threatened. If these two don’t come together, the fabric of space and time itself is endangered (as we have witnessed by the universe itself being saved countless times over the last 40 years). Kirk “coincidentally” running into Spock Prime is an example of fate itself trying to bring these two together.

No.

Just... just no.

Kirk and Spock have never saved 'the universe'. They've saved people, each other, colonies, alien worlds, Earth, and peace negotations, but they've never saved the universe, ever, from anything. And even if that were the case, nothing's ever intervened to save existence before; not when McCoy saved Edith Keeler, not when the Borg assimilated 21st century earth, not when Picard's anti-time anomaly nearly wiped out human life from ever originating. The universe doesn't save itself; the heroes save it. But the worst element of that is the inclusion of 'fate'. I'd rather it was blind coincidence, or sheer authorial contrivance. There's no 'fate' in Star Trek! Star Trek is a humanistic universe, one where their may be gods, but they're not taking a direct hand in our universe, and if they are they're not strong enough to force anything. If it was so important for Kirk and Spock to be friends, then the writers should have actually bothered coming up with an organic way for them to work through their difficulties and become friends, not just have some other Spock show up, driven by 'fate', and frakking tell Kirk to be friends with Spock!

 

[Photoman15]

In the minds of the creators, the focus of the plot is that Nero’s destruction of the timeline has altered history to the point that the all important friendship of Kirk and Spock is now threatened. If these two don’t come together, the fabric of space and time itself is endangered (as we have witnessed by the universe itself being saved countless times over the last 40 years). Kirk “coincidentally” running into Spock Prime is an example of fate itself trying to bring these two together.

No.

Just... just no.

Kirk and Spock have never saved 'the universe'. They've saved people, each other, colonies, alien worlds, Earth, and peace negotations, but they've never saved the universe, ever, from anything. And even if that were the case, nothing's ever intervened to save existence before; not when McCoy saved Edith Keeler, not when the Borg assimilated 21st century earth, not when Picard's anti-time anomaly nearly wiped out human life from ever originating. The universe doesn't save itself; the heroes save it. But the worst element of that is the inclusion of 'fate'. I'd rather it was blind coincidence, or sheer authorial contrivance. There's no 'fate' in Star Trek! Star Trek is a humanistic universe, one where their may be gods, but they're not taking a direct hand in our universe, and if they are they're not strong enough to force anything. If it was so important for Kirk and Spock to be friends, then the writers should have actually bothered coming up with an organic way for them to work through their difficulties and become friends, not just have some other Spock show up, driven by 'fate', and frakking tell Kirk to be friends with Spock!

Since Gene was an atheist, then fate is the only thing that it could have been.

 

[Holodoc]

If there is no supernatural aspect to the universe, what would account for fate?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If there is no supernatural aspect to the universe, what would account for fate?

Q

 

[Phily B]

That'd be interesting, Q didn't seem tied to any one timeline and moved between realities quite easily.

 

[DarthMojo]

Here are some more bits & pieces that bugged me while watching the film:

- It sure is mighty convenient that the autopilot circuit just happens to get wiped out on the Kelvin. Even so, you're telling me in the 60+ seconds it took for the Kelvin to ram Nero's ship, Kirk couldn't get out? How much piloting was neccessary was to fly the Kelvin in a straight line towards an impossible-to-miss target?

- Kirk and Sulu are beamed back to the Enterprise a half second before they slam into the surface of Vulcan. Ok, fine. But since they were still "falling" when they arrived, shouldn't they have been splattered all over the transporter pad?

- Speaking of beaming, why did it take 2 seconds to beam out Kirk & Sulu but the transporter decides to "slow down" when beaming the Vulcans out, allowing enough time to let Spock's mom "slip" out of the beam?

- Orci & Kurtzman said they needed an "Achillie's Heel" that would make Spock loose his cool when Kirk tried to prove his emotional compromise. So they established early in the film that maligning his mother does the trick. GIVE ME A BREAK, guys! That's the best you could do? "Yo, Spock, your mother!" The oldest, most obvious insult tactic in the world?

They talked about this at the writer's Q&A - listen to the podcast here for that and other stuff that didn't make it into my blog post:

http://tinyurl.com/32ahux

 

[Gepard]

- It sure is mighty convenient that the autopilot circuit just happens to get wiped out on the Kelvin. Even so, you're telling me in the 60+ seconds it took for the Kelvin to ram Nero's ship, Kirk couldn't get out? How much piloting was neccessary was to fly the Kelvin in a straight line towards an impossible-to-miss target?

On that one, George had spent all the time he was on the bridge shooting down missiles aimed at the Kelvin and the shuttles. I assume he was continuing to do that as the flew the ship in in order to buy everyone as much time as possible.

Also, considering the size of the Kelvin and how long it took Robau to get to a shuttle and depart, I'm not sure 60 seconds would be enough time to get all the way to the shuttle bay, get strapped in, do preflight, and take off. And do we know that there were even any shuttles left? I'd think the evacuees would have used all they could get their hands on.

 

[Holodoc]

- Orci & Kurtzman said they needed an "Achillie's Heel" that would make Spock loose his cool when Kirk tried to prove his emotional compromise. So they established early in the film that maligning his mother does the trick. GIVE ME A BREAK, guys! That's the best you could do? "Yo, Spock, your mother!" The oldest, most obvious insult tactic in the world? http://tinyurl.com/32ahux

That, I don't have a problem with. The reason it's the oldest, most obvious insult tactic in the world is that it works; people love their mothers. And for Spock, whose mother was an inferior alien living among his people, who was quantifiably not as strong, not as smart, not as well-adapted to desert living, and not as capable of self-control, that's going to be a massive target for anyone who wants to try and get his goat. The fact that she had also just died when Kirk decides to act like an utterly reprehensible person would make that an even more sensitive issue for Spock.

I certainly agree with the utter contrivance that was the transporter losing Amanda. Not only had we just seen the transporters work faster with Kirk and Sulu (the delay there was entirely due to their constant motion), but the transporters in ENT, which is still entirely canon in this universe, worked faster and more efficiently, too.

 

[Psion]

Perhaps we should forward your concerns to the designers of the Orion pulse-detonation drive.

Are any of them still alive?

Freeman Dyson is. However, that's irrelevant since the point of the reference was to refute your notions about the value of an explosion in space for thrust.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Maybe Nero had a really good Lojack system in it that precluded entry by the Klingons.

Although the Klingons have the intellectual capability, it's not hard to imagine any number of political scenarios that would have mired their back-engineering efforts. I can see one House making great progress, only to have it lost, scientistst possibly killed.
For me, the bigger stretch is: Nero and Crew getting their ship back. And then, managing to wipe out 47 Klingon ships. So, you've made a Doomsday ship. Your name is Schinzon. Or Nero. What's to stop a small number of ships, controlled remotely, from just warping into the thing from medium range?

 

[Holodoc]

If there is no supernatural aspect to the universe, what would account for fate?

Q

But then it's neither fate nor the universe, it's Q. And the writers explicitly said that it was fate. QED, it wasn't Q.