Yeah, because any fan that likes a Star Trek without a(n often trite) moral message is an indifferent lemming
Okay, get ready to throw Tomatoes but I liked "Endgame".
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Yeah, because any fan that likes a Star Trek without a(n often trite) moral message is an indifferent lemming
Yeah, because any fan that likes a Star Trek without a(n often trite) moral message is an indifferent lemming
I like trite, moral endings.
I'm not asking for a pat/pedantic (or even artfully done) moral message in every ep; I only ask that we not be asked to cheer selfishness and otherwise contemptible behavior. If you can't see the difference between the two, then (Yeah, because any fan that likes a Star Trek without a(n often trite) moral message is an indifferent lemming
^2).
And what better way to end the show than by having Adm. Janeway ignore the journey and discard all of her morals because the lives of her personal buddies didn't play out like she wanted? I guess Captain Janeway's hands are technically clean, and we can be glad that she died before she went back and changed history for selfish reasons again. (Before I get lynched for this, it's a joke)
Especially considering NOT doing this sort of BS was something that Chakotay drove home in Shattered...
I saw Janeway struggling with her morals the whole series.
She was always just one step away from becoming like Ransom. So it wasn't a surprise that the end of the trip, she'd end up like him. So she changed her future by saving herself in the past. Didn't Seven say in "Think Tank" that cheating was sometimes more efficient?
(a) Like C/7
(b) Time Travel episodes are favourite
(c) Borg are brilliant.
I agree with B and C, but strongly disagree with A. As others have said, C/7 was out of nowhere, much like Troi and Worf. But that one was thankfully fixed by DS9.
Count me in as one who's always liked Endgame (aside from the Chakotay/Seven thing).
I haven't much of an apologia to write justifying my reasons; I just liked it. I thought it fit VOY's style fine. And I actually liked leaving the Earth/UFP/DMZ(?) homecoming up to the imagination.
But if you are familiar with my posts, you know I'm a dunce when it comes to judging quality and even acting (I actually liked Harry/Wang and Chakotay/Beltran. I even liked the Borglings and especially Naomi Wildman, except for the do-nothing twins. I thought they were all terrific child actors.)
In fact, I'm so bad I liked just about every character on VOY, except for Kes. I didn't dislike her, but I started watching VOY reruns in season four, so it was odd for me to see Kes — I wasn't used to her.
If you really want to know how poor of a judge I am, I probably like VOY best (though I really like DS9 and TNG).
But wait — it gets worse: my favorite movie was TMP. Second favorite was SFS. Then a tie between Generations and Insurrection.
Obviously I'm not normal. I could list all my RL neuroses, but that's a little personal. Ok, fine: severe OCD, severe anxiety disorder, massive depressive disorder, paralyzing fear of dogs (even tiny ones), and more. And then there are my myriad physical problems, but I'd best stop before I get out of control.
I haven't much of an apologia to write justifying my reasons; I just liked it. I thought it fit VOY's style fine. And I actually liked leaving the Earth/UFP/DMZ(?) homecoming up to the imagination.
But if you are familiar with my posts, you know I'm a dunce when it comes to judging quality and even acting (I actually liked Harry/Wang and Chakotay/Beltran. I even liked the Borglings and especially Naomi Wildman, except for the do-nothing twins. I thought they were all terrific child actors.)
In fact, I'm so bad I liked just about every character on VOY, except for Kes. I didn't dislike her, but I started watching VOY reruns in season four, so it was odd for me to see Kes — I wasn't used to her.
If you really want to know how poor of a judge I am, I probably like VOY best (though I really like DS9 and TNG).
But wait — it gets worse: my favorite movie was TMP. Second favorite was SFS. Then a tie between Generations and Insurrection.
Obviously I'm not normal. I could list all my RL neuroses, but that's a little personal. Ok, fine: severe OCD, severe anxiety disorder, massive depressive disorder, paralyzing fear of dogs (even tiny ones), and more. And then there are my myriad physical problems, but I'd best stop before I get out of control.
Cepstrum You sound perfectly normal to me. I could tick quite a lot of your boxes although I'm not going to list all of them. Apart from your last para I can empathise with most of that. Just for the record however I loved Harry, Chakotay and Naomi Wildman especially her relationship with Seven.
Oh and Kes, I agree.
Oh and Kes, I agree.
None of that come across when you write, so you're cool with me.Obviously I'm not normal. I could list all my RL neuroses, but that's a little personal. Ok, fine: severe OCD, severe anxiety disorder, massive depressive disorder, paralyzing fear of dogs (even tiny ones), and more. And then there are my myriad physical problems, but I'd best stop before I get out of control.
Besides, what exactly is normal now a days anyway?
Ok, maybe "normal" is just a setting on a washing machine. I'm not "typical". (I doubt it's typical to end up in an ambulance/ER multiple times because of self harm. My self-image is lower than dirt. That's why when ppl criticize me here or on MA I go into a funk. And I'm constantly bothering the moderators to apologize for the threads I start.)
But it is gratifying to hear someone likes some of the things I do.
But it is gratifying to hear someone likes some of the things I do.
While we're going off topic, you should be down on yourself the way you are. In the short time you've been here I've found you to be extremely polite, intelligent and kind. Those qualities IMO go much farther and over shadow any of the other faults you believe you have. Don't harm yourself, please. The traits you've shown here are you gift to the world and without you in it, the world will have lost the qualities you bring to it.
Thanks, exodus. Sorry for going off topic. It's just I have no friends IRL and nearly killed myself yet again last week by trying to walk in front of traffic.
I truly am sorry for disrupting this conversation. Please accept my sincerest apologies.
Hombre, I can't view an admission such as that as anything other than a cry for help. And I sincerely hope that you do get help, for your sake and others', and do something that leads to a better life every day, even something as little as starting a Misc. thread like Admiral Shran's.
Best wishes.
Best wishes.
Endgame is a terrific episode. I understand that they chickened out of having the ship destroy the Borg, at the expense of a quick journey home. But if fans were going to get crazy about lack of "closure" when Endgame clearly showed them getting home, they would have resorted to violence with an open ending like that.
The Whettestone "review" was a tedious collection of inanities. If he accidentally included a valid point, my patience was worn too thin to let me see it. Michelle Erica Green seemed to have forgotten that Admiral Janeway failed in her plans to change the past. And I'm not sure that she realized that Captain Janeway changed the future. Any system of ethics that denies people the right to change the future is unspeakably vile.
The notion that any timeline without a Captain Janeway surviving to become an Admiral Janeway therefore is out of reach/incompatible/unconnected to/paradoxical with the timelines in which Admiral Janeway traveled back in the timeline to save Voyager is about as sensible a compromise as you can reach in any scifi that permits changes in "the" past.
C/7 was foreshadowed in Human Error, where it was perfectly clear that Chakotary wasn't just a hologram but acted as the real Chakotay. That doesn't make even as much sense as time travel with limited paradoxes. But I don't recall anyone complaining about Human Error for that reason. Therefore I don't take seriously any complaints about C/7. The unblinking acceptance of nonsense (aka bad science) really did tremendous damage to the Trek spinoffs, but hardly anyone complains about that either.
The Whettestone "review" was a tedious collection of inanities. If he accidentally included a valid point, my patience was worn too thin to let me see it. Michelle Erica Green seemed to have forgotten that Admiral Janeway failed in her plans to change the past. And I'm not sure that she realized that Captain Janeway changed the future. Any system of ethics that denies people the right to change the future is unspeakably vile.
The notion that any timeline without a Captain Janeway surviving to become an Admiral Janeway therefore is out of reach/incompatible/unconnected to/paradoxical with the timelines in which Admiral Janeway traveled back in the timeline to save Voyager is about as sensible a compromise as you can reach in any scifi that permits changes in "the" past.
C/7 was foreshadowed in Human Error, where it was perfectly clear that Chakotary wasn't just a hologram but acted as the real Chakotay. That doesn't make even as much sense as time travel with limited paradoxes. But I don't recall anyone complaining about Human Error for that reason. Therefore I don't take seriously any complaints about C/7. The unblinking acceptance of nonsense (aka bad science) really did tremendous damage to the Trek spinoffs, but hardly anyone complains about that either.
Her plan was to use future tech to get Voyager home sixteen years early, even at the risk of failing and letting that future tech slip into Borg hands. Which is what happened. How, then, did she fail?
Just because that ep isn't as decried as the series finale doesn't mean much. If we Trek fans complained about every single Voyager episode that sucked, we'd have precious little time for much else.
I like being surprised.
Admiral Janeway surprised me.
The "by the book" Starfleet officer did something SO not by the book, its almost unfathomable.
Almost.
We have to realize that this character is a woman who struggled for 23 years to fulfill a promise to herself and her crew. To get them home. A promise she failed to keep for the 22 people who died after the Voyager visited the nebula and the transwarp hub.
We have to realize that she kept the faith with her Starfleet ideals for 33 years... all the while watching person after person die, watching Seven and Chakotay die, watching Tuvok descend into senility until her barely knew her.
Remember that line from "The Wizard of Oz". The Tinman tells Dorothy that he now knows he has a heart... because he can feel it breaking.
The Admiral's heart broke on that trip home. And like James T Kirk, she realized that she didn't have to believe in "the no win" scenario. Like Harry Kim and Chakotay in "Timeless", she found a way to change history... and she did.
Or did she.
She tried to fake the Captain into the transwarp hub to bring them home early, to change HER history.... but that didn't happen. Captain Janeway didn't cooperate.
Surprise.
The Captain wasn't a broken hearted woman in her 70's, she was a fierce warrior in her 40's, one who was not about to leave the stage without striking a blow against the greatest threat the Federation had ever faced... the BORG.
The Admiral wanted everyone home safe and sound, the Captain wanted to SAVE humanity, to save the Federation, just like she wanted to save the Ocampa.
JANEWAY: I'm aware everyone has families and loved ones at homes they want to get back to. So do I. But I'm not willing to trade the lives of the Ocampa for our convenience. We'll have to find another way home
And if by saving the Federation, it meant she and her crew would die or be stranded in the DQ for another 16 years, then so be it.
Captain Janeway was a Starfleet Officer, and by God she would be one until she died... fighting for her beliefs and for her planet and for her Federation.
Captain Janeway wasn't staring into the past, wishing things could be different.
Captain Janeway was standing at the front of her bridge, staring into her future, and daring the fates to just TRY andstand in her way!
JANEWAY: (injects her) Good luck, Admiral.
ADMIRAL: You, too. Captain, I'm glad I got to know you again.
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Her plan was for Voyager to use the future tech to survive a very quick flight into the complex and then slip away through the transwarp hub. This plan was far less likely to allow the Borg a chance to garner future tech than the alternate plan devised by the Captain and Admiral after the Captain insisted on attacking the transwarp hub.
The revised plan involved the Admiral being captured in order to launch a biowarfare attack on the Collective. If it failed the Borg would have the future tech from the Admiral. The attack plan on the transwarp hub was altered to a possible escape plan by allowing Voyager to be seized by a Borg vessel which would be forced to escape through a hub. Obviously, allowing the seizure of Voyager meant that if the escape failed then the tech would be seized along with Voyager.
Of course, any attack plan had to have an escape or self destruction built into it, or the Borg would find the future tech in the wreckage. The Captain's insistence on attacking the transwarp hub was not part of the Admiral's plan.
Admiral Janeway did not change the past the way she planned. Captain Janeway changed her future, as is her moral right.
One premise of Endgame is that the Borg had a transwarp hub that would have allowed the conquest of Earth at any moment. Another is that the Borg are a ferociously and mercilessly aggressive, nearly omnipotent enemy. Both at once is nonsense, of course. I explain the contradiction (and the general viewer indifference to the contradiction) to the "Collective" being, basically, symbol of the Communist Menace. Captain Janeway annihilating the Commies, er, the Borg, is Good.
I complain loudly about C/7, but don't complain about "Human Error" because the premise of "Human Error" fits very well with my view of Seven of Nine as emotionally adolescent. The scenario of "Human Error" fits perfectly into the female adolescent behavior of having a crush on the unobtainable older male. Today it is seen as having fantasies about rock, movie, or TV stars, the only difference is today’s female teenager doesn't have a hologram to program. The episode actually points out how emotionally immature (abet growing) Seven of Nine was.
"Human Error's" holographic C/7 is believable, "Endgame's" C/7 isn't.
Brit
Nobody, not even an emotional adolescent programs their would be boy friend to stand over them demanding an answer. When Chakotay grabs her arm, isn't it physical intimidation? A woman into masochistic scenarios writes holocharacters like that, not immature girl-women fantasizing about an unobtainable male. (And how unobtainable, anyhow?) The alleged hologram Chakotay somehow was the real Chakotay, and he wasn't going to put up with her adolescent BS.
Do you have any idea how big the demand for BDSM professional novels is? How do you know she didn't write him that way? Because it's obvious to me she did. Why do you think she wouldn't, there are all kinds of BDSM romances available if you know where to look right now. Granted these are more on e-publishing sites, but you can easily find then and that means someone wants to read them. There are all kinds of fantasies for all kinds of people, and if Tom can have Captain Photon, then Seven can have a super alpha Chakotay.
Brit
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