Operation: Annihilate Question

[Mr. Hengist]

Besides, real-life conversations don't reflect the biases of an external writer. Whatever women discuss in real life will reflect their own thoughts and concerns. What gets discussed by female characters written by male authors in a male-dominated industry is a different matter. The Bechdel Test isn't about judging every individual conversation -- it's about what it shows in the aggregate about the inclusion and portrayal of women in fiction.

No, this isn't quite right, because the Bechdel test was created by a lesbian cartoonist almost as a tongue in cheek thing. I can understand why lesbians would not find movies in which the relationships involve heterosexuals to be very interesting and might even be offended by them.

Obviously if I was watching a movie directed at a lesbian audience, and dealing with lesbian relationships, yet it never had two women talking about something other than a man, that would be very offensive. I understand that.

However most mainstream pop culture films and TV are not directed at a lesbian audience. They are directed at heterosexuals.

Which is why Bella was in love with a male vampire and a male werewolf.

Heterosexual women drive the market for mainstream heterosexual romance centered films (i.e. "chick flicks.") You can't hardly have a "chick flick" that doesn't involve women talking about men.

"Action film" market is driven by young heterosexual males and adolescents. Again, they aren't very interested in seeing two women talk about anything unless it is sexually-oriented.

So we return to the underlying question which is what dramatic situations are we really talking about that involve two heterosexual women having a conversation about something that doesn't reference a man, yet would be interesting enough to a typical mainstream audience (i.e. either action flick or chick flick) to make a movie or TV show out of?

I guess you could have a political thriller where the President of the U.S. is a female and the V.P. is also a female and they battle it out with each other.

The problem with a film like that is if there was no relationship drama component you wouldn't get very many real live women to actually bother to go see it. So if there's not going to be a relationship drama as part of it you might as well make the lead characters men, because most heterosexual men aren't going to want to go watch a movie about two female political leaders fighting with each other for political power.

 

[Christopher]

No, this isn't quite right, because the Bechdel test was created by a lesbian cartoonist almost as a tongue in cheek thing. I can understand why lesbians would not find movies in which the relationships involve heterosexuals to be very interesting and might even be offended by them.

Obviously if I was watching a movie directed at a lesbian audience, and dealing with lesbian relationships, yet it never had two women talking about something other than a man, that would be very offensive. I understand that.

Ohh, you are very, very far from understanding it. Lesbians are not concerned exclusively with lesbian issues, any more than brunettes are concerned exclusively with brunette issues. Lesbians are also women, and thus have obvious reason to be concerned about women's issues in general, regardless of the sexuality of said women.

For that matter, plenty of men -- like me -- are concerned about the level of female representation in the media, because we like seeing women included and portrayed as fully realized characters rather than just love interests. And the Test can be a useful, if imperfect, tool for calling attention to the problem. How the Test originated does not define the limits of how it has come to be used in present-day media criticism and analysis. Of course it started as a joke, but it's grown beyond that.

"Action film" market is driven by young heterosexual males and adolescents. Again, they aren't very interested in seeing two women talk about anything unless it is sexually-oriented.

And that's just the kind of lazy, thoughtless generalization that perpetuates the problem. Not all young heterosexual males are as sexist as you allege. And the way you define the question is silly. Audiences are interested in seeing characters talk about things if those characters are well-drawn and their conversations are engaging. If those things are the case, then it won't matter what sex the characters are. That's the point. The problem in the industry is that too many female characters are written as just "The Girl," as one-dimensional entities whose only personality trait is having breasts. They're less interesting to audiences because they're not being written interestingly on anything other than a sexual level. But if you build it, they will come. If you write a rich, compelling character who does interesting things, then audiences will be invested in that character regardless of the character's sex.

The problem with a film like that is if there was no relationship drama component you wouldn't get very many real live women to actually bother to go see it.

Good grief, you really are blinded by lazy gender stereotypes. I don't think you know a thing about what real live women would want, or real live men for that matter. Because real live people are individuals, not blanket generalizations.

 

[Timo]

Well, people are also statistics - and Mr Hengist and I do have pretty much the same statistical experience on what men and women talk about in various combinations and permutations.

It's all fine and well if some individuals or groups behave according to ideals; that gives moral support to those marketing the ideals. But disparaging non-ideal people isn't a worthy pursuit. And mandating that fictional characters follow gender-interaction ideals is a double-edged sword: if you distance your "example" too far from reality, it risks backfiring and ridiculing the ideal.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nebusj]

So we return to the underlying question which is what dramatic situations are we really talking about that involve two heterosexual women having a conversation about something that doesn't reference a man, yet would be interesting enough to a typical mainstream audience (i.e. either action flick or chick flick) to make a movie or TV show out of?

Well, that would be a situation in which there are at minimum two women who have some interest in the plot, and are acting so as to develop the plot, or showcase the setting, or establish character, or provide mood, or make comment, or, you know, all the things that men are expected to do when they're in a story.

 

[Timo]

...A surprisingly relevant bit of statistics there is the ratio of men to women in the main cast of the show or movie in question. That is, how likely is it that two women will have a discussion in the first place? Typically, drama is advanced by dialog between two main characters, or a main character and a supporting character or guest character. And TOS only ever had women as supporting or guest characters.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Commishsleer]

Was this episode the only one where there was red shirt fodder in the landing party but a main character was hit by random fire?
.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Was this episode the only one where there was red shirt fodder in the landing party but a main character was hit by random fire?
.

Spock was hit by those missile thorns in "The Apple", but there were plenty of red shirt deaths too. Maybe other cases on that score, but:

If your question is whether "Operation -- Annihilate!" was the only episode in which only a main character was hit in a landing party despite there being red shirt fodder, then:

- Pike was the only one captured in the original landing party in "The Cage", though Number One and Colt were also captured later. Also, the geologist was the only potential extra in the first landing party (hard to know for sure even in his case, though, since it was a pilot), and I wouldn't consider him a red shirt in any sense of the term (actually also a blue shirt).

- Kirk "got hit" beaming up in "The Enemy Within". No red shirts technically in that party, but plenty of chumps/dudes in jumpsuits.

That's all that springs to my mind.

 

[plynch]

...A surprisingly relevant bit of statistics there is the ratio of men to women in the main cast of the show or movie in question. That is, how likely is it that two women will have a discussion in the first place? Typically, drama is advanced by dialog between two main characters, or a main character and a supporting character or guest character. And TOS only ever had women as supporting or guest characters.

Timo Saloniemi

Exactly. And pretty much always as a love interest to one of the males (i.e. "important" cast members), even when also advancing a plot.

But I give TOS a pass because of its era.

 

[Harvey]

I think the "it was the era" excuse is a bit of a crutch. Yes, there was a lot of sexism in the '60s, but other shows contemporary to Star Trek could and did do better in terms of having women play important characters on them.

Not that such a thing was hard. Star Trek had no primary female characters, and even the three secondary female characters had less to do than their male counterparts.

 

[Commishsleer]

I think the "it was the era" excuse is a bit of a crutch. Yes, there was a lot of sexism in the '60s, but other shows contemporary to Star Trek could and did do better in terms of having women play important characters on them.

What are these shows you speak of? Do these shows inspire women to become, scientists, engineers, fleet commanders?

 

[Christopher]

Mission: Impossible had a regular female lead in six of its seven seasons. The Avengers and Get Smart both featured a male/female duo with the woman being quite strong, capable, and heroic in her own right. Honey West featured a female solo lead as a detective.

 

[Commishsleer]

Mission: Impossible had a regular female lead in six of its seven seasons. The Avengers and Get Smart both featured a male/female duo with the woman being quite strong, capable, and heroic in her own right. Honey West featured a female solo lead as a detective.

I mean I was thinking Emma Peel and I did consider 99 but there is a difference in that they were spies not a real profession. I know there are real-life spies but their lives are not so glamorous.

I've never see 'Honey West' but a woman detective is a great example of a profession unlikely to have may female examples in the 60s.

I think TOS may have inspired female (and male) into the sciences and engineering and maybe into the military. It influenced me. I never considered any 'girly' profession. Not that there's anything wrong with 'girly' professions. Just good to have other options open to you.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Mission: Impossible had a regular female lead in six of its seven seasons. The Avengers and Get Smart both featured a male/female duo with the woman being quite strong, capable, and heroic in her own right. Honey West featured a female solo lead as a detective.

I mean I was thinking Emma Peel and I did consider 99 but there is a difference in that they were spies not a real profession. I know there are real-life spies but their lives are not so glamorous.

I've never see 'Honey West' but a woman detective is a great example of a profession unlikely to have may female examples in the 60s.

I think TOS may have inspired female (and male) into the sciences and engineering and maybe into the military. It influenced me. I never considered any 'girly' profession. Not that there's anything wrong with 'girly' professions. Just good to have other options open to you.

Were you inspired by the female characters ( Uhura, Chapel) or by the show?

 

[Nebusj]

I mean I was thinking Emma Peel and I did consider 99 but there is a difference in that they were spies not a real profession. I know there are real-life spies but their lives are not so glamorous.

I mean, being a spy is great and all, but it's nothing like the life of danger and intrigue and sheer human drama you get from being a professional astrophysicist.

 

[Commishsleer]

Mission: Impossible had a regular female lead in six of its seven seasons. The Avengers and Get Smart both featured a male/female duo with the woman being quite strong, capable, and heroic in her own right. Honey West featured a female solo lead as a detective.

I mean I was thinking Emma Peel and I did consider 99 but there is a difference in that they were spies not a real profession. I know there are real-life spies but their lives are not so glamorous.

I've never see 'Honey West' but a woman detective is a great example of a profession unlikely to have may female examples in the 60s.

I think TOS may have inspired female (and male) into the sciences and engineering and maybe into the military. It influenced me. I never considered any 'girly' profession. Not that there's anything wrong with 'girly' professions. Just good to have other options open to you.

Were you inspired by the female characters ( Uhura, Chapel) or by the show?

Not so much by Chapel and her ridiculous crush but Uhura, Dr Noel, Charlene Masters, the female Romulan Commander, Dr Dehner, Number One, various female scientists. Those who 'normalise' women professionals.

I think maybe its difficult for younger people to understand where there's a plethora of women doctors, lawyers, policeman, detectives shown on TV and movies all the time

 

[Harvey]

I think the "it was the era" excuse is a bit of a crutch. Yes, there was a lot of sexism in the '60s, but other shows contemporary to Star Trek could and did do better in terms of having women play important characters on them.

What are these shows you speak of?

Mission: Impossible ('65) is a good example. I haven't seen them, but it would appear Ironside ('67), The Big Valley ('65), The Girl from U.N.C.L.E. ('66) all had strong female characters as part of their primary casts.

For all the praise it gets, it's worth pointing out that none of Star Trek's three female regulars (each, again, secondary characters -- the three primary character were all men) were deemed worthy of an exclusive contract. Barrett never had one as Chapel, Nichols' contract was terminated in favor of paying her as a day player, and Whitney was simply dumped from the series as soon as contractually possible.

The reason the production didn't bother to make their deals exclusive? The women were on set a fraction of the time compared to their male co-stars.

Not to dismiss the show's producers working to normalize female professionals (although, amusingly, NBC had to chide them at one point for not including enough women as part of landing parties), but it's pretty telling that Uhura is the only regular you refer to in the post above.

 

[Christopher]

Mission: Impossible ('65) is a good example.

'66, actually -- it premiered just nine days after Star Trek did.

I haven't seen them, but it would appear Ironside ('67), The Big Valley ('65), The Girl from U.N.C.L.E. ('66) all had strong female characters as part of their primary casts.

I haven't seen them either, but I've read that the titular girl from UNCLE wasn't really allowed to be as strong as contemporaries like Emma Peel and 99 -- she generally stayed out of fights and depended on her male partner to do all the heroics and rescuing. Or so I gather.

Just remembered another great example of a strong heroine in '60s TV -- Batgirl. She was smart, fearless, and resourceful, able to solve crimes as effectively as Batman without the high-tech resources of a multimillionaire, and she could hold her own very well in action.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think the "it was the era" excuse is a bit of a crutch. Yes, there was a lot of sexism in the '60s, but other shows contemporary to Star Trek could and did do better in terms of having women play important characters on them.

What are these shows you speak of?

Mission: Impossible ('65) is a good example. I haven't seen them, but it would appear Ironside ('67), The Big Valley ('65), The Girl from U.N.C.L.E. ('66) all had strong female characters as part of their primary casts.

Barbara Stanwyck was the head of the Barkley family in "The Big Valley". A female Ben Cartwright, more or less. Perhaps even tougher than Ben.

 

[plynch]

Wow, I forgot about Rand, the most fleshed-out of the three. She interacted with crew (as did Uhura early on) and seemed fully human, rather than hailing frequencies or Spock's love interest.

You are right. Other shows really outdid TOS in having strong women. And they don't even have to be strong, so long as they're not just a relationship-occupier. Was this GR coming through, in that Trek really didn't have a major female secondary? He tried with Number One and Rand, I guess.

 

[Christopher]

^He didn't try very hard with Number One, abandoning the character just because the network didn't like him casting his mistress in the role rather than a more experienced actress. If he'd really been committed to having a strong female lead, he could've simply recast Number One.