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Operation: Annihilate Question

If you want to mention Star Trek's contemporaries that did a better job with women, don't forget The Big Valley (1965-1969). Barbara Stanwyck was the star, and she had all the independence, dynamism, and leadership in her part that a male lead would have had. When the situation was dire, she was as gritty and resourceful as Kirk. And it wasn't done as the Feminist Statement of the Week either; she just happened to be a strong character.

If Gene Roddenberry hadn't been such an extreme "male chauvinist" (a dated term, but it applies), he would have cast the ship's doctor, the third lead, as a woman. The ideal candidate would have been Marianna Hill (Helen Noel). And given only the level of gender fairness that was becoming fairly common at the time in TV writing, she would have been a great character in addition to just bringing balance to the cast.
 
^Wouldn't Hill have been a little young to play the chief medical officer? You'd want someone in her upper 30s or early 40s, I'd think.

Worth noting that Space: 1999, which had a similar commander/science officer/doctor core trio to TOS, did cast a woman (Barbara Bain) as its doctor -- and in the second season had a female science officer (Catherine Schell) as well.
 
^Wouldn't Hill have been a little young to play the chief medical officer? You'd want someone in her upper 30s or early 40s, I'd think.

The military promotes doctors young because such well-educated people have other opportunities and they're hard to recruit. A medical doctor stuck in a spaceship for five years is giving up a lot of potential earnings, so I think only a young medical graduate would be interested.

And young is okay in a hot woman; people are very forgiving of this. What if the show runs ten years?

The fatherly old doctor was just a Hollywood cliche. Boyce and Piper were cliches. McCoy was better but still brought very little to the table that the cast didn't already have.

Edit: I just figured out the real reason the third lead had to be a man. If the doctor was a woman, Gene would have to explain to Majel why she wasn't getting the part. And "Honey, you have no charisma" is not a statement that gets you laid at night.
 
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Most of the examples of other shows you give doing better than TOS are spy shows and spies do not do the glamorous things as shown in MI, The Man From Uncle, The Avengers. Unless of course thats what the spies want us to believe and its all martini drinking and gambling and speed boat chases. ;)

And while Audrey and Barbara Stanwick were strong women, they were gentry and while not afraid to muck out a stall or two, it was their character not their jobs that women could look up to.

And Space 1999, Blakes7 etc all came after TOS. 10 years makes a big difference.

And I think GR started out with good intentions but interference from the studio (no women punching, no girlfriend as co-star) and his own free-love beliefs led to the deterioration that ended up with the last line in TOS being "... Her life could have been as rich as any woman's, if only. If only."

Still the other shows aren't without flaws in the Avengers - Emma Peel quit the team because her husband returned and presumably she needed to stop her professional life and be a good wife.
 
No women punching? Was that for real?

"Gentry"? Why does this make Victoria Barkley someone not to be looked up to? She held the same position as Ben Cartwright or John Cannon.
 
Seriously, nothing I've seen of Marianna Hill convinces me that she could have been the 3rd lead of the show. Fan love for her obvious charms aside, she never struck me as having that je ne sais quoi a lead needs.
 
Seriously, nothing I've seen of Marianna Hill convinces me that she could have been the 3rd lead of the show. Fan love for her obvious charms aside, she never struck me as having that je ne sais quoi a lead needs.

I'll bet they could have gotten Sally Kellerman (Dr. Dehner) as third lead, at that point in her career. She would have been great, and certainly had the presence needed for an authority figure.

[Yeah, I know, but a slight re-edit of WNM's final scene on the bridge would fix that. Simply edit the dialog and add a Captain's Log voice over to imply that she's below decks recuperating nicely. And then, just as physist Sulu became helmsman, Dehner could have become Chief Medical Officer.]
 
Most of the examples of other shows you give doing better than TOS are spy shows and spies do not do the glamorous things as shown in MI, The Man From Uncle, The Avengers. Unless of course thats what the spies want us to believe and its all martini drinking and gambling and speed boat chases. ;)

Unlike astronauts, who in real life spend most of their careers going to meetings and taking classes on how to press buttons when necessary.
 
Most of the examples of other shows you give doing better than TOS are spy shows and spies do not do the glamorous things as shown in MI, The Man From Uncle, The Avengers. Unless of course thats what the spies want us to believe and its all martini drinking and gambling and speed boat chases. ;)

Unlike astronauts, who in real life spend most of their careers going to meetings and taking classes on how to press buttons when necessary.

Indeed. Spy shows like Mission: Impossible are bad because they romanticize the profession; Science fiction shows like Star Trek are good because...they romanticize the profession?

I'm honestly not sure what to make of your argument, CommishSleer.

I'm also curious about the claim that the studio dictated "no women punching." Meaning, no women could be punched, or no women could punch? And what's the source here?
 
I'm also curious about the claim that the studio dictated "no women punching." Meaning, no women could be punched, or no women could punch? And what's the source here?

There's a bad moment in "The Gamesters of Triskelion" that I wish Kirk never had.
 
And young is okay in a hot woman; people are very forgiving of this.

So the only reason you have for suggesting Hill is because you think she's hot? That's hardly a desirable attitude if we're talking about egalitarian casting. To work, the female lead would have to be a strong actress playing a strong, rich character. Of course the casting people would want all their leads, male and female, to be good-looking, but that can't be the sole consideration.


Most of the examples of other shows you give doing better than TOS are spy shows and spies do not do the glamorous things as shown in MI, The Man From Uncle, The Avengers. Unless of course thats what the spies want us to believe and its all martini drinking and gambling and speed boat chases. ;)

I read that these days, real spies pretty much stay in their nations' embassies all the time, because the other side already knows their identities so they can't really go undercover in the field. Instead, they just recruit local assets to pass information to them. So it's basically an office job.

There was a spy show in the '80s called Scarecrow and Mrs. King, with Bruce Boxleitner and Kate Jackson. I liked it because, while it did have its share of spy action, it also acknowledged that being a spy was often a desk job and had its characters dealing with paperwork and bureaucracy and office politics as often as they dealt with gun battles and undercover missions. I liked that about the show. (USA's Covert Affairs was kind of in a similar vein in its first couple of seasons, but it seems to have gone in a more hardcore-action direction since then, which was part of why I lost interest in it.)


And Space 1999, Blakes7 etc all came after TOS. 10 years makes a big difference.

Naturally. I just thought it was worth comparing the way things were done in the two different decades to show how things had changed.


Still the other shows aren't without flaws in the Avengers - Emma Peel quit the team because her husband returned and presumably she needed to stop her professional life and be a good wife.

Yup, that was pretty much the attitude in the '40s through the '60s -- you could be an effective, capable career woman, as smart and brave as any man, but only so long as you were single, because a woman's highest priority in life was still to have children and be a good mother.


No women punching? Was that for real?

I believe so. Batgirl was never allowed to throw punches, because it was unladylike. Her fight moves were mostly kicks, throws, and balletic dodges.

But not punching isn't necessarily an impediment. Martha Landon in "The Apple" got to do some nifty martial-arts moves.


Indeed. Spy shows like Mission: Impossible are bad because they romanticize the profession; Science fiction shows like Star Trek are good because...they romanticize the profession?

I don't think M:I romanticized spy work as much as other shows, because it was more a procedural show than an action/romance show. (In fact, it was a really a heist/sting show dressed up as a spy show because the only way the network could accept portraying thieves and con artists as good guys is if they were stealing and scamming in the name of US and global security.) If anything, it was a bit closer to real spy work, since a lot of what the team did was unseen, crawling around in tunnels and ducts and rigging equipment. And as originally conceived, it was about one professional agent recruiting a team of civilian assets, which is, as I said, a bit like how actual intelligence work is done (although in reality that agent would've been recruiting locals in the target country).
 
I'm honestly not sure what to make of your argument, CommishSleer.

I think she is saying spying is a real world profession that isn't as "nice" as it is shown on shows, but Starships and their crew aren't real so there's no direct real world analogy for comparison. Yes you can say a ship captain is similar to starship captain, but it's still not a direct analogue, there's a gap that can allow one to be really cool without being false, because a real ship's captain rarely does those fantastic things.

Maybe I made it worse.
 
I'm honestly not sure what to make of your argument, CommishSleer.

I think she is saying spying is a real world profession that isn't as "nice" as it is shown on shows, but Starships and their crew aren't real so there's no direct real world analogy for comparison. Yes you can say a ship captain is similar to starship captain, but it's still not a direct analogue, there's a gap that can allow one to be really cool without being false, because a real ship's captain rarely does those fantastic things.

Maybe I made it worse.
But a scientist, doctor, lawyer, psychologist, communications officer, security officer, navigators, engineers, military officers, astronauts are real-life professions that women and men can aspire to. But in the 60s women may not have been allowed or even thought of entering these traditional 'male' professions.

Its only been in the last couple of decades that women have even been allowed to serve in the navy on ships in my country. Maybe in the US it was different and women were always encouraged in these sort of careers. So TOS was nothing big.
 
I don't want to dismiss the importance of Star Trek normalizing female professionals.

But, that message is tempered by the fact that the three most prominent women on the show were a nurse, a secretary, and a glorified switchboard operator (two of whom are defined by their unrequited attraction to one of the male leads).

It's also tempered when the show suggests that women can only be professionals until they find a husband ("Who Mourns for Adonais?").

--

Has anyone seen Tom Corbett, Space Cadet? From a few summaries, the role of Dr. Joan Dale seems pretty remarkable for a series that predated Star Trek by 15 years, but information on the series is pretty scarce online. I wonder if most if it has been lost? There are only a few, seemingly public domain sourced DVDs available.
 
But a scientist, doctor, lawyer, psychologist, communications officer, security officer, navigators, engineers, military officers, astronauts are real-life professions that women and men can aspire to. But in the 60s women may not have been allowed or even thought of entering these traditional 'male' professions.

Not entirely. Look at '60s TV and you will see female scientists and doctors and engineers and lawyers and police officers from time to time. As I said, it wasn't unheard of for women to enter those professions; it was just uncommon, and it was assumed that they'd give up those careers once they got married. Also it was assumed that more dangerous lines of work were strictly for men -- so while there might be a female cop on the force, she'd probably be expected to step aside for dangerous situations and let the menfolk handle them.


Its only been in the last couple of decades that women have even been allowed to serve in the navy on ships in my country. Maybe in the US it was different and women were always encouraged in these sort of careers. So TOS was nothing big.

Nope, women weren't allowed on US Navy combat vessels until a few decades after TOS, I think. And while it was progressive for TOS to have women on a military vessel at all, the show was still very conventional and '60s in the portrayal of the roles those women had on the ship -- they were only communications officers, yeomen, nurses, and occasionally doctors and scientists and JAG officers, but never security or command personnel. And McCoy's dialogue about Carolyn Palamas in the teaser of "Who Mourns for Adonais?" reflects the '60s assumption that a career woman would inevitably give up her career once she got married. So the show's treatment of gender roles was progressive in some ways but very, very conventional in others.
 
I think Time Tunnel had Lee Merriweather as a scientist, although she was desk-based while the chaps had all the fun. She was pretty cool though.
 
The pilot episode of The Time Tunnel has some really nifty visuals of Project Tick Tock, some excellent matte paintings (reminiscent of Forbidden Planet and Colossus: The Forbin Project) that never get used afterward (except maybe once?). But mostly it's typical Irwin Allen fare, and it's heavily reliant on stock footage from historical movies.
 
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