Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogue

[Sephiroth]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

just got done re-reading Deathly Hallows, which will be the second time reading since I got the book actualy, I just completed a marathon of OOTP, HBP and DH, and I feel that on the subject of the relationships Rowling wrote Chang horribly, there was a mutual attraction between them, then she goes off with Diggory rather uncharateristicaly, then Harry never has a truely decent moment with her after, all I'm going to say on the Ginny thing is that alot of people end up marrying thier high school sweethearts,especialy in a fairly closed scociety. Hary and Ginny happend kind of organicaly, but it kind of felt forced because it happened over the last 2 books, I'm sure more fans would feel better with it if DH didn't go straight from the Battle of Hogwarts to 19 years later(Rowlings biggest mistake IMHO) and we got a few paragraphs or chapters of Harry's 7th year in which he would have been in the same year with Ginny and spent more time with her. As for bright, intelligent Hermione and dull, thick Ron, oppisites are supposed to attract, and I can't realy see anyone who could have been better for him.

 

[kitsune]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

As for bright, intelligent Hermione and dull, thick Ron, oppisites are supposed to attract, and I can't realy see anyone who could have been better for him.

Nobody doubts that Hermione would be great for Ron.
The problem is that Ron would be awful for Hermione.

In Rowling's world, Hermione really gets the short end of the stick (I just realized that that cliche doesn't even make sense).

 

[DonIago]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

You've got to appreciate the irony...first fans are upset because the scenes they want to see aren't filmed...then they're upset because scenes are filmed that they don't want to see.

...except, of course, that based on this poll more than half the audience actually does want to see the epilogue.

 

[chardman]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

I'm fine w/ the Epilogue, both in the book, and what I've seen in stills of the filmed version. I'm surprised by just how natural and believable the age make-up looks on both Daniel Radcliff and Bonnie Wright. I honestly don't get the hate some people have for this part of the story.

 

[Tulin]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

Indeed.

As I said earlier, I had never heard of the hatred for the epilogue and what I really think is going on is one or two people didn't like it and are doing the whole, "EVERYBODY HATES IT!!!!!!!111" schtick.

 

[Sephiroth]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

As for bright, intelligent Hermione and dull, thick Ron, oppisites are supposed to attract, and I can't realy see anyone who could have been better for him.

Nobody doubts that Hermione would be great for Ron.
The problem is that Ron would be awful for Hermione.

In Rowling's world, Hermione really gets the short end of the stick (I just realized that that cliche doesn't even make sense).

I disagree, Ron and Hermione would both learn from eachother, Ron has alot of Fred & George in him and Hermione needs someone like that in her life to keep her from becoming the next Professor Binns

 

[Gaith]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

...except, of course, that based on this poll more than half the audience actually does want to see the epilogue.

... And they apparently want Jar-Jar to make an appearance also...

 

[Sephiroth]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

^....And Jar-Jar Binks as Albus Severus Potter

 

[FPAlpha]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

She spends the whole series setting things up one way, then pulls a "bait and switch" and does another.

Hermione/Ron is set up almost from day one, and I can't believe you didn't see it - the only reason you couldn't have done is if you're a Harry/Hermione shipper who refused to see the plainly obvious. I could see it coming from Askaban, and there are moments of it before that, looking back. Harry/Ginny was more a marriage of convenience in that there were no other remaining characters who were credible, and Harry needed an emotional tie to Hogwarts in book 7 a bit stronger than Neville, but Harry/Hermione was never on the cards. And Ginny was a lot better choice than Cho, who was a horrible character, probably deliberately.

Bull.

Harry/Hermione is the relationship set up from Book 1.

Hermione tells him in the potions puzzle room: “Me! Books! And cleverness! There are more important things — friendship and bravery and — oh Harry — be careful!”. Clearly she is expressing her deep feeling for Harry in the only way a pre-pubescent girl could (them still being pre-teens). It is said that people seek out for relationships those who most resemble their opposite sex parent. On that basis CLEARLY Hermoine is the winner. Like Lily, she is the smartest witch of her generation. She has a sweet disposition unless riled up (and then watch out!) She is always by his side, with the exception of the Broom Incident, and the Book Incident, and even then she was only looking out for his best interests. She STAYS by him even when moRon abandons them (4th year, the hoarcrux hunt).

Yes, it is ENTIRELY logical and reasonable that she would forego all that and pair off with slovenly, slothful, fair-weather friend Ron Weasley, who went out of his way to berate and verbally abuse her almost from the moment they met...

And then there's Ginny, the non-entity for 5 books (other than a stint as "damsel in distress" in Book 2). You admit she's a "default" choice, but she's not even worthy of that.

She's a nobody, a cipher. She's "Ron's little sister". Harry never really notices her in a boy/girl fashion until the emergence of the "chest monster" in Book 6. That sudden and out of proportion reaction to her and Dean (IIRC) is not the product of legitimate good feeling. It is at best a sudden obsession. Keep in mind how Amortentia works. And also keep in mind there is a family history of Weasley women dosing their love interests (which Molly fesses up to in Book 5).

From 5-book non-entity to love of his life in one book...yeah, that's natural and healthy...oh, but wait, she has RED hair, so obviously SHE is Harry's destined mate because Lily had red hair... [/FONT]

You are applying logic to teenage romance.. all right

How do you come to the conclusion that Ron is a fair weather friend? Him leaving Harry during the Horcrux hunt was due to the Horcrux affecting him in a negative way (think the One Ring in LotR) and not because it got dangerous (he stuck with Harry through other life threatening crisis). Once free of the influence he immeadetly returns and saves Harry.. read the book better or remember it better.

As for him and Hermione.. well, stuff happens. Prebubescent feelings aside emotions develop not in a logical way. The hero got a different girl and his friends hooked up.. it happens. Just because many wanted Hermione and Harry to hook up doesn't mean it should happen.. it was nicely developed since book 3 where we had the first open signs and continued onwards.

Harry and Ginny though.. i'll give you that. This came out of nowhere it seems (at least for me) but not for the "potion princess" stuff you think. Harry needed apparently someone even closer than his friends and Ginny was about the only halfway established girl and Rowling may have not have the time and space to fully introduce a new love interest and explore her further so apparently she decided for Ginny. Not my choice but there it is.

Once again.. forget about logic for christ's sake. You are applying logic as if these were science books or some crime novels. They're not.. i said it before: These are fairy tales.. period.

Was it logical for two kids to venture out into the dark forest and suddenly find a witches hut in Hansel & Gretel?

Where the fuck is the logic that Red Hood (or whatever her name is in english) can't see the difference between a wolf and grandma in bed?

Stop with the logic soundbite.. Rowling made story decisions to advance the plot and the characters and just because you don't like those decisions you claim them to be illogical and cite some dubious reasons (and yet you read all 7 seven books in a series you apparently deem badly written and illogical ).

If you were just interested in the factual events read the summaries on Wikipedia or somewhere else as i have done with TV shows i don't bother with but still wanted to know the facts (without investing major time and actually watching the episodes).

 

[Tulin]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

Owned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Shazam!]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

Harry and Luna was obviously the way to go.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

, all I'm going to say on the Ginny thing is that alot of people end up marrying thier high school sweethearts,especialy in a fairly closed scociety.

They never WERE "high school sweethearts". They barely exchanged two words with one another despite being around each other both at school and the Burrow until Book 6 when the "chest monster" makes it's appearance Prior to that, all Ginny was good for was squeaking and sticking her elbows in butter dishes.

Hary and Ginny happend kind of organicaly, but it kind of felt forced because it happened over the last 2 books,

Contradict yourself much? It's "organic" but also "forced"...?

As for bright, intelligent Hermione and dull, thick Ron, oppisites are supposed to attract, and I can't realy see anyone who could have been better for him.

Maybe there isn't anyone...maybe he SHOULDN'T have paired up with anyone. What woman would put up with slothful, slovenly, foul-tempered moRon?

Certainly not a bright, well-bred young lady from an upper-middle class family like Hermione Granger.

 

[Shazam!]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

What woman would put up with slothful, slovenly, foul-tempered moRon?

Certainly not a bright, well-bred young lady from an upper-middle class family like Hermione Granger.

I smell a sit-com!

 

[Rowan Sjet]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

Harry and Luna was obviously the way to go.

Damn straight!

Contrary to my earlier post, the epilogue wasn't that bad, so I don't mind it being included in the film. It just wasn't that good either.

well-bred

I remember you using this term last time this subject came up, so I'll say now what I said then: Stop it, it's icky.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

I disagree, Ron and Hermione would both learn from eachother, Ron has alot of Fred & George in him and Hermione needs someone like that in her life to keep her from becoming the next Professor Binns

Ron has NOTHING of Fred/George in him, other than red hair. For all their pranksterism, the twins worked hard for their success. Inventing all those pranks and gags to sell took dilligence, intelligence, and effort.

Ron is utterly lacking in those qualities.

You are applying logic to teenage romance.. all right

No, I'm applying logic and standards of writing to a written story.

How do you come to the conclusion that Ron is a fair weather friend? Him leaving Harry during the Horcrux hunt was due to the Horcrux affecting him in a negative way (think the One Ring in LotR) and not because it got dangerous (he stuck with Harry through other life threatening crisis). Once free of the influence he immeadetly returns and saves Harry.. read the book better or remember it better.

Ron has a long history of fair-weatherism (among his many other character flaws) going all the way back to Book 3 at a minimum, with the Broom incident. All he cared about was that it looked like Harry wouldn't get to use the broom to help Gryffindor win at quidditch. Never mind that no one knew where it came from, or who sent it. Hermione was the only one to think of what was best for HARRY, and turned the broom in to McGonnagal.

I'm not even going to go into the bitch fit Ron threw throughout much of Book 4 vis a vis Harry and the Tournament.

As for him and Hermione.. well, stuff happens. Prebubescent feelings aside emotions develop not in a logical way.

Psychology is not THAT random, or else we would not be able to study it and use it to predict human behavior.

Rowling has Hermione acting in a way not consistent with believable human behavior in pairing up with moRon. Thus her plot construction is NOT logical.

The hero got a different girl and his friends hooked up.. it happens. Just because many wanted Hermione and Harry to hook up doesn't mean it should happen.. it was nicely developed since book 3 where we had the first open signs and continued onwards.

Oh yes "Hermione, YOU'RE a GIRL" is such a mature development of feelings...oh, and let us not forget Hermione was Ron's last ditch attempt at finding someone, ANYONE to date for the Ball.

Oh, and what did Ron do to Hermione after the ball? He bitched her out AGAIN, leaving her in tears.

But it's ok, because he has a book of cheesy pick-up tactics that tells him JUST how to woo any woman's heart...

Harry and Ginny though.. i'll give you that. This came out of nowhere it seems (at least for me) but not for the "potion princess" stuff you think. Harry needed apparently someone even closer than his friends and Ginny was about the only halfway established girl and Rowling may have not have the time and space to fully introduce a new love interest and explore her further so apparently she decided for Ginny. Not my choice but there it is.

That is giving Rowling too much credit, given that she's IGNORING the first five books that show Ron/Hermione to be a terrible match, and Harry/Hermione to be a GOOD match.

GOOD couples are each others' best friends as well as lovers/partners. Ginny could NEVER be that for Harry. They haven't gone though what Harry and Hermione have.

Once again.. forget about logic for christ's sake. You are applying logic as if these were science books or some crime novels. They're not.. i said it before: These are fairy tales.. period.

Fairy tales are not exempt from criticism on the grounds of bad writing. Rowling is the one to attempt to write characters with more depth than the carboard-cutouts of fairy tales. Therefore it is only right and fair to judge her work by a more discerning standard.

Stop with the logic soundbite.. Rowling made story decisions to advance the plot and the characters.

That's the problem right there. She writes her plot and uses her characters as little more than plot advancers rather than allowing them to exist and grow as dynamic, authentic characters.

And the ships aren't the only area she does that in.

and just because you don't like those decisions you claim them to be illogical and cite some dubious reasons (and yet you read all 7 seven books in a series you apparently deem badly written and illogical ).

I cite textual passages and events that ROWLING WROTE to support what I say.

well-bred

I remember you using this term last time this subject came up, so I'll say now what I said then: Stop it, it's icky.

There is nothing "icky" about using proper language.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/well-bred

Main Entry: well–bred

Pronunciation: \-ˈbred\
Function: adjective

Date: circa 1589

1 : having or displaying good breeding : refined

2 : having a good pedigree <well–bred swine>

or put this way:

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/well-bred

well-bred adjective

1 well-bred, well-mannered
of good upbringing

 

[Stevil2001]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

Harry and Luna was obviously the way to go.

No, Neville and Luna!

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

Harry and Luna was obviously the way to go.

No, Neville and Luna!

Not a bad pairing. Neville/Ginny would work as well, esp if you're keying off of the movie version of Book 4.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

I haven't read any of the books and I'm not much of a HP fan, so I'm fascinated to learn about the debate over the epilogue.

Reminds me a bit of the raging fan fight over the ending of the Dark Tower series a few years ago. Some of the folks out there were screaming for King's head ...

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

Well, if you are to read many of her comments and conversations about it, she put quite a bit of thought into the complexity of the characters and their motivations; that's part of why it bridged the gap and appealed to both young and old readers. And especially because of her nagging internal thoughts about life after death, the untimely death of her mother, and other deep issues she had to deal with in her life, I would not go so far as to say it was a simple young adult adventure tale. She wanted it to be thought-provoking and challenging as well.

All that to say, again, it was just the epilogue, so I take it for what she wanted it to be.

I have not read or listened to any interviews with Rowling - but in every author interview I have ever read, the writer can usually speak at length about the thought process involved in creating the characters. That does not make the characters or their writing complex or thought-provoking. I've asked dozens of people this and no one has ever been able to answer me - if HP is a complex and thought-provoking piece of literature, tell me a theme, or symbolic motif contained within the work that is more complex than bigotry is bad, good inevitably wins over evil, or love is more powerful than hate, which are not thought-provoking themes at all, heart-warming as they may be.

Look, I'm not bagging on HP - they are charming, enjoyable adventure tales. But they're not thought-provoking.

No one wants to deny Harry his "happy ever after". But we want it to be based on some reasonable semblance of logic. Naming kids after men who abused him is not logical. Marrying the Potions Princess is not logical. Hermione marrying moRon is not logical.

If you want to apply logic to HP, by Harry's third year everyone should have looked at each other every April and said - let's get the hell out of Hogwarts since something terrible is bound to happen any minute now since it's the end of the school year.

Ginny was obviously introduced from the very beginning specifically to become Harry's love and a way for him to actualize his place as part of the Weasley family. Rowling telegraphed this from the minute Ginny first appeared with her exaggerated crush on Harry. Does this make Ginny more of a plot device than a character? Absolutely, but that's a weakness of Rowling's writing and nothing else. Hermione and Ron were likewise set up from early on - and by GoF she's hitting you over the head with how obviously they are "meant to be together". The entire dynamic and a good portion of the action centered on the Weasley family and their home - which is presented as the ideal family in the fictional universe, and the only way for everyone to get incorporated into the Weasley family is by marriage. Thus - Ron and Hermione and thus Harry and Ginny. You may find the epilogue unsatisfying but I think that means you didn't really like the books as they have a pretty straight-forward throughline- all heading toward exactly the ending that was provided.

As for your abusive adults criticism - HP is escapist wish-fulfillment young adult fiction. A key trope of that genre is kids dealing with over-the-top disciplinarian adults and overprotective adults as these are two things kids in real life perceive as major impediments to their lives. The exaggerated quality of Snape and Dumbledore is simply a way to deliver dramatic tension. That the adults are, in the end, revealed to have been working in Harry's best interests is part of the general tone of Rowling's universe in which Harry, an unrealistically idealized hero who deals with unrealistically exaggerated circumstances (like the Dursleys who are tremendously over-the-top in their abusive treatment of Harry), is able to forgive and love both men to such a point that he honors them by incorporating them into his family by naming his children after them. Again, everything comes back to Harry's ultimate familial happiness, thus righting the wrong which is repeatedly held up throughout the book as his tragic loss. It's all very simple - but it's also all very consistent with the nature and tone of the stories from beginning to end.

 

[Caligula]

Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu

No one wants to deny Harry his "happy ever after". But we want it to be based on some reasonable semblance of logic. Naming kids after men who abused him is not logical. Marrying the Potions Princess is not logical. Hermione marrying moRon is not logical.

Such is life. People get married for all sorts of reasons. If logic factored into it, and we all wed based solely on who was the best choice for us rather than what our hormones tells us is right, would there be any need for divorce? We're not Vulcans, after all.

BS.

You're just trying to "give a bye" to Rowling's utter lack of reason and logic in her pairing choices. She spends the whole series setting things up one way, then pulls a "bait and switch" and does another.

That's bad writing no matter how you try to justify it.

First, I never read the books, although I feel as though I have since family members have told me virtually everything about them. Second, all I'm trying to do is offer a counterpoint to your argument that, since their behavior is illogical, they must be under a spell. Love is an unpredictable emotion that has NOTHING to do with logic.

The fact that Ron treats Hermione poorly and then they later end up together isn't that hard to grasp. This sort of thing happens between two people who "hate" each other ALL THE TIME here in the real world. If you want to use another example from modern fiction, remember Han and Leia from Star Wars? Look how badly they fought before they acknowleged their love for each other. True, the writing there wasn't seamless, either, but it changes nothing. And Harry falling in love with someone who's been a non-entity in his life until then? That's pretty common, too. Often, people can't see what's right in front of their faces... even with glasses.