Okay, get ready to throw Tomatoes but I liked "Endgame".

[AuntKate]

The Holo-Chakotay in Human Error looked and sounded like Chakotay but was only loosely based on his personality. This is especially clear when you compare in his attitude toward Seven in the holodeck as opposed to real life. He was very much a 'fanfic' Chakotay in her program--ultra kind and accommodating. We saw in TNG's Holo Pursuits that holo-characters can be programmed to behave and speak in ways that are not normal for the real person. The fact that the Holo-Chakotay would go for Seven is reflective of the program not the person. Although he does "go for" her in Endgame, that was not the intent when Human Error was written. I think the C/7 stuff was a late addition to the finale. Ugh.

 

[jimoinj]

My 2 cents...I agree with earlier posters that the problem with this show is it goes against the whole spirit of what went before. The whole reason the crew remained trapped in the Delta Quadrant was because Janeway put the lives of the Ocampa above their convenience, and destroyed the caretaker's array. Even other shows in season 7 stressed the importance of morality.

The way they came home made the whole previous 7 years in the Delta Quadrant meaningless, since clearly Admiral Janeway would have made a different decision if given the chance again. All she had learnt from their hardships were that they should be avoided outright. Again, the message here is selfishness and taking the quick and easy way, not putting in the hard yards. That was my biggest problem with the episode. The second worst thing was the lack of closure at the end.

It has been mentioned that the ending of DS9 was contrived and convenient. How about B'lanna giving birth right at the moment they arrive home? Could you get even a little more contrived than that??

 

[JanewayRulz!]

My 2 cents...I agree with earlier posters that the problem with this show is it goes against the whole spirit of what went before. The whole reason the crew remained trapped in the Delta Quadrant was because Janeway put the lives of the Ocampa above their convenience, and destroyed the caretaker's array. Even other shows in season 7 stressed the importance of morality.

The way they came home made the whole previous 7 years in the Delta Quadrant meaningless, since clearly Admiral Janeway would have made a different decision if given the chance again. All she had learnt from their hardships were that they should be avoided outright. Again, the message here is selfishness and taking the quick and easy way, not putting in the hard yards. That was my biggest problem with the episode. The second worst thing was the lack of closure at the end.

It has been mentioned that the ending of DS9 was contrived and convenient. How about B'lanna giving birth right at the moment they arrive home? Could you get even a little more contrived than that??

I see where you are coming from, obviously I have a different viewpoint which can be explained by this exchange between the 2 Janeways.

JANEWAY: I want to know why you didn't tell me about this.
ADMIRAL: Because I remember how stubborn and self-righteous I used to be. I figured you might try to do something stupid.
JANEWAY: We have an opportunity to deal a crippling blow to the Borg. It could save millions of lives.
ADMIRAL: I didn't spend the last ten years looking for a way to get this crew home earlier so you could throw it all away on some intergalactic goodwill mission.
JANEWAY: Maybe we should go back to Sickbay.
ADMIRAL: Why, so you can have me sedated?
JANEWAY: So I can have the Doctor reconfirm your identity. I refuse to believe I'll ever become as cynical as you.

The Admiral was beaten down after spending 23 years in the DQ and the 10 years of survivor's guilt in the AQ. She went back in time to "save" Voyager and those 22 people who will die, but what happened was SHE was saved by the woman that many of us have come to love.


[Mess hall]

ADMIRAL: Coffee, black.
JANEWAY: I thought you gave it up.
ADMIRAL: I've decided to revive a few of my old habits.
JANEWAY: Oh? What else besides the coffee?
ADMIRAL: Oh well, I used to be much more idealistic. I took a lot of risks. I'd been so determined to get this crew home for so many years that I think I forgot how much they loved being together, and how loyal they were to you. It's taken me a few days to realize it. This is your ship, your crew, not mine. I was wrong to lie to you, To think I could talk you out of something you'd set your mind to.
JANEWAY: You were only trying to do what you thought was right for all of us.
ADMIRAL: Well you've changed my mind about that, and I'd like to help you carry out your mission. Maybe together we can increase our odds.
JANEWAY: Maybe we can do more than that. There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it too.
ADMIRAL: We can't destroy the hub and get Voyager home.
JANEWAY: Are you absolutely sure about that?
ADMIRAL: There might be a way. I considered it once, but it seemed too risky.
JANEWAY: That was before you decided to revive your old habits.
ADMIRAL: I don't know why I ever gave this up. (HINT: She's NOT talking about coffee!)

[Admiral Janeway's shuttle]
ADMIRAL: It's about time. I'm not getting any younger, you know.
JANEWAY: You're sure you want to do this?
ADMIRAL: No, but Voyager isn't big enough for both of us.
JANEWAY: (injects her) Good luck, Admiral.
ADMIRAL: You, too. Captain, I'm glad I got to know you again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yElLgQjyIIs

 

[exodus]

My 2 cents...I agree with earlier posters that the problem with this show is it goes against the whole spirit of what went before. The whole reason the crew remained trapped in the Delta Quadrant was because Janeway put the lives of the Ocampa above their convenience, and destroyed the caretaker's array. Even other shows in season 7 stressed the importance of morality.

The way they came home made the whole previous 7 years in the Delta Quadrant meaningless, since clearly Admiral Janeway would have made a different decision if given the chance again. All she had learnt from their hardships were that they should be avoided outright. Again, the message here is selfishness and taking the quick and easy way, not putting in the hard yards. That was my biggest problem with the episode. The second worst thing was the lack of closure at the end.

It has been mentioned that the ending of DS9 was contrived and convenient. How about B'lanna giving birth right at the moment they arrive home? Could you get even a little more contrived than that??

I see where you are coming from, obviously I have a different viewpoint which can be explained by this exchange between the 2 Janeways.

JANEWAY: I want to know why you didn't tell me about this.
ADMIRAL: Because I remember how stubborn and self-righteous I used to be. I figured you might try to do something stupid.
JANEWAY: We have an opportunity to deal a crippling blow to the Borg. It could save millions of lives.
ADMIRAL: I didn't spend the last ten years looking for a way to get this crew home earlier so you could throw it all away on some intergalactic goodwill mission.
JANEWAY: Maybe we should go back to Sickbay.
ADMIRAL: Why, so you can have me sedated?
JANEWAY: So I can have the Doctor reconfirm your identity. I refuse to believe I'll ever become as cynical as you.

The Admiral was beaten down after spending 23 years in the DQ and the 10 years of survivor's guilt in the AQ. She went back in time to "save" Voyager and those 22 people who will die, but what happened was SHE was saved by the woman that many of us have come to love.


[Mess hall]

ADMIRAL: Coffee, black.
JANEWAY: I thought you gave it up.
ADMIRAL: I've decided to revive a few of my old habits.
JANEWAY: Oh? What else besides the coffee?
ADMIRAL: Oh well, I used to be much more idealistic. I took a lot of risks. I'd been so determined to get this crew home for so many years that I think I forgot how much they loved being together, and how loyal they were to you. It's taken me a few days to realize it. This is your ship, your crew, not mine. I was wrong to lie to you, To think I could talk you out of something you'd set your mind to.
JANEWAY: You were only trying to do what you thought was right for all of us.
ADMIRAL: Well you've changed my mind about that, and I'd like to help you carry out your mission. Maybe together we can increase our odds.
JANEWAY: Maybe we can do more than that. There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it too.
ADMIRAL: We can't destroy the hub and get Voyager home.
JANEWAY: Are you absolutely sure about that?
ADMIRAL: There might be a way. I considered it once, but it seemed too risky.
JANEWAY: That was before you decided to revive your old habits.
ADMIRAL: I don't know why I ever gave this up. (HINT: She's NOT talking about coffee!)

[Admiral Janeway's shuttle]
ADMIRAL: It's about time. I'm not getting any younger, you know.
JANEWAY: You're sure you want to do this?
ADMIRAL: No, but Voyager isn't big enough for both of us.
JANEWAY: (injects her) Good luck, Admiral.
ADMIRAL: You, too. Captain, I'm glad I got to know you again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yElLgQjyIIs

Exactly!

The point was the DQ had turned Adm. Janeway into Capt. Ransom.
That's why IMO like Picard & Sisko, Janeway's test though the entire series was her morals.
Picard test was too prove to Q that the human race was worthy.
Sisko's test was to prove he was in fact the Emissary.
Janeway's was to show she could come home the same upstanding person she was when the journey started.

 

[froot]

The point was the DQ had turned Adm. Janeway into Capt. Ransom.
That's why IMO like Picard & Sisko, Janeway's test though the entire series was her morals.
Picard test was too prove to Q that the human race was worthy.
Sisko's test was to prove he was in fact the Emissary.
Janeway's was to show she could come home the same upstanding person she was when the journey started.

That's an interesting take on it, and, considering the first episode, an accurate one, I think.

Ransom isn't a good comparison, though. I would say she was more like Annorax. Ransom was straight-up evil, and, while some might disagree with me () I do not think Admiral Janeway was evil. She was bitter and single-minded, but not evil.

We saw in Timeless that her own people were willing to pull the same stunt. On the one hand, I think these episodes prove the total loyalty these guys had for each other, but, on the other, it does really undo what they were trying to get across in Caretaker.

They did a great thing by giving the Borg a new hole on their way back to the AQ, but time shouldn't have changed to do it, IMO. A stronger, more appropriate ending would have been if Janeway (or Seven, as was originally going to be the case) was faced with a Caretaker-esque decision and had to make a sacrifice so they could "have their cake and eat it too" without changing time.

 

[exodus]

The point was the DQ had turned Adm. Janeway into Capt. Ransom.
That's why IMO like Picard & Sisko, Janeway's test though the entire series was her morals.
Picard test was too prove to Q that the human race was worthy.
Sisko's test was to prove he was in fact the Emissary.
Janeway's was to show she could come home the same upstanding person she was when the journey started.

That's an interesting take on it, and, considering the first episode, an accurate one, I think.

Ransom isn't a good comparison, though. I would say she was more like Annorax. Ransom was straight-up evil, and, while some might disagree with me () I do not think Admiral Janeway was evil. She was bitter and single-minded, but not evil.

We saw in Timeless that her own people were willing to pull the same stunt. On the one hand, I think these episodes prove the total loyalty these guys had for each other, but, on the other, it does really undo what they were trying to get across in Caretaker.

They did a great thing by giving the Borg a new hole on their way back to the AQ, but time shouldn't have changed to do it, IMO. A stronger, more appropriate ending would have been if Janeway (or Seven, as was originally going to be the case) was faced with a Caretaker-esque decision and had to make a sacrifice so they could "have their cake and eat it too" without changing time.

I don't see Ransom as evil.
Ransom was a man in a difficult situation who like Janeway couldn't take the lost of so many of her crew. So he choose a desperate measure to insure the trip home.
We saw in "Equinox" that Janeway was just one stress push away from being him.
He was an example of that saying: "Good intentions can pave the road to Hell".
His intentions were good, his choices were bad.
Ransom still felt guilt over what he was doing, so guilty that he lied about it.
Annorax is evil, because he knew he was doing wrong and didn't care because only he himself mattered. He wasn't doing what he was doing for anyone else but himself.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I don't see Ransom as evil.
Ransom was a man in a difficult situation who like Janeway couldn't take the lost of so many of her crew. So he choose a desperate measure to insure the trip home.
We saw in "Equinox" that Janeway was just one stress push away from being him.
He was an example of that saying: "Good intentions can pave the road to Hell".
His intentions were good, his choices were bad.
Ransom still felt guilt over what he was doing, so guilty that he lied about it.
Annorax is evil, because he knew he was doing wrong and didn't care because only he himself mattered. He wasn't doing what he was doing for anyone else but himself.

I have to agree with froot's interpretation of Ransom. I think he became evil, in that he not only killed to get home, he was willing to kill the very people that rescued him and his crew from the aliens rightfully attacking him.

The Admiral just "reset" time, to allow it to replay. Presumably everyone would have another chance at life.

 

[Guy Gardener]

C/7 was foreshadowed in Human Error, where it was perfectly clear that Chakotary wasn't just a hologram but acted as the real Chakotay. That doesn't make even as much sense as time travel with limited paradoxes. But I don't recall anyone complaining about Human Error for that reason. Therefore I don't take seriously any complaints about C/7.

Oh, there were many complaints about "Human Error" as any search of this forum would reveal. One of them is that Chakotay was NOT acting like the real Chakotay.

He was on a date.

"date" anyone is not the same as "regular" anyone and doubly so on the first date... Do you think that it was planned and that he took the whole "running out of gas" bit a bridge too far?

(Or was she driving? The shuttle crashed, so just assumed he was the pilot.)

That being said. Jeri Ryan has spoken out/explained repeatedly that C/7 was a huge surprise to her when she received the last script. A huge surprise. If it was truly foreshadowing they would have had the decency to say "Look at his ass in this scene and lick your lips Jeri, lets give the audience something to think about."

 

[exodus]

I don't see Ransom as evil.
Ransom was a man in a difficult situation who like Janeway couldn't take the lost of so many of her crew. So he choose a desperate measure to insure the trip home.
We saw in "Equinox" that Janeway was just one stress push away from being him.
He was an example of that saying: "Good intentions can pave the road to Hell".
His intentions were good, his choices were bad.
Ransom still felt guilt over what he was doing, so guilty that he lied about it.
Annorax is evil, because he knew he was doing wrong and didn't care because only he himself mattered. He wasn't doing what he was doing for anyone else but himself.

I have to agree with froot's interpretation of Ransom. I think he became evil, in that he not only killed to get home, he was willing to kill the very people that rescued him and his crew from the aliens rightfully attacking him.

...but I see it as "Why?"
Why did he attack Voyager?
Wasn't it due to guilt?
He had gotten caught and too avoid punishment for his secret. Was because he was evil or just ashamed?

 

[Guy Gardener]

With shield technology as it stands Ransom was in no danger of killing any one on Voyager when he started running, and without enhanced warpdrive he'd get home thirty years before Janeway IF she made it home before he and his crew had to answer any difficult questions about being dickheads.

Besides Ransom was hunting Space beasties for fuel, so maybe if you weren't hunting them for fuel, it could have been piss easy to run away never bother with being eaten by space beasties ever again?

The only reason Voyager was in any trouble is because Janeway went all Ahab.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I don't see Ransom as evil.
Ransom was a man in a difficult situation who like Janeway couldn't take the lost of so many of her crew. So he choose a desperate measure to insure the trip home.
We saw in "Equinox" that Janeway was just one stress push away from being him.
He was an example of that saying: "Good intentions can pave the road to Hell".
His intentions were good, his choices were bad.
Ransom still felt guilt over what he was doing, so guilty that he lied about it.
Annorax is evil, because he knew he was doing wrong and didn't care because only he himself mattered. He wasn't doing what he was doing for anyone else but himself.

I have to agree with froot's interpretation of Ransom. I think he became evil, in that he not only killed to get home, he was willing to kill the very people that rescued him and his crew from the aliens rightfully attacking him.

...but I see it as "Why?"
Why did he attack Voyager?
Wasn't it due to guilt?
He had gotten caught and too avoid punishment for his secret. Was because he was evil or just ashamed?

He didn't attack Voyager, he defended himself against Voyager's attempt to arrest him.

He planned to leave Voyager and strand our crew in the DQ even before Janeway figured out he was sacrificing the aliens.

 

[froot]

Guy, are you getting Human Error confused with Homestead?

exodus, I'm with you on that Ransom didn't lose his humanity entirely, but, until he realized he was at the end of his rope, he was more upset about being caught red-handed than anything. He wasn't actually sorry, not until the end. And then he oh-so-conveniently got to die heroically while Janeway had to live on with herself.

I guess I'd say Annorax was evil in a way, too. He was more evil because he was deluded, though, and less because of outright malice. He had been at his quest so long he was going batty and thought time was out to get him. I think if Admiral J had been after her personal Kyana Prime for 200 years, she would have been the same way or worse.

I guess the time thing just makes it a little better comparison for me. Janeway crossed the line in Equinox, but she was never close to doing anything like genocide. She was never one stress push away from turning on friendlies, either. She was wrong in that episode, but she was nowhere near the stuff Ransom was pulling - I think she was a long, long way from that point.

Even the old Admiral J wasn't at that point.

 

[exodus]

I have to agree with froot's interpretation of Ransom. I think he became evil, in that he not only killed to get home, he was willing to kill the very people that rescued him and his crew from the aliens rightfully attacking him.

...but I see it as "Why?"
Why did he attack Voyager?
Wasn't it due to guilt?
He had gotten caught and too avoid punishment for his secret. Was because he was evil or just ashamed?

He didn't attack Voyager, he defended himself against Voyager's attempt to arrest him.

He planned to leave Voyager and strand our crew in the DQ even before Janeway figured out he was sacrificing the aliens.

I guess I have to review the ep. again.
However, I still don't regard Ransom as evil any more than Janeway crossing the Swarms boarders after being told not to trespass and blowing them up makes her evil.
I think the fact that they showed him struggling with guilt was their way of trying to show us otherwise. You saw it when he gave his First Officer the command to kill more aliens. You see him hesitate, hang his head as he wrestles with his ethics. He doesn't want too do it but he feels he has no choice. He can't watch his crew starve and die. Too me this shows Ransom still has compassion and if his crew told him not to do it, he would have listened and most likely stopped. He can't deal with what he's doing and uses his Holo-devise as a form of escape. IMO someone who is evil is callous. They don't feel guilt or remorse for what they do. Janeway knows this because she sees the man Ransom was at the end of the second part. It's part of why she honors his last request. Ransom dies seeking forgiveness and accepts death as his punishment.


Annorax didn't feel guilty or any remorse for what he was doing at all.
He gives his orders to his First Officer without hesitation, without remorse. He even becomes angered with Oberist doesn't carry them out fast enough. He doesn't care about those he kills, he doesn't even care about his own crew and the fact they don't wanna do it anymore. He takes what he's doing as uses it like a blanket of comfort. Even at the end of "YOH", Annorax still isn't remorseful. He never sees or comes to terms with what he is doing as wrong. The ep. ends with him never learning any lesson, never seeking forgiveness. He "dies" as misguided as he lived.

Too me due to all that Annorax is evil, not Ransom.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Guy, are you getting Human Error confused with Homestead?

exodus, I'm with you on that Ransom didn't lose his humanity entirely, but, until he realized he was at the end of his rope, he was more upset about being caught red-handed than anything. He wasn't actually sorry, not until the end. And then he oh-so-conveniently got to die heroically while Janeway had to live on with herself.

I guess I'd say Annorax was evil in a way, too. He was more evil because he was deluded, though, and less because of outright malice. He had been at his quest so long he was going batty and thought time was out to get him. I think if Admiral J had been after her personal Kyana Prime for 200 years, she would have been the same way or worse.

I guess the time thing just makes it a little better comparison for me. Janeway crossed the line in Equinox, but she was never close to doing anything like genocide. She was never one stress push away from turning on friendlies, either. She was wrong in that episode, but she was nowhere near the stuff Ransom was pulling - I think she was a long, long way from that point.

Even the old Admiral J wasn't at that point.

Certainly not. I was confusing Natural Law for Human Error.



Genocide is the extermination of a species. Ransom had only killed a few dozen of those bastards if 56 more of them can push him 30 thousand light years. Janeway might have killed as many as Ransom had in the Defense of Voyager because they were idiots fighting like Lemmings.

Ransom was willing to do horrible things to get home.

Anorax was willing to do horrible things to get home.

Admiral Janeway was willing to do horrible things to get home sooner. She didn't get home well enough. Won the game but didn't crack the high score.

For Anorax to be as bad as Admiral Janeway, he would have gotten his wife back and then felt distraught about the wrinkles around her yes and the sag on her boobies so returned to outside of time to get home "sooner" as he can then enjoy firmer melons on his missus.

For Ransom to be as bad as Admiral Janeway, after he got home, if he had gotten home, the lad would have had to have travelled back to Caretaker and shown his younger self how to kill space beasties and convert them into usable fuel... Which would have saved at least half his crew. Of course if Ransom had killed all the space beasties he needed for his youngerself to get home before he travelled back in time, then half of his crew would have been killed by the Krowtonan Guard in the first week and no one would have needed to know he was a bastard until the missions post mortem, and if he got back fast enough, Janeway never would have been lost in space, if he didn't torpedo the shit of caretaker 6 months before Janeway got taken, thus making his mission well more heroic in theory if you don't know every thing we do about how instrumental Voyager had to become to ensure the stability of Earth, the dq, the galaxy, the universe and the omniverse and time.

Admiral Janeway was a bad bad person.

 

[exodus]

Guy, are you getting Human Error confused with Homestead?

exodus, I'm with you on that Ransom didn't lose his humanity entirely, but, until he realized he was at the end of his rope, he was more upset about being caught red-handed than anything.

Yes, because I believe the natural human reaction to being caught commiting a crime is throw someone under the bus and too run. Sisko didn't want to get caught red-handed either, so he erased his daily log of the incident. If questioned, Garak would have been his fall guy.

Janeway was nowhere near what Ransom did because as he said, she wasn't on a ship where nothing worked and had a crew that was starving. Janeway was never in Ransom's shoes, she was on a ship that was designed for similar situations they were in. The Equinox never was. Janeway didn't have a crew suffering from post traumatic stress disorder either.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

...but I see it as "Why?"
Why did he attack Voyager?
Wasn't it due to guilt?
He had gotten caught and too avoid punishment for his secret. Was because he was evil or just ashamed?

He didn't attack Voyager, he defended himself against Voyager's attempt to arrest him.

He planned to leave Voyager and strand our crew in the DQ even before Janeway figured out he was sacrificing the aliens.

I guess I have to review the ep. again.
However, I still don't regard Ransom as evil any more than Janeway crossing the Swarms boarders after being told not to trespass and blowing them up makes her evil.
I think the fact that they showed him struggling with guilt was their way of trying to show us otherwise. You saw it when he gave his First Officer the command to kill more aliens. You see him hesitate, hang his head as he wrestles with his ethics. He doesn't want too do it but he feels he has no choice. He can't watch his crew starve and die. Too me this shows Ransom still has compassion and if his crew told him not to do it, he would have listened and most likely stopped. IMO someone who is evil is callous. They don't feel guilt or remorse for what they do. Janeway knows this because she sees the man Ransom was at the end of the second part. It's part of why she honors his last request. Ransom dies seeking forgiveness.


Annorax didn't feel guilty or any remorse for what he was doing at all.
He gives his orders to his First Officer without hesitation, without remorse. He even becomes angered with Oberist doesn't carry them out fast enough. He doesn't care about those he kills, he doesn't even care about his own crew and the fact they don't wanna do it anymore. Even at the end of "YOH", Annorax still isn't remorseful. He never sees or comes to terms with what he is doing as wrong. The ep. ends with him never learning any lesson, never seeking forgiveness. He "dies" as misguided as he lived.

Too me due to all that Annorax is evil, not Ransom.

Actually, on the Annorax question, I agree with Exodus. Annorax was murdering entire species/civilizations in an attempt to get back to his home colony/wife. He wasn't "resetting" time for everyone, just for those planets he didn't kill yet.

Its true in a parallel universe kind of way, that by resetting time Admiral Janeway could have different people living than the "first time around", just like we see in DS9 when Jadzia Dax lived to an old age in "The Visitor", and yet after Jake rescues his Dad/changes the past, Jadzia ends up murdered by Cardassians.

Still, Jake didn't plan to change time to murder Jadzia, he did it to save his Dad. Jadzia still had choices... turn right or turn left, marry Worf or not, just like Cardassia had choices. Annorax removed choice from everyone he purposefully killed. Annorax wasn't resetting time, he was purposefully manipulating it.

Admiral Janeway reset time. She DID try to purposefully manipulate her younger self into following her into the Transwarp hub, but she was reigned in quickly by a Captain that didn't abrogate her responsibility to Starfleet, the Federation or her ship just because a higher ranking officer came aboard.

imoinj wrote:
My 2 cents...I agree with earlier posters that the problem with this show is it goes against the whole spirit of what went before. The whole reason the crew remained trapped in the Delta Quadrant was because Janeway put the lives of the Ocampa above their convenience, and destroyed the caretaker's array. Even other shows in season 7 stressed the importance of morality.

The way they came home made the whole previous 7 years in the Delta Quadrant meaningless, since clearly Admiral Janeway would have made a different decision if given the chance again. All she had learnt from their hardships were that they should be avoided outright. Again, the message here is selfishness and taking the quick and easy way, not putting in the hard yards.

jimoing thought that "Endgame" meant that Janeway thought the easy way out was the only way out, and that this diluted the message of the show.

I disagree.

CAPTAIN Janeway, the woman WE'VE watched for the "last 7 years" obviously didn't feel that way. Even after being told that Seven and 21 others would die, after being told that Tuvok would descend into senility in short order... she still refused to simply follow that Admiral into the hub to "get her people home" today. She insisted on getting the approval of her senior staff first... but she was ready to have Voyager go out with "phaser banks blazing" rather than tuck her tail between her legs and run home to Mama.

Convience?

What's that?

Speaking of Ransom, the guy who does whatever it takes to keep his crew from starving. This exchange occurs before Tuvok has even reported to janeway that the research lab on the Equinox was intentionally contaminated. Before she's had a chance to order the EMH to enter it and discover what they're hiding down there.


[Equinox Bridge]
BURKE: Once we take their field generator we'll part company.
GILMORE: What happens to Voyager?
BURKE: They have weapons, shields, a full crew. They'll survive.
LESSING: Maybe we should abandon ship. Try to forget everything that's happened here.
RANSOM: A shower and a hot meal. I guess that's all it takes for some of us to forget what's at stake here. We're going home, We can't let Voyager stop us now, not when we're this close. Now we're proceeding as planned. Are there any other objections? I need each and every one of you to give me your very best, as you always have. Max.
BURKE: This won't be easy. The generator is located on deck eleven, next to the warp plasma manifold. We can't get a clean lock without boosting the signal. Marla, I need you to set aside your claustrophobia and crawl through the access port, set up the transport enhancers.
GILMORE: Understood.
BURKE: We'll have to take the internal sensors in that section offline. Noah, you're elected.
LESSING: You can count on me, sir.
BURKE: I'll disengage the power couplings from Engineering.
RANSOM: You'll all have time for one last shower. Make the most of it.

Ransom had the opportunity to join forces with Janeway's ship. To become a "ragtag fleet", in search of a home called Earth. (Purposeful BSG allusion). He no longer had to fear being the smallest dog in a fight, he no longer had to murder to get his crew home.

He DID, however, have to murder to get his crew home this year. He did have to DELETE the Voyager EMH's ethical subroutines in order for him to vivasect Seven's Brain in an attempt to get information out of her.

[Equinox Sickbay]

SEVEN: You are obviously delusional. (To the EMH) Allow me to repair your program.
EMH: Now why would I want you to do that. You of all people should understand being unfettered by ethical subroutines has made me far more efficient.
RANSOM: Status?
EMH: I'm going to extract her cortical array. It contains an index of her memory engrams, but once I've removed it her higher brain functions, language, cognitive skills will be severely damaged.
RANSOM: Tell me the codes.
SEVEN: No.
RANSOM: Janeway was right about one thing. You are unique. It would be a shame to lose you.
SEVEN: Your compassion is irrelevant.
RANSOM: You think this is easy for me? The sight of you on that table, but you're leaving me no choice!
SEVEN: No choice. You say that frequently. You destroy life-forms to attain your goals, then claim that they left you no choice. Does that logic comfort you?
RANSOM: The codes.
SEVEN: You'll have to destroy me to obtain them.


After EVERYONE Janeway's already lost in 5 full years, after stranding herself and her crew IN the DQ to protect strangers, after having her crew refuse to leave Voyager to settle on an L class planet with 200,000 other humans, after having her crew REFUSE to abandon her in a "Void" contaminated by irradiated Malon garbage so that Voyager could safely escape, I'm not surprised that Janeway went all "Ahab/Picard" in an attempt to stop him.

Did I like it?

Not really, but even a paragon of virtue can stumble once in a while.

Right, Jean luc?

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Guy, are you getting Human Error confused with Homestead?

exodus, I'm with you on that Ransom didn't lose his humanity entirely, but, until he realized he was at the end of his rope, he was more upset about being caught red-handed than anything.

Yes, because I believe the natural human reaction to being caught commiting a crime is throw someone under the bus and too run. Sisko didn't want to get caught red-handed either, so he erased his daily log of the incident. If questioned, Garak would have been his fall guy.

Janeway was nowhere near what Ransom did because as he said, she wasn't on a ship where nothing worked and had a crew that was starving. Janeway was never in Ransom's shoes, she was on a ship that was designed for similar situations they were in. The Equinox never was. Janeway didn't have a crew suffering from post traumatic stress disorder either.

Well, that's not exactly true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZrPPP4R8Nc




Day 73 of 257

[Mess Hall]

JANEWAY: Each of you has done their best, but determination alone isn't going to hold this ship together. It's time we faced reality. We've lost nine decks, more than half the ship has been destroyed. Life support is nearly gone. Voyager can no longer sustain it's crew. I promised myself that I would never give this order, that I would never break up this family, but asking you to stay would be asking you to die. You will proceed to the escape pods and evacuate this vessel. Set your course for the alpha quadrant. Along the way, try to find allies, secure faster ships if you can, anything to get home. The senior staff and I will remain on board as long as possible. We will try somehow to rescue Tom and Chakotay. The escape pods are equipped with subspace beacons. That's how we'll keep track of you. When we find each other again, and we will, we will find each other again, I expect all of you to be in one piece with some interesting stories to tell. Good luck.


Or, if you want a reference to season 2...

JANEWAY 1: We've been studying that theory. And my B'Elanna tells me that sending any more than five to ten people through the rift would radically alter the atomic balance of the two Voyagers. We'd both be destroyed. Captain, I think you should return to your ship and run a metallurgical analysis. Find out the precise phase modulation of your hull. I'll do the same here. Maybe we can find a way to realign the phase displacement.
JANEWAY 2: You're going to self-destruct your ship.
JANEWAY 1: What makes you say that?
JANEWAY 2: Because that's what I would do if your Voyager were intact, and my Voyager were crippled, my crew wounded or dead. I'd sacrifice my ship so that yours could survive.

And we know that wasn't just bragging.


[Voyager 2 - Bridge]

JANEWAY 2: Hello. I'm Captain Kathryn Janeway. Welcome to the Bridge.
VIDIIAN: Commander! [on display screen] DESTRUCT SEQUENCE ENGAGED

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNTHnPbVtsw

 

[exodus]

Guy, are you getting Human Error confused with Homestead?

exodus, I'm with you on that Ransom didn't lose his humanity entirely, but, until he realized he was at the end of his rope, he was more upset about being caught red-handed than anything.

Yes, because I believe the natural human reaction to being caught commiting a crime is throw someone under the bus and too run. Sisko didn't want to get caught red-handed either, so he erased his daily log of the incident. If questioned, Garak would have been his fall guy.

Janeway was nowhere near what Ransom did because as he said, she wasn't on a ship where nothing worked and had a crew that was starving. Janeway was never in Ransom's shoes, she was on a ship that was designed for similar situations they were in. The Equinox never was. Janeway didn't have a crew suffering from post traumatic stress disorder either.

Well, that's not exactly true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZrPPP4R8Nc




Day 73 of 257

[Mess Hall]

JANEWAY: Each of you has done their best, but determination alone isn't going to hold this ship together. It's time we faced reality. We've lost nine decks, more than half the ship has been destroyed. Life support is nearly gone. Voyager can no longer sustain it's crew. I promised myself that I would never give this order, that I would never break up this family, but asking you to stay would be asking you to die. You will proceed to the escape pods and evacuate this vessel. Set your course for the alpha quadrant. Along the way, try to find allies, secure faster ships if you can, anything to get home. The senior staff and I will remain on board as long as possible. We will try somehow to rescue Tom and Chakotay. The escape pods are equipped with subspace beacons. That's how we'll keep track of you. When we find each other again, and we will, we will find each other again, I expect all of you to be in one piece with some interesting stories to tell. Good luck.


Or, if you want a reference to season 2...

JANEWAY 1: We've been studying that theory. And my B'Elanna tells me that sending any more than five to ten people through the rift would radically alter the atomic balance of the two Voyagers. We'd both be destroyed. Captain, I think you should return to your ship and run a metallurgical analysis. Find out the precise phase modulation of your hull. I'll do the same here. Maybe we can find a way to realign the phase displacement.
JANEWAY 2: You're going to self-destruct your ship.
JANEWAY 1: What makes you say that?
JANEWAY 2: Because that's what I would do if your Voyager were intact, and my Voyager were crippled, my crew wounded or dead. I'd sacrifice my ship so that yours could survive.

And we know that wasn't just bragging.


[Voyager 2 - Bridge]

JANEWAY 2: Hello. I'm Captain Kathryn Janeway. Welcome to the Bridge.
VIDIIAN: Commander! [on display screen] DESTRUCT SEQUENCE ENGAGED

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNTHnPbVtsw

Very good examples, however while we the audience are aware of the events of "YOH". Janeway and company are not, for them it never happened. So for Janeway, she still was never in Ransom's shoes where she was Capt. of a ship where nothing worked and the crew starving.

In "Deadlock", Janeway was willing to destroy her ship to allow the other to survive. Even with Voyager badly damaged, the systems still worked to allow for the ship to be repaired. With Neelix on board, the crew was never at any risk of starving. Plus with him being a native of the quaderent, he could negotiate deals with other native species that are closed to outsiders as we saw in "Resistance". Ransom had nobody like that on his team.

Neither situation caused Janeway to kill a life form for energy nor did any such a scenario make itself available to consider it. Janeway was never in Ransom's situation. Beyond "Caretaker", Janeway never lost the amount of crew Ransom did either. Most of the situations where she did were all resets, so the death count on Voyager was minimal.

 

[froot]

Certainly not. I was confusing Natural Law for Human Error.



Genocide is the extermination of a species. Ransom had only killed a few dozen of those bastards if 56 more of them can push him 30 thousand light years. Janeway might have killed as many as Ransom had in the Defense of Voyager because they were idiots fighting like Lemmings.

Ransom was willing to do horrible things to get home.

Anorax was willing to do horrible things to get home.

Admiral Janeway was willing to do horrible things to get home sooner. She didn't get home well enough. Won the game but didn't crack the high score.

For Anorax to be as bad as Admiral Janeway, he would have gotten his wife back and then felt distraught about the wrinkles around her yes and the sag on her boobies so returned to outside of time to get home "sooner" as he can then enjoy firmer melons on his missus.

For Ransom to be as bad as Admiral Janeway, after he got home, if he had gotten home, the lad would have had to have travelled back to Caretaker and shown his younger self how to kill space beasties and convert them into usable fuel... Which would have saved at least half his crew. Of course if Ransom had killed all the space beasties he needed for his youngerself to get home before he travelled back in time, then half of his crew would have been killed by the Krowtonan Guard in the first week and no one would have needed to know he was a bastard until the missions post mortem, and if he got back fast enough, Janeway never would have been lost in space, if he didn't torpedo the shit of caretaker 6 months before Janeway got taken, thus making his mission well more heroic in theory if you don't know every thing we do about how instrumental Voyager had to become to ensure the stability of Earth, the dq, the galaxy, the universe and the omniverse and time.

Admiral Janeway was a bad bad person.

Oh, man, my bad. You'll have to forgive me - I have never seen Human Error in its entirety and I think I either ignored or slept through Natural Law the first time it aired and never watched it again. I'm pretty rad at episode names until the last few of S7

(The moment I saw Seven putting holo!Chakotay's finger in her mouth in the episode previews I was like this and skipped VOY for the first and only time. But I digress.)

While I don't entirely agree with your assessment (I do not feel Admiral Janeway was more evil than the others listed - she diverted time rather than sitting around picking off whole civilizations for the lols), I do think that her messing with time simply because she didn't get that "high score" wasn't warranted. Understandable, well, yes. But she shouldn't have done it. Captain Janeway got the Admiral to see some sense, but she still played along enough to change the timeline in a big way.

If a sacrifice was needed to be made for the crew to see home, it should have been a legit one, with no time travel. Captain Janeway or Seven should have been the ones to die a noble death and save both Earth and the ship. Tragic, but way more fitting and awesome.

Anyways, exodus, I guess I do see your point. It was pretty obvious they were trying to show in Equinox what could have been for Voyager had they been less fortunate. I don't think Janeway would fall to Ransom's point without pretty hardcore circumstances (something even worse than YoH or whatever happened in the original Endgame timeline,) but she did prove in Equinox that she could start down that path if nudged.

 

[Akiraprise]

Put me in the camp of I liked it too. Did I think it was the greatest thing ever? No, of course not.

Hear me out. Endgame was the epitome of what VOY became. For better or for worse. It had time travel, Borg, alternate realities, shaky science, kewl space battles, a crazy Janeway (Admiral anyway, I think Captain Janeway was pretty normal given the circumstances she was thrust into.), a god mode Voyager, and the Borg Queen. Some people hate VOY precisely because that was what the show became. But, I liked it.

Now had the show been heavily serialized like BSG, with recurring plots, and had we truly gotten to know the entire crew, background characters and all, I'd have been pretty pissed with Endgame for not giving us the payoff of seeing our crew reunited with their families. We'd have been heavily invested in these characters and their lives. The fact is VOY was not like that. Hell we barely knew our senior staff. We knew they wanted to get home and why but after seven years we really knew nothing about them. That's not the kind of show VOY was. VOY was all about us following the crew on certain adventures in the Delta Quadrant. Popcorn action so to speak. TPTB did not want us to worry about where the fuel came from, or the food, or how the damage was repaired after insane battles so they skipped most of that. I totally disagree with that course of action, and if VOY was produced now instead of in the mid 90s I believe it would be one big recurring arc like BSG (not as bleak mind you), but it wasn't.

So back to Endgame. Endgame was the VOY show condensed into a two hour finale. Warts and all. If you didn't like VOY and just watched the finale you rolled your eyes, came on TrekBBS and told everyone the show was a piece of shit and so was the finale, and moved on. If you liked VOY for what it was, basically a fun little Trek show that did not take itself too seriously, you liked Endgame. In the end the crew got home, most lived happily ever after presumably, and Voyager herself was probably stripped of useful tech and flown into the sun for her years of faithful service.