Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogue
- Thread starter Gaith
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Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
It's much more interesting to note though, that during that all of that, Rowling doesnt take any opportunity to link Harry to Ginny. Instead, she furthers Harry linking with Hermione.
For example, when they all scatter, Harry just reaches back and grabs someones robes by random. We dont see that Harry specifically tried to grab someone, he just throws his hands back and takes hold of some robes, and it turns out to be..... not Ginny, the supposed, planned from the start, love interest of Harry, but Hermione.
During the entire fight sequence, Ginny is off screen along with Ron and Luna, while Hermione is right in the thick of it with Harry, Rowling even goes as far as to keep Hermione in the midst of the readers mind after she is knocked out, by constantly refering to it as "Hermione's wand" whenever it is used.
Furthermoe, Rowling actually gives us a very interesting comparison. At this point in the novels, there are three realistic girls with whom Harry might end up with, Hermione, Ginny, and Luna. And we get to see Harry's reaction to each being injured. And we get to contrast them.
We see that Harry sees Ginny get a magical blast directly in her face and goes down. We get to see Harry see Luna get hit and thrown across the room before becoming "as still as Hermione" (important notage, I'll point out why in a moment), and we see Harry see Hermione get sliced with a wierd spell which knocks her out.
Now as I said, Luna is noted as being "as still as Hermione" which implies that Harry realises it is as serious an injury to Luna, as it was to Hermione, but how does Harry react?
Ginny gets hit, Harry doesnt flinch, Luna gets flung across the room and is down and out, Harry barely raises an eyebrow. Hermione gets injured, and Harry completely loses it. In the middle of the battle he drops to his knees in panic, and focuses only on hermione to the exclusion of everything else. the relief that flows through him when Neville says he can feel a pulse is palpable.
And we get to see all this, we get to see that Harry sees all three of these incidents, and we also get to see that Hermione is the one that causes him to react. This is a scene that Rowling shows Harry's reactions to each event, and boy is it interesting. (Assuming you are into the shipping aspect, which, considering how mundane and poor the overal plot ended up being, was surely the only genuinely interesting aspect of the books after about book three anyway)
Ginny doesnt get "established" a secondary player in book five, we get told she is suddenly a secondary player. We are told of her prowess, and abilities etc, but we never see them, they are always relayed to teh reader by a third party, describing some instance that happened previously.
Indeed, as mentioned above, Rowling could have swapped Ginny with Hermione in the Department of mysteries bit, have Harry really upset when ginny gets injured, have Harry instinctivly reach back and grab her robes, foreshadow something, but no, Harry focuses only on Hermione.
Considering Rowling supposedly wanted Ginny as Harry's love interest from the very start, there are some very weird choices made, from a writing point of view in that scene. Of course, that is not limited to Harry and ginny, or that one sceen in book five (of course this is not an exception, every book apart from book six , shows Harry and Hermione growing closer), the entire thing has Harry and Hermione growing closer and closer, while Ron grows further away from both. Which as I have said, is a pattern from book one through to seven, with the exception of six, and maybe two, but it is there, growing each time in books one, three, four, five, and seven.
Just an example, from book five, in the final quiditch game of the season, where Ron finally gets over his nerves and has an outstanding game and is a hero, finally not in Harry's shadow, does Hermione see it? Yeah she sees and loves it....oh no, wait, she is off having adventures in the wood with Harry as they get introduced to Grawp. Which is another weird choice, as Hagrid specifically asks Harry for help, Hermione, since she is supposedly Rons main squeeze, planned from the beginning, could have been written to say she'll stay at the quditch match. It would have made sense, she wasnt specifically asked to go along, it would have drawn less suspicion if Umbridge had seen her but not Harry there, than if she had seen neither there, and it would have shown Hermione caring about Ron. But no, see just ups and follows Harry.
Someone mentioned earier "settling". A damning case can be made, simply by quoting the text of these books, you do not need to read between the lines or anything, to say that Hermine settled for Ron because she thought Harry didnt feel that way for her, and Harry settled for Ginny because he thought Hermione loved Ron.
Proof to back this up? Well for example, the scene in the final book where Ron confronts Harry about Hermione? Have a read, Harry can not look Ron in the eyes (a classic sign of someone lieing), as he tells him, very lamely, that he views Hermione as more of a sister and "reckons" Hermione does too, even though he hasnt actually talked to her about it and given her the opportunity to tell him otherwise.
Or when Ron (again with angry, ultimatum making Ron), under the influence of the horocrux (..did someone say "my precious"? could have, blatant rip off that it was) is ready to storm off and directly asks Hermione to chose between him and Harry? This is a pivtal scene. Hermione has to chose between Ron and Harry. And what does Hermione do? Bare in mind that supposedly from the very start rowling intended the pairings of Harry/Ginny and ron/Hermione. What does Hermione, Ron's future wife do when forced to chose between Ron and Harry? she immediately, and I mean immediately chooses harry. Not only that, she throws up a shield charm to seperate her and Harry from Ron.
And I could of course start waxing on about how the most romantic scenes in the book (scenes which Rowlng has since come out and said were "intense" and that at that moment the love thing could have gone "either way") belong to the couple that never made it to paper. Harry and Hermione.
Anyway. Where was I? I've strayed from the point I wanted to make originally, which was that Ginny was a very badly written character, ignored for the first four books, then suddenly "superwitch", powerful and the one the boys wanted, ace quiditch player and better lier than the twins, from book five onwards, all of which was told to us and not shown.
That and the epilogue was terribly written and should never darken the screens.
Bugger all. Another wasted plot point....
In fact, the Department of Mysteries Battle (before the Order arrives) features who? The triad that's been the main characters all along (Harry, Ron, Hermione), and three other characters who have become really a "second trinity" in Neville, Ginny, and Luna.
It's much more interesting to note though, that during that all of that, Rowling doesnt take any opportunity to link Harry to Ginny. Instead, she furthers Harry linking with Hermione.
For example, when they all scatter, Harry just reaches back and grabs someones robes by random. We dont see that Harry specifically tried to grab someone, he just throws his hands back and takes hold of some robes, and it turns out to be..... not Ginny, the supposed, planned from the start, love interest of Harry, but Hermione.
During the entire fight sequence, Ginny is off screen along with Ron and Luna, while Hermione is right in the thick of it with Harry, Rowling even goes as far as to keep Hermione in the midst of the readers mind after she is knocked out, by constantly refering to it as "Hermione's wand" whenever it is used.
Furthermoe, Rowling actually gives us a very interesting comparison. At this point in the novels, there are three realistic girls with whom Harry might end up with, Hermione, Ginny, and Luna. And we get to see Harry's reaction to each being injured. And we get to contrast them.
We see that Harry sees Ginny get a magical blast directly in her face and goes down. We get to see Harry see Luna get hit and thrown across the room before becoming "as still as Hermione" (important notage, I'll point out why in a moment), and we see Harry see Hermione get sliced with a wierd spell which knocks her out.
Now as I said, Luna is noted as being "as still as Hermione" which implies that Harry realises it is as serious an injury to Luna, as it was to Hermione, but how does Harry react?
Ginny gets hit, Harry doesnt flinch, Luna gets flung across the room and is down and out, Harry barely raises an eyebrow. Hermione gets injured, and Harry completely loses it. In the middle of the battle he drops to his knees in panic, and focuses only on hermione to the exclusion of everything else. the relief that flows through him when Neville says he can feel a pulse is palpable.
And we get to see all this, we get to see that Harry sees all three of these incidents, and we also get to see that Hermione is the one that causes him to react. This is a scene that Rowling shows Harry's reactions to each event, and boy is it interesting. (Assuming you are into the shipping aspect, which, considering how mundane and poor the overal plot ended up being, was surely the only genuinely interesting aspect of the books after about book three anyway)
Ginny doesnt get "established" a secondary player in book five, we get told she is suddenly a secondary player. We are told of her prowess, and abilities etc, but we never see them, they are always relayed to teh reader by a third party, describing some instance that happened previously.
Indeed, as mentioned above, Rowling could have swapped Ginny with Hermione in the Department of mysteries bit, have Harry really upset when ginny gets injured, have Harry instinctivly reach back and grab her robes, foreshadow something, but no, Harry focuses only on Hermione.
Considering Rowling supposedly wanted Ginny as Harry's love interest from the very start, there are some very weird choices made, from a writing point of view in that scene. Of course, that is not limited to Harry and ginny, or that one sceen in book five (of course this is not an exception, every book apart from book six , shows Harry and Hermione growing closer), the entire thing has Harry and Hermione growing closer and closer, while Ron grows further away from both. Which as I have said, is a pattern from book one through to seven, with the exception of six, and maybe two, but it is there, growing each time in books one, three, four, five, and seven.
Just an example, from book five, in the final quiditch game of the season, where Ron finally gets over his nerves and has an outstanding game and is a hero, finally not in Harry's shadow, does Hermione see it? Yeah she sees and loves it....oh no, wait, she is off having adventures in the wood with Harry as they get introduced to Grawp. Which is another weird choice, as Hagrid specifically asks Harry for help, Hermione, since she is supposedly Rons main squeeze, planned from the beginning, could have been written to say she'll stay at the quditch match. It would have made sense, she wasnt specifically asked to go along, it would have drawn less suspicion if Umbridge had seen her but not Harry there, than if she had seen neither there, and it would have shown Hermione caring about Ron. But no, see just ups and follows Harry.
Someone mentioned earier "settling". A damning case can be made, simply by quoting the text of these books, you do not need to read between the lines or anything, to say that Hermine settled for Ron because she thought Harry didnt feel that way for her, and Harry settled for Ginny because he thought Hermione loved Ron.
Proof to back this up? Well for example, the scene in the final book where Ron confronts Harry about Hermione? Have a read, Harry can not look Ron in the eyes (a classic sign of someone lieing), as he tells him, very lamely, that he views Hermione as more of a sister and "reckons" Hermione does too, even though he hasnt actually talked to her about it and given her the opportunity to tell him otherwise.
Or when Ron (again with angry, ultimatum making Ron), under the influence of the horocrux (..did someone say "my precious"? could have, blatant rip off that it was) is ready to storm off and directly asks Hermione to chose between him and Harry? This is a pivtal scene. Hermione has to chose between Ron and Harry. And what does Hermione do? Bare in mind that supposedly from the very start rowling intended the pairings of Harry/Ginny and ron/Hermione. What does Hermione, Ron's future wife do when forced to chose between Ron and Harry? she immediately, and I mean immediately chooses harry. Not only that, she throws up a shield charm to seperate her and Harry from Ron.
And I could of course start waxing on about how the most romantic scenes in the book (scenes which Rowlng has since come out and said were "intense" and that at that moment the love thing could have gone "either way") belong to the couple that never made it to paper. Harry and Hermione.
Anyway. Where was I? I've strayed from the point I wanted to make originally, which was that Ginny was a very badly written character, ignored for the first four books, then suddenly "superwitch", powerful and the one the boys wanted, ace quiditch player and better lier than the twins, from book five onwards, all of which was told to us and not shown.
That and the epilogue was terribly written and should never darken the screens.
Bugger all. Another wasted plot point....
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
^Couldn't have said it better...
^Couldn't have said it better...
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
Here's something that matters: Despite his often-adolescent nature, Ron comes from a good family and they've rubbed off on him in some important ways. His good nature eventually wins out. And perhaps more importantly, considering Hermione's background and her own difficulties, they don't give a fig about class background and embrace Muggle-born.
No. Bit players would be the Creeveys, or the two older Weasley brothers, or Professor Flitwick. Neville, Luna, and Ginny are second-tier characters - like Lupin, Tonks, Mad-Eye, Hagrid, and the Weasley twins - which means they get ocassional moments (sometimes extended moments) of spotlight and ocassionally steal a scene. After all, it was Neville, not Harry, who got the Crowning Moment of Aweseome at the Battle of Hogwarts. And those three in particular form a "secondary trio."
Love is rarely if ever "appropriate." They both faced the fire together, and it's a perfectly legitimate possibility.
Eww, "good breeding" - what is this, the 1600s?
Also, you forget this is a racist, classist society Hermione's stepped into, and a Muggle-born like her is a step down from "pureblood" families - so in fact, your comment about "good breeding" doesn't hold true in-universe. But you know who's somebody that doesn't care about that? Yeah... the Weasleys.
"a sloth, a pig, and a fool with the emotional range of a teaspoon" - yep, sounds like your average teenager trying to adjust to hormones and puberty.
Anyway, I think you're confusing film Hermione with book Hermione, who was clearly not Emma Watson, or at least not at the beginning. Hermione's a case of somebody who grows into her beauty - she wasn't at first this stunning ideal of humanity, but a cute if fairly average girl with buck teeth. It's not until Goblet of Fire that this starts to change, and her inner beauty is always more important.
Methinks you don't care much for Ginny Weasley. Bear in mind she was established from the outset as somebody very special, a seventh child and the first female in the Weasley clan in a very long time.
Anyway, you don't need to convince me as far as the Department of Mysteries scene, I preferred the idea of Harry and Hermione. I think that was the more natural and organic pairing as Rowling was writing and it comes through at times. Most of that stuff can be read as Harry and Hermione just being really close friends, but...
My point in bringing it up is it's that scene that firmly establishes Ginny as an important player going forward.
A thought about the scene of Ron storming off though. You could read it as Hermione choosing Harry; however, Ron was the one forcing her to make a choice, and it's just as possible she was fed up with him at that point and was more focused on the task at hand. Not so much as choosing Harry as not being interested in the ridiculous machismo and would rather save the world.
Either way, Harry/Hermione is not the story Rowling chose to tell, the Epilogue's not that bad, and it doesn't actually change anything anyway. If I want primary male/primary female to end up together, there's plenty out there, including Avatar:TLA.
I was probably a bit harsh. But I honestly find it hard to see anything likeable about the poor blokeIf Hermione and Ron hadn't been Harry's friends, then the choice of Ron would be exceedingly arbitrary.
Here's something that matters: Despite his often-adolescent nature, Ron comes from a good family and they've rubbed off on him in some important ways. His good nature eventually wins out. And perhaps more importantly, considering Hermione's background and her own difficulties, they don't give a fig about class background and embrace Muggle-born.
"Secondary" being the key. She's NOT part of the "Golden Trio". She's a bit player in the background, like Neville, Luna, et al.
No. Bit players would be the Creeveys, or the two older Weasley brothers, or Professor Flitwick. Neville, Luna, and Ginny are second-tier characters - like Lupin, Tonks, Mad-Eye, Hagrid, and the Weasley twins - which means they get ocassional moments (sometimes extended moments) of spotlight and ocassionally steal a scene. After all, it was Neville, not Harry, who got the Crowning Moment of Aweseome at the Battle of Hogwarts. And those three in particular form a "secondary trio."
Love is rarely if ever "appropriate." They both faced the fire together, and it's a perfectly legitimate possibility.
Eww, "good breeding" - what is this, the 1600s?
Also, you forget this is a racist, classist society Hermione's stepped into, and a Muggle-born like her is a step down from "pureblood" families - so in fact, your comment about "good breeding" doesn't hold true in-universe. But you know who's somebody that doesn't care about that? Yeah... the Weasleys.
"a sloth, a pig, and a fool with the emotional range of a teaspoon" - yep, sounds like your average teenager trying to adjust to hormones and puberty.
Anyway, I think you're confusing film Hermione with book Hermione, who was clearly not Emma Watson, or at least not at the beginning. Hermione's a case of somebody who grows into her beauty - she wasn't at first this stunning ideal of humanity, but a cute if fairly average girl with buck teeth. It's not until Goblet of Fire that this starts to change, and her inner beauty is always more important.
Methinks you don't care much for Ginny Weasley. Bear in mind she was established from the outset as somebody very special, a seventh child and the first female in the Weasley clan in a very long time.Anyway, you don't need to convince me as far as the Department of Mysteries scene, I preferred the idea of Harry and Hermione. I think that was the more natural and organic pairing as Rowling was writing and it comes through at times. Most of that stuff can be read as Harry and Hermione just being really close friends, but...
My point in bringing it up is it's that scene that firmly establishes Ginny as an important player going forward.
A thought about the scene of Ron storming off though. You could read it as Hermione choosing Harry; however, Ron was the one forcing her to make a choice, and it's just as possible she was fed up with him at that point and was more focused on the task at hand. Not so much as choosing Harry as not being interested in the ridiculous machismo and would rather save the world.
Either way, Harry/Hermione is not the story Rowling chose to tell, the Epilogue's not that bad, and it doesn't actually change anything anyway. If I want primary male/primary female to end up together, there's plenty out there, including Avatar:TLA.
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
The pictures look good, but what will really make or break the Epilogue is the acting, and in particular how they sound when they speak. Now, generally I don't think voices change all that much from your late teens to late thirties, but in order to convey the passage of time, there should be some difference in pitch to their voices (perhaps digitally altered?)
The pictures look good, but what will really make or break the Epilogue is the acting, and in particular how they sound when they speak. Now, generally I don't think voices change all that much from your late teens to late thirties, but in order to convey the passage of time, there should be some difference in pitch to their voices (perhaps digitally altered?)
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
er, what? Nobody gets married or has kids in the last pages before the epilogue. How do those things constitute "no change" for the characters and their lives?!
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH!
NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH!
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
Rowling's just spelling things out at that point and giving us details - how many kids, the names of them, etc, and some information on the fates of more secondary characters. The primary things - the things people are up in arms about - were already there, just not detailed.
"The female of the species is more deadly than the male."
er, what? Nobody gets married or has kids in the last pages before the epilogue. How do those things constitute "no change" for the characters and their lives?!
Rowling's just spelling things out at that point and giving us details - how many kids, the names of them, etc, and some information on the fates of more secondary characters. The primary things - the things people are up in arms about - were already there, just not detailed.
"The female of the species is more deadly than the male."
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
I can't really speak to the books, but from a movie perspective, I do wish Harry & Hermione had wound up together. Nothing against Ron/Hermione, I just think that movie Ginny has zero screen presence. (Leave it to Warner Bros. to cast the only non-adorable redhead in the entire British Isles.)
As for why Hermione would fall for someone like Ron, I've narrowed it down to one of 2 reasons:
1.) She's less attracted to him than she is to the Weasley family and the overall love & stability there. I've known girls IRL who end up with guys that weren't right for them simply because they liked becoming an almost in-law of his family.
2.) Hermione, as the ultimate know-it-all, sees Ron as the ultimate fixer-upper. She's just waiting for the right moment to ply him with enough butter beers to send him off to Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.
I can't really speak to the books, but from a movie perspective, I do wish Harry & Hermione had wound up together. Nothing against Ron/Hermione, I just think that movie Ginny has zero screen presence. (Leave it to Warner Bros. to cast the only non-adorable redhead in the entire British Isles.)
As for why Hermione would fall for someone like Ron, I've narrowed it down to one of 2 reasons:
1.) She's less attracted to him than she is to the Weasley family and the overall love & stability there. I've known girls IRL who end up with guys that weren't right for them simply because they liked becoming an almost in-law of his family.
2.) Hermione, as the ultimate know-it-all, sees Ron as the ultimate fixer-upper. She's just waiting for the right moment to ply him with enough butter beers to send him off to Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
It also helps that Emma Watson has much better chemistry with Dan Radcliffe than Rupert Grint (though I'll grant I haven't seen the Sixth Movie yet).
It also helps that Emma Watson has much better chemistry with Dan Radcliffe than Rupert Grint (though I'll grant I haven't seen the Sixth Movie yet).
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
My theory is that they are in love.
My theory is that they are in love.
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
Why is it so hard for people to accept she just likes Ron.
She's liked him ever since she first opened the train cabin door. It's there--clearly spelled out in the book and the film.
And, as I've pointed out before, it was Ron and not Harry that ultimately saved her from the Troll. Also, in every subsequent situation she was put in peril, (whether danger or Malfoy picking on her) it was Ron who first jumped to her defense. It's not rocket science.
Why is it so hard for people to accept she just likes Ron.
She's liked him ever since she first opened the train cabin door. It's there--clearly spelled out in the book and the film.
And, as I've pointed out before, it was Ron and not Harry that ultimately saved her from the Troll. Also, in every subsequent situation she was put in peril, (whether danger or Malfoy picking on her) it was Ron who first jumped to her defense. It's not rocket science.
kitsune
Captain
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
How about in Azkaban when Harry wrapped himself around Hermione to protect her from Lupin's werewolf form? Or came to the defense of both her and Ron during the Hogsmeade excursion?
Eh? Hermione didn't think much of Ron on their first encounter. He couldn't get his spell to work (possibly because Scabbers wasn't a real rat), and he had a smudge on his nose.
Ron did cast the levitation charm, but I fail to see how his actions were any less significant than Harry's. Harry certainly succeeded in distracting the troll, after all.
When Malfoy called Hermione a mudblood in Chamber of Secrets, Harry didn't know what the term meant--so it would've been silly for him to take action in that instance.
How about in Azkaban when Harry wrapped himself around Hermione to protect her from Lupin's werewolf form? Or came to the defense of both her and Ron during the Hogsmeade excursion?
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
This thread makes it obvious that the romantic subplot (subplots?) were poorly developed in the Harry Potter books, in part due to the author changing her mind and retconing a number of events.
Understandably, the readers who were emotionally invested in the characters and the previously developed relationships were disappointed by the retcons.
This thread makes it obvious that the romantic subplot (subplots?) were poorly developed in the Harry Potter books, in part due to the author changing her mind and retconing a number of events.
Understandably, the readers who were emotionally invested in the characters and the previously developed relationships were disappointed by the retcons.
kitsune
Captain
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
Ron + Ginny might get the book banned from school libraries
kitsune
Captain
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
Only in backwards places.
Re: Oh, for Pete's Sake: They're actually filming the Potter 7 epilogu
These so called "shippers" are a strange breed.
They usually have unfulfilled romantic desires and transpose these onto an idealized pairing in popular tv shows or books.
When the hoped-for coupling does not occur or, worse, the surrogate object of their desire ends up with somebody whom, in their eyes is completely wrong(see the end of VOY for an example of thousands of TREKBBS "shippers" throwing themselves onto their ceremonial swords in grief), they usually react in over exaggerated umbridge and disgust.
Oh and most are fourteen year old girls.
These so called "shippers" are a strange breed.
They usually have unfulfilled romantic desires and transpose these onto an idealized pairing in popular tv shows or books.
When the hoped-for coupling does not occur or, worse, the surrogate object of their desire ends up with somebody whom, in their eyes is completely wrong(see the end of VOY for an example of thousands of TREKBBS "shippers" throwing themselves onto their ceremonial swords in grief), they usually react in over exaggerated umbridge and disgust.
Oh and most are fourteen year old girls.