Okay, get ready to throw Tomatoes but I liked "Endgame".
- Thread starter JanewayRulz!
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Indeed!
Good question. But I don't think Seven was the only reason Janeway returned. She wanted to save Seven, cure Tuvok of his disease, save the other members of the crew who died, and, dare I say it, salvage what she could of her friendship with Chakotay. I also like to believe there were other, unspoken reasons besides the personal ones. Those reasons exist in my make believe world, anyway.
Exactly!
Which is a theory that been explored as far back as "Time's Arrow", "Tapestry" and again in the scenario presented in "Before & After" vs. "Year of Hell".
What's to say Voyager coming home sooner with medical & tactical info. while tampering with time doesn't save more lives and not erase them? What if Species 8472 did attack Earth while Voyager was still away and bringing Voyager home sooner prevents billions of lives lost in a war with them? What if the technolgy Voyager brings home sooner helps rebuild Cardassia or Romulus thus turning them from enemies to allies?
Janeway wanted a family to come home too.
Good question. But I don't think Seven was the only reason Janeway returned. She wanted to save Seven, cure Tuvok of his disease, save the other members of the crew who died, and, dare I say it, salvage what she could of her friendship with Chakotay. I also like to believe there were other, unspoken reasons besides the personal ones. Those reasons exist in my make believe world, anyway.
She lost Mark, her dog was long dead and the puppies long given away. Janeway comes home to an empty house. Look at "Endgame", theyd all moved on with their lives, who's going to look after Janeway as she grows old? Not even Kirk wanted to be alone, he stayed in the Nexus just to be with a fictional version of that. Look at Tuvok, he was in a mental ward, lived amoug the Voyager crew for yeeears and nobody was coming to visit him. That's what Adm. Janeway had to look forward too. Janeway coming home young gives her a chance to find another man, too create the life she wanted before Voyager got lost.
The lack of any evidence to that effect...
It's not like they couldn't have made it seem like the original future timeline really sucked. It seems clear to me that either we're not supposed to walk away with that impression or the writers dropped the ball badly in terms of portraying it.
There is also no evidence that Adm.Janeway bringing home Voyager sooner causes and mass genocide as folks keep speculating either.
Janeway was a bitchy old spinster, Tuvok is crazy & Seven & Chakotay are dead. How does that future not suck?
It doesn't suck because the Federation's still standing, most of her crew are (presumably, admittedly) alive and well, Kim's a captain, the Doc has a GF...
Meanwhile, anyone Voyager might have helped during the years it was still in the DQ have just been flipped the bird.
Suppose in the new timeline Miral dies at age 2, the Doc is reset by Starfleet, and Seven's sent to a lab for an indefinite period of analysis. Would Janeway's cheat still have been worth it? Let's also suppose the majority of the Voyager crew end up killed when the Borg attack during the events of Destiny, if we need to further up the stakes.
If you don't know what effects your temporal hijinks are going to cause, screwing around with the timeline to save 3 people is reckless and selfish.
It's a shame in this timeline Janeway never did get to meet Annorax. They could have had a conversation about placing your own self-interest over anyone who gets in your way.
Meanwhile, anyone Voyager might have helped during the years it was still in the DQ have just been flipped the bird.
Suppose in the new timeline Miral dies at age 2, the Doc is reset by Starfleet, and Seven's sent to a lab for an indefinite period of analysis. Would Janeway's cheat still have been worth it? Let's also suppose the majority of the Voyager crew end up killed when the Borg attack during the events of Destiny, if we need to further up the stakes.
If you don't know what effects your temporal hijinks are going to cause, screwing around with the timeline to save 3 people is reckless and selfish.
It's a shame in this timeline Janeway never did get to meet Annorax. They could have had a conversation about placing your own self-interest over anyone who gets in your way.
The Captain whatdoesgodneedwithastarshiped the Admiral well enough.
Exodus the genocide i always refer to is the demolition of time. Certain lives get demoted to potential lives which get demoted to nothingness. If you reprioritize the reality of timelines then you reprioritize the reality of the people living on those reprioritized realities... Or is it not the murder of every one alive on the planet now if someone goes back in time and kills Hitler recharting the course of future history that millions and millions of people never died from the war and the camps, that labour distribution, breeding patterns and resource management wouldn create a new world if even every one was equally happy.
If she cared about Tuvok, she would have brought a compatible Vulcan with her to fix him on the spot.
Do you mean along to the Delta quadrant? That was an unplanned trip. The original plan was to find the Maquis as well as find out what happened to Tuvok after he stopped reporting in. Bringing along a spare woman or two really wasn't a priority. Besides, the only "compatible" woman for Tuvok would be his wife. It seems the writers forgot that with the stupid holodeck B plot.
Oh, no, he needed a mind meld from compatible Vulcan (I doubt gender came into it) to fix up a nurological disorder not blueballs... greenballs (I feel that I have made this joke before?), the green balls of which was taken care of with a holowife in the Bside from Body and Soul.
Hm.
You know, if you subscribe to the multiverse theory, you can at least argue that Admiral Janeway didn't change time, just created yet another alternate timeline (I hereby propose YAAT as an acronym).
I find that a bit more palatable than the "Janeway overwrote everyone's lives" theory, though that seems to be the one TPTB had in mind.
You know, if you subscribe to the multiverse theory, you can at least argue that Admiral Janeway didn't change time, just created yet another alternate timeline (I hereby propose YAAT as an acronym).
I find that a bit more palatable than the "Janeway overwrote everyone's lives" theory, though that seems to be the one TPTB had in mind.
I don't think the writers intended a Multiverse, we clearly followed the path of One voyager crew, although they encountered numerous other Voyagers..
I just finished watching the whole series for the first time, and here are my 2 cents about the last few episodes.
I felt Endgame was too short, it should have been a 3 parter. Neelix should have never left Voyager, that whole episode could have been cancelled. In stead, the extra time should have gone into a somewhat better plot development for End Game, as well as the Real arrival on earth.. I wanted to see the Doctor arrive :@:@
Also, i felt they wanted to do to much in Endgame.. The whole Chakotay / Seven of Nine thing just felt creepy & unnatural.. Also Tuvok's Disease was bs, they should have either touched that toppic a few episodes before, to make it real, or they should have done without it..
The last thing that I didn't like was the fact that the Future Janeway didn't try to bargain with normal Janeway, when she refused to use the Hub, and instead tried to destroy it. First thing I thought was: You've got a Pimped out Voyager, with anti Borg weapons from the future. Clearly, she could have made a case for Using the hub, and then deliver the technology on earth. That way they could have saved lives And got them back..
I just finished watching the whole series for the first time, and here are my 2 cents about the last few episodes.
I felt Endgame was too short, it should have been a 3 parter. Neelix should have never left Voyager, that whole episode could have been cancelled. In stead, the extra time should have gone into a somewhat better plot development for End Game, as well as the Real arrival on earth.. I wanted to see the Doctor arrive :@:@
Also, i felt they wanted to do to much in Endgame.. The whole Chakotay / Seven of Nine thing just felt creepy & unnatural.. Also Tuvok's Disease was bs, they should have either touched that toppic a few episodes before, to make it real, or they should have done without it..
The last thing that I didn't like was the fact that the Future Janeway didn't try to bargain with normal Janeway, when she refused to use the Hub, and instead tried to destroy it. First thing I thought was: You've got a Pimped out Voyager, with anti Borg weapons from the future. Clearly, she could have made a case for Using the hub, and then deliver the technology on earth. That way they could have saved lives And got them back..
If janeway wasn't saving her friends from suffering because they still existed in an alternate timeline, but now they existed without her because she abandoned them wanting to live off her days in a fantasy world where everything isn't so difficult because everything bends to her will... That just makes her a tourist and a loser.
Imagine your friend is going to spend the next 5 years slowly dying of cancer, but instead of holding their hand and their hair, you wander off forever to instead play with a clone of your friend sans cancer because perhaps it's less sad.
Admiral Janeway is an asshole if this is true.
The writers are idiots (A person is smart, people are idiots. So many writers.). Fury disconnected the last season from episode 5 onward. Every thing that happened between episode 5 and fury could have been subtly to magnificently different because there was a dead ocampan onboard and blood on Janeways hands.
Meanwhile this whole thread began with asking why Before and After never happened, or happened like we saw itby half way through the fourth season?
Meanwhile are we to believe that because Seven knew that the Borg founded the federation, that the Borg were completely aware of the outcome of the excursion into Earths history during first Contact, their fricking loss... And they just rolled with it?
..because all of that would be bullshit.
When have we even seen any episode or series of Trek that things didn't work out to the benefit of everyone in the end?
We watched 7 years of a show that had a ship than never had a scratch on it and every truly traumatic experience was a reset. It took not signing a contract to get a member of DS9 to die during a war. They even tried ending "Nemesis" on a high note after blowing up Data. Those in charge of Trek have never, ever created the types conclusion you suggest. Trek has never been about anything but positive out comes. What Adm. Janeway did is no threat to anyone because it would never be written that way.
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Well, yes. Shining a light on the truth doesn't help our make believe pontificating.
Well, yes. Shining a light on the truth doesn't help our make believe pontificating.
So...Janeway's decisions worked out for the best because God (i.e. the Writers) wouldn't allow them to turn out otherwise?
You've completely changed my thoughts on the episode. Best. Finale. Ever!!!
Cute....but it's true.
The TPTB make all the featured Captain's heroes. They thought enough of Janeway to give her the rank of Admiral. They aren't going to turn around and also make her a mass murderer in the finale. They would never end a series like that.
So killing Borg doesn't count?
I mean if there's no tactical advantage to massive Borg casualties, are Starfleet captains allowed to wade hip deep into all that blood without an ounce of remorse, compassion? or consequence
This is the final.
If they wanted Janeway to be a fricking hero, she should have LIBERATED and freed half (more? All of it!) of the collective. Become some sort of Space Abraham Lincoln. But her standing as a hero is measured in borg corpses?
BAH!
Imagine if the Queen had been freed...
"What have I done? What have I done?"
Remember Muse?
That's the sort of shit that would have gone down well fomr the play.
Janeway showed mercy and built a friendship
Buffy the Vampire Slayer said it best to Glory in season 5 "[bile]Home[/bile]? [disbelief]that's your big plan[/disbelief]? You want to go [anger]home[/anger]?"
The complete mirror to Caretaker would have been meeting another Nacene, it would have been passing on an opportunity to go home to help someone who would be frakked if Janeway tried to leg it.
Which brings us back to Borg emancipation.
Imagine if instead of Admiral Janeway from the future had shown up to Give Captain Janeway options, it had been the Borg resistance last seen in Unimatrix Zero?
"It's been a hard year Captain, but we think we can finally end this forever with your help. Will you help us?"
Think about this.
Janeway didn't destroy the Borg she just took away a toy.
A toy they can easily replace by assimilating a few dozen worlds.
A few dozen worlds they hadn't planned on assimilating yet because they didn't need to and were not prepared that particular resource management... You know like how your own finances go tits up after your inlaw crashes your car, when you've always insisted that third party insurance was for gimps and suddenly you're taking a high interest loan from some one with bloody knuckles.
Tits up.
I mean if there's no tactical advantage to massive Borg casualties, are Starfleet captains allowed to wade hip deep into all that blood without an ounce of remorse, compassion? or consequence
This is the final.
If they wanted Janeway to be a fricking hero, she should have LIBERATED and freed half (more? All of it!) of the collective. Become some sort of Space Abraham Lincoln. But her standing as a hero is measured in borg corpses?
BAH!
Imagine if the Queen had been freed...
"What have I done? What have I done?"
Remember Muse?
That's the sort of shit that would have gone down well fomr the play.
Janeway showed mercy and built a friendship
Buffy the Vampire Slayer said it best to Glory in season 5 "[bile]Home[/bile]? [disbelief]that's your big plan[/disbelief]? You want to go [anger]home[/anger]?"
The complete mirror to Caretaker would have been meeting another Nacene, it would have been passing on an opportunity to go home to help someone who would be frakked if Janeway tried to leg it.
Which brings us back to Borg emancipation.
Imagine if instead of Admiral Janeway from the future had shown up to Give Captain Janeway options, it had been the Borg resistance last seen in Unimatrix Zero?
"It's been a hard year Captain, but we think we can finally end this forever with your help. Will you help us?"
Think about this.
Janeway didn't destroy the Borg she just took away a toy.
A toy they can easily replace by assimilating a few dozen worlds.
A few dozen worlds they hadn't planned on assimilating yet because they didn't need to and were not prepared that particular resource management... You know like how your own finances go tits up after your inlaw crashes your car, when you've always insisted that third party insurance was for gimps and suddenly you're taking a high interest loan from some one with bloody knuckles.
Tits up.
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