Okay, get ready to throw Tomatoes but I liked "Endgame".

[jmc247]

I probably would have liked Endgame OK if the C/7 silliness hadn't essentially poisoned the whole thing, and also the abruptness of the ending where we didn't see them really getting to Earth. I was saying to myself at the very end, is that it??

I feel the same about that. C/7 poisoned the episode from the very get go, though to me it wasn't just silly as it damaged badly in my mind the three most important relationships on the show J/7, J/C, and D/7. These relationships were central to the characters and alot of the series and it poisoned the relationships so I wasn't able to go back and watch old episodes and feel the same way about them. There is a reason the writers of the book series threw it overboard as quickly as possible.

I also had a massive problem with Janway altering the timeline drastically to save just a few crew members. I could understand Timeless as Kim's mistake killed everyone aboard Voyager and there would be a huge amount of survivors guilt. If one had a chance to send a message back thru time to save everyone you know and love most people I suspect would do it.

It doesn't change the wrongness of screwing with the timeline, but at least it was an extreme enough case you could somewhat feel sympathy for why he was doing it. I felt no sympathy for Janway putting the entire timeline in moral danager only to try to save a few members of the crew when the vast majority had gotten home safe.

 

[kimc]

I feel the same about that. C/7 poisoned the episode from the very get go, though to me it wasn't just silly as it damaged badly in my mind the three most important relationships on the show J/7, J/C, and D/7. These relationships were central to the characters and alot of the series and it poisoned the relationships so I wasn't able to go back and watch old episodes and feel the same way about them. There is a reason the writers of the book series threw it overboard as quickly as possible.

Yes.

I also had a massive problem with Janway altering the timeline drastically to save just a few crew members. I could understand Timeless as Kim's mistake killed everyone aboard Voyager and there would be a huge amount of survivors guilt. If one had a chance to send a message back thru time to save everyone you know and love most people I suspect would do it.

Yes.

It doesn't change the wrongness of screwing with the timeline, but at least it was an extreme enough case you could somewhat feel sympathy for why he was doing it. I felt no sympathy for Janway putting the entire timeline in moral danager only to try to save a few members of the crew when the vast majority had gotten home safe.

And yes!

Add to that the borg had already been overused in the series, imo. It would have been nice to see something new. Perhaps they meet an alien race that needs help and return gives them more advanced technology or perhaps when battling the Hirogen they come across a wormhole or perhaps something else...

 

[exodus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zd-4aeIUI4

 

[Deckerd]

I liked C/7.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Who couldn't they have paired Seven off with?

She's universally pairable.

It's sort of waste to not have a women for Chuckles who is Chuckerspecific.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

It's a good episode, especially by the standards of Trek finales. Cool stuff.

I find the chaotic Klingons and Klingon/Fed relations in every altFuture more interesting than the TNG/DS9/Voy present day. I've never been convinced they make more interesting allies than enemies.

C/7 was a desperate effort to give Seven a happy ending - her family, the only home she had, disappears with the return home. They had to give her something that she'd still have in the Alpha Quadrant. Sure, it was rushed, and C/J had a lot of great subtext... but it isn't hard to see what they were trying to do.

 

[exodus]

It's a good episode, especially by the standards of Trek finales. Cool stuff.

I find the chaotic Klingons and Klingon/Fed relations in every altFuture more interesting than the TNG/DS9/Voy present day. I've never been convinced they make more interesting allies than enemies.

C/7 was a desperate effort to give Seven a happy ending - her family, the only home she had, disappears with the return home. They had to give her something that she'd still have in the Alpha Quadrant. Sure, it was rushed, and C/J had a lot of great subtext... but it isn't hard to see what they were trying to do.

I think it was more for Chakotay than Seven, honestly.

Seven still was going to have Janeway as her mother figure and she discovered she still had an Aunt waiting for her on Earth. Everybody Chakotay knew back in the Alpha Q. was dead. He was the only main character from the AQ coming home to nothing.

 

[AuntKate]

It's a good episode, especially by the standards of Trek finales. Cool stuff.

I find the chaotic Klingons and Klingon/Fed relations in every altFuture more interesting than the TNG/DS9/Voy present day. I've never been convinced they make more interesting allies than enemies.

C/7 was a desperate effort to give Seven a happy ending - her family, the only home she had, disappears with the return home. They had to give her something that she'd still have in the Alpha Quadrant. Sure, it was rushed, and C/J had a lot of great subtext... but it isn't hard to see what they were trying to do.

I think it was more for Chakotay than Seven, honestly.

Seven still was going to have Janeway as her mother figure and she discovered she still had an Aunt waiting for her on Earth. Everybody Chakotay knew back in the Alpha Q. was dead. He was the only main character from the AQ coming home to nothing.

Not true. His sister is alive, and he has a cousin in Ohio. Those are the ones he mentioned. I'm guessing there might have been more cousins around, too.

Also, I don't think they were "desperate" to give Seven a happy ending. In fact, the original finale was supposed to have Seven sacrificing herself for the crew because she knew from "Human Error" that she would never manage to be fully human. When that plot was scrapped, they decided to throw in some last minute romance, just so they could tease the audience in their ads about a "new romance." Many expected it to be J/C, which they had been dancing around for seven years. Instead, we got a VERY lame C/7 that is almost impossible to watch.

I agree that C/7 ruined those two characters as we knew them. Such a shame.

 

[Galekarens]

Mostly because of the C/7 in Endgame, I didn't re-watch Voyager again until last (2009) summer, then I had a marathon 7 seasons in about one month time. Was pleasantly surprised at how entertained I was by (most of) the episodes, but knowing about what TPTB did (BIG middle finger) to J/C fans at the end unfortunately colored much of what I re-saw (altho the idea that 7 dumped C in the post-finale books comforted me a bit). Still, whenever 7 got near C (ha) I would kind of cringe, but any little J&C interaction did cheer me. Oh well, I don't have to take Endgame as gospel, it's only one tv show episode, lol!

 

[AuntKate]

Mostly because of the C/7 in Endgame, I didn't re-watch Voyager again until last (2009) summer, then I had a marathon 7 seasons in about one month time. Was pleasantly surprised at how entertained I was by (most of) the episodes, but knowing about what TPTB did (BIG middle finger) to J/C fans at the end unfortunately colored much of what I re-saw (altho the idea that 7 dumped C in the post-finale books comforted me a bit). Still, whenever 7 got near C (ha) I would kind of cringe, but any little J&C interaction did cheer me. Oh well, I don't have to take Endgame as gospel, it's only one tv show episode, lol!

It is significant that the Endgame episode works as well, or better, without the C/7 included. I just fast forward right through it! Makes for a much better experience.

 

[Starbreaker]

I liked the episode too. It was certainly better than most of the stuff we got in Season 7. (Renaissance Man, Workforce, Human Error, Natural Law, etc.)

 

[Galekarens]

Lol, Human Error doesn't even exist as far as I'm concerned, except maybe that B'Elanna's baby shower happened, I think.

 

[exodus]

It's a good episode, especially by the standards of Trek finales. Cool stuff.

I find the chaotic Klingons and Klingon/Fed relations in every altFuture more interesting than the TNG/DS9/Voy present day. I've never been convinced they make more interesting allies than enemies.

C/7 was a desperate effort to give Seven a happy ending - her family, the only home she had, disappears with the return home. They had to give her something that she'd still have in the Alpha Quadrant. Sure, it was rushed, and C/J had a lot of great subtext... but it isn't hard to see what they were trying to do.

I think it was more for Chakotay than Seven, honestly.

Seven still was going to have Janeway as her mother figure and she discovered she still had an Aunt waiting for her on Earth. Everybody Chakotay knew back in the Alpha Q. was dead. He was the only main character from the AQ coming home to nothing.

Not true. His sister is alive, and he has a cousin in Ohio. Those are the ones he mentioned. I'm guessing there might have been more cousins around, too.

Also, I don't think they were "desperate" to give Seven a happy ending. In fact, the original finale was supposed to have Seven sacrificing herself for the crew because she knew from "Human Error" that she would never manage to be fully human. When that plot was scrapped, they decided to throw in some last minute romance, just so they could tease the audience in their ads about a "new romance." Many expected it to be J/C, which they had been dancing around for seven years. Instead, we got a VERY lame C/7 that is almost impossible to watch.

I agree that C/7 ruined those two characters as we knew them. Such a shame.

While I can't speak for everybody, I think this only applies to die hard J/Cer's. If you didn't seeing J/C as a couple and didn't expect it in the finale, then C/7 isn't a tramatic unwatchable part of the episode. I also don't see how two characters dating ruins 5 to 7 years of each ones prior history. Dating didn't change their personality or history. I'm sorry but if Star Wars fans can get over Leia kissing Luke, then I think Trek fans need to get over C/7 as well.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I was never a J/Cer, and I still thought C/7 ruined a great deal of the finale for me. I felt cheated. I didn't expect J/7, either. I want to be perfectly clear on that point. I could easily accept the senior staff (sans Torres and Paris) being single until their return.

But, the C/7 thing? It was just kind of thrown in at what felt like the very last possible moment. *shakes head no* Nope, didn't like that at all.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I'm sorry but if Star Wars fans can get over Leia kissing Luke, then I think Trek fans need to get over C/7 as well.
__________________

When they re-released Star Wars in the theater in the 90s (?) the whole audience went "eeeeuuuuwwwwwweeeee" when that scene came up.

After all... just because THEY didn't KNOW they were siblings, didn't make that "right".

 

[Unicron]

I also had a massive problem with Janway altering the timeline drastically to save just a few crew members. I could understand Timeless as Kim's mistake killed everyone aboard Voyager and there would be a huge amount of survivors guilt. If one had a chance to send a message back thru time to save everyone you know and love most people I suspect would do it.

It doesn't change the wrongness of screwing with the timeline, but at least it was an extreme enough case you could somewhat feel sympathy for why he was doing it. I felt no sympathy for Janway putting the entire timeline in moral danager only to try to save a few members of the crew when the vast majority had gotten home safe.

I suppose I'm sort of in the opposite camp, at least to a degree, in that I think it's a mistake to treat time as a purely linear concept. That's usually how it seems to our perception, but history isn't a set of events that all fall into a convenient order. It's a set of different events that all come together into a big conflux, and there's a potentially infinite number of outcomes for any given circumstances. The notion of temporal police or the "temporal prime directive" doesn't make much sense to me as VOY portrayed it.

That view doesn't necessarily justify Admiral Janeway's actions, but it's not as if she was randomly screwing with history without thinking of the consequences, or that she was being purely selfish. It took her a long time to get home and she lost a significant number of her crew in the process, and she ultimately decided to help her younger self avoid that fate. I don't see a problem with that personally, unless you could tie such actions into a greater cosmic scale. Otherwise one could argue there's never any valid reasons to change history for the better, just because it's history. In that respect, the future Janeway is no different than a Picard who decided to prevent the massacre of Wolf 359 or a Sisko who wanted the Romulans to join the war against the Dominion at an earlier date, avoiding the dangerous actions that were required to get their help in "In The Pale Moonlight."

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's even worse when you hear her say in Jedi: "I know, I guess I've always known."

 

[AuntKate]

Lol, Human Error doesn't even exist as far as I'm concerned, except maybe that B'Elanna's baby shower happened, I think.

I used to feel the same way, but then I forced myself to watch it again. Beltran actually does a good job of being two different men here. The man in the holodeck is just too good to be true--the perfect, patient, understanding, forgiving fanfic kind of leading man. However, the first officer back in the real world is definitely thinking about spacing Seven again because she is a true pain in the backside.

Also, the ending (if they had stuck with it) was truly poignant. Seven realizes that she can only come back so far to the humanity she lost, and I found myself feeling sorry for her. I wish they had left her character like that instead of turning her into the innocent ingenue in Endgame.

 

[exodus]

I'm sorry but if Star Wars fans can get over Leia kissing Luke, then I think Trek fans need to get over C/7 as well.
__________________

When they re-released Star Wars in the theater in the 90s (?) the whole audience went "eeeeuuuuwwwwwweeeee" when that scene came up.

After all... just because THEY didn't KNOW they were siblings, didn't make that "right".

True...but I don't think it ruins all the other aspects we know of them either.

I agree that C/7 was thrown together at the last minute and poorly executed but IMO when I hear it ruined the characters is just overly dramatic. There just isn't anyway to make Chakotay any worse than what we saw in "The Fight".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Would there have been an Endgame without C7?

Janeway didn't come back in time to save her friend, she came back to save her friend's wife... FOR HER FRIEND.

Nothing else mattered.