Okay, get ready to throw Tomatoes but I liked "Endgame".

[Guy Gardener]

I wouldn't say that any of them were evil Froot.

Anorax wasn't killing anyone, because they had never been born, meanwhile the nicest possible explanation of what Admiral Janeway was doing was that she was exploring a divergent timeline (Which she technically created which makes her both god and centre of the universe.)which had no impact on her home timeline which makes her a busybody rather than an "omnicidal" maniac like I usually rant on about, meanwhile Ransom didn't have any swell tricks to out run what he had did (or fold the universe in over itself) except speed and distance but quite honestly, he only killed a few dozen barely sentient space cows so he's hardly in the same league as the other two.

None of that is evil, but it is cowardly. They were afraid to face the consequences of their actions and live in a world that was manifest of the choices they made. It really reminds me of Smith editing old newspapers to make the Big Brothers new lies into goodspeak but in the real world with meat and stars.

All three of them should have drowned in shame but regret makes you sleep your life away, so they did something about in the worst way possible.

The last dozen or so episodes were hard to get through and samey Froot, and when it was done, it was done. There was no more forward momentum to continue on watching and re-watching, it was time to investigate new shows that would be around for much much longer like Firefly or Crusade.

 

[exodus]

Anyways, exodus, I guess I do see your point. It was pretty obvious they were trying to show in Equinox what could have been for Voyager had they been less fortunate. I don't think Janeway would fall to Ransom's point without pretty hardcore circumstances (something even worse than YoH or whatever happened in the original Endgame timeline,) but she did prove in Equinox that she could start down that path if nudged

Froot, Yes agreed.

Hear me out. Endgame was the epitome of what VOY became. For better or for worse. It had time travel, Borg, alternate realities, shaky science, kewl space battles, a crazy Janeway (Admiral anyway, I think Captain Janeway was pretty normal given the circumstances she was thrust into.), a god mode Voyager, and the Borg Queen. Some people hate VOY precisely because that was what the show became. But, I liked it.

Akiraprise.
Preach it!



Now someone please get Grandma a fan.
She done caught the Holy Ghost!

 

[kimc]

So back to Endgame. Endgame was the VOY show condensed into a two hour finale. Warts and all. If you didn't like VOY and just watched the finale you rolled your eyes, came on TrekBBS and told everyone the show was a piece of shit and so was the finale, and moved on.

Interesting theory however I do consider myself a Voyager fan despite all the show's faults and I've yet to stomach a re-watch since the thing aired. Perhaps someday...

 

[Akiraprise]

Give in, give in to the endgame.

Here's some homework for some folks. If you haven't seen Endgame since it first aired, or if it's been many years since you last watched it, and you remember loathing it why not watch it again? Maybe the passage of time has lessened your disgust. Maybe it's just as terrible as you remembered. Come back to this thread and let us know.

 

[david g]

I dont understand why anyone has to apologize for liking ENDGAME. Personally, I *love* ENDGAME, which, with the exception of C/7, has just about everything I love about VOY, and in spades.

 

[froot]

So back to Endgame. Endgame was the VOY show condensed into a two hour finale. Warts and all. If you didn't like VOY and just watched the finale you rolled your eyes, came on TrekBBS and told everyone the show was a piece of shit and so was the finale, and moved on. If you liked VOY for what it was, basically a fun little Trek show that did not take itself too seriously, you liked Endgame.

I guess I never saw VOY that way. I enjoyed the show, loved the characters, and was sorely disappointed by Endgame because we didn't see enough resolution. Many people who liked VOY did not like Endgame.

It's too bad Pathways and Mosaic were never totally adapted over to the screen, as those made me really adore the characters and give them the full background I wanted. The ending of Pathways particularly defines the show for me - so, yes, I did want to see some resolution when they got home. I wasn't happy with just some space battles, nor do I think that was what the show was about or became. (And this is from someone who doesn't much dig the last 5 or so episodes.) I realize those aren't canon, but bits did come up in-show.

And, Guy, Firefly is a classic. I love Firefly so much! But I'm just as happy throwing in a VOY DVD.

EDIT: Okay, I'mma try for an Endgame re-watch tomorrow. We'll see how long I last. I'm not going near Human Error, though!

 

[exodus]

So back to Endgame. Endgame was the VOY show condensed into a two hour finale. Warts and all. If you didn't like VOY and just watched the finale you rolled your eyes, came on TrekBBS and told everyone the show was a piece of shit and so was the finale, and moved on. If you liked VOY for what it was, basically a fun little Trek show that did not take itself too seriously, you liked Endgame.

I guess I never saw VOY that way. I enjoyed the show, loved the characters, and was sorely disappointed by Endgame because we didn't see enough resolution. Many people who liked VOY did not like Endgame.

Understood but I also think that's why Akiraprise is asking some to re-watch it. Now that you know what to expect as an ending, will re-watching it change your perspective. While I can't speak for everyone, it did for me.

There are ALLOT of Janeway/Mulgrew fans in this forum.
While the ending might leave us hanging, why not just enjoy it for what Mulgrew brings too it. Enjoy it for Alice Krige. I don't find the whole two hours a wasre just due to the last 5 mins. Know what I mean?

 

[froot]

So back to Endgame. Endgame was the VOY show condensed into a two hour finale. Warts and all. If you didn't like VOY and just watched the finale you rolled your eyes, came on TrekBBS and told everyone the show was a piece of shit and so was the finale, and moved on. If you liked VOY for what it was, basically a fun little Trek show that did not take itself too seriously, you liked Endgame.

I guess I never saw VOY that way. I enjoyed the show, loved the characters, and was sorely disappointed by Endgame because we didn't see enough resolution. Many people who liked VOY did not like Endgame.

Understood but I also think that's why Akiraprise is asking some to re-watch it. Now that you know what to expect as an ending, will re-watching it change your perspective. While I can't speak for everyone, it did for me.

There are ALLOT of Janeway/Mulgrew fans in this forum.
While the ending might leave us hanging, why not just enjoy it for what Mulgrew brings too it. Enjoy it for Alice Krige. I don't find the whole two hours a wasre just due to the last 5 mins. Know what I mean?

Well, I know I'm still going to get teary-eyed when Janeway whispers "we did it" at the end I always have! That's a scene I like very much.

I guess I could just watch for the wonderous Alice Krige and double Janeway... am I allowed to fast-forward the C/7 scenes at least? Or do I have to be legit and watch 'em all? I could probably do it if I had a beer or two.

 

[exodus]

I guess I never saw VOY that way. I enjoyed the show, loved the characters, and was sorely disappointed by Endgame because we didn't see enough resolution. Many people who liked VOY did not like Endgame.

Understood but I also think that's why Akiraprise is asking some to re-watch it. Now that you know what to expect as an ending, will re-watching it change your perspective. While I can't speak for everyone, it did for me.

There are ALLOT of Janeway/Mulgrew fans in this forum.
While the ending might leave us hanging, why not just enjoy it for what Mulgrew brings too it. Enjoy it for Alice Krige. I don't find the whole two hours a wasre just due to the last 5 mins. Know what I mean?

Well, I know I'm still going to get teary-eyed when Janeway whispers "we did it" at the end I always have! That's a scene I like very much.

I guess I could just watch for the wonderous Alice Krige and double Janeway... am I allowed to fast-forward the C/7 scenes at least? Or do I have to be legit and watch 'em all? I could probably do it if I had a beer or two.

Take 3 shots of vodka and watch the whole thing, dammit!!!

 

[Akiraprise]

Fortunately C/7 is a minor part of the episode. I think it was basically thrown in there to give Beltran and Ryan something to do as the rest of the show was pretty Janeway centric.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I guess I never saw VOY that way. I enjoyed the show, loved the characters, and was sorely disappointed by Endgame because we didn't see enough resolution. Many people who liked VOY did not like Endgame.

Understood but I also think that's why Akiraprise is asking some to re-watch it. Now that you know what to expect as an ending, will re-watching it change your perspective. While I can't speak for everyone, it did for me.

There are ALLOT of Janeway/Mulgrew fans in this forum.
While the ending might leave us hanging, why not just enjoy it for what Mulgrew brings too it. Enjoy it for Alice Krige. I don't find the whole two hours a wasre just due to the last 5 mins. Know what I mean?

Well, I know I'm still going to get teary-eyed when Janeway whispers "we did it" at the end I always have! That's a scene I like very much.

I guess I could just watch for the wonderous Alice Krige and double Janeway... am I allowed to fast-forward the C/7 scenes at least? Or do I have to be legit and watch 'em all? I could probably do it if I had a beer or two.

Are you ALLOWED to fast forward??????

Darn it, froot, to my way of thinking its an absolute REQUIREMENT!

The beer should still be consumed, because you need something to shore up your courage in the goodbye scene between the Admiral and Tuvok.

(And for the C/7 disbelievers... there's always my fan fic when you are done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQvkoo66vYI )

 

[Guy Gardener]

How fast can you read?

Fast forward with the subtitles on.

We figured this out the first and only time we ever tried to watch Very bad things.

 

[kimc]

Give in, give in to the endgame.

Here's some homework for some folks. If you haven't seen Endgame since it first aired, or if it's been many years since you last watched it, and you remember loathing it why not watch it again? Maybe the passage of time has lessened your disgust. Maybe it's just as terrible as you remembered. Come back to this thread and let us know.

I've often thought of re-watching - even creating a special version with the C/7 scenes cut out to see if it got any better but always found something else to do with my time.

Perhaps we can schedule a live re-watch thread for folks like me who haven't watched it in eons. I'm not sure how else I would get though it to be honest.

Would there be any interest in something like that? Naturally, the C/7 scenes would be drink refreshing time.

 

[Galekarens]

LOL, when I taped Endgame as it first aired, I (having been forewarned thanks to the internet) hit Stop at the C/7 scenes (tho am not sure about the last 5 minutes), so such "tragedy" would not be in any future watching. Well, I misplaced the tape, thought maybe I had disposed of it, but during a massive cleaning binge of my apt. I found it in the closet w/ a bag of other tapes. Of course, I have the DVD's now, so don't need it, but this J/Cer still likes it that the part of Endgame I most disliked (besides the abrupt ending) is not on my personal copy, ha.

 

[froot]

LOL, when I taped Endgame as it first aired, I (having been forewarned thanks to the internet) hit Stop at the C/7 scenes (tho am not sure about the last 5 minutes), so such "tragedy" would not be in any future watching. Well, I misplaced the tape, thought maybe I had disposed of it, but during a massive cleaning binge of my apt. I found it in the closet w/ a bag of other tapes. Of course, I have the DVD's now, so don't need it, but this J/Cer still likes it that the part of Endgame I most disliked (besides the abrupt ending) is not on my personal copy, ha.

You did better than me - I knew about C/7 in advance due to the script leaking, but I was too lazy to pause the tape except on commercials! I love that you did your own edit, hah!

Kimc, I'd be interested in a live re-watch thread; I could use some moral support Although I'm in Minneapolis too! Maybe we wouldn't need a thread!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Talk about taking denial to all new lengths.

Marvellous.

 

[kimc]

Kimc, I'd be interested in a live re-watch thread; I could use some moral support Although I'm in Minneapolis too! Maybe we wouldn't need a thread!

Wow, I didn't realize that. The heck with the thread, let's just drink lots of wine and get through it!

Talk about taking denial to all new lengths.

Hey, whatever gets us through that drek!

 

[Gaith]

I once considered doing a fan edit of Endgame that would be entirely from the "present-day" perspective, with the idea of adding a crawl at some point explaining that future Janeway came from an awful, Borged-out future like the one glimpsed in TNG's "Parallels"... but eventually realized that the existing footage just wouldn't justify it.

Now, that could have been an ending... Janeway shredding the TPD for the survival of the galaxy itself.... and it wouldn't have cost any more to make! But the writers insisted on the worst possible ideas...

 

[The Trekster]

So did you watch it?

 

[Gaith]

I saw it when it first aired, yeah. Alas.