Right. But it's their preferred way of education. They mentioned it in the movie. Anij said something about 20 years of apprenticeship. I don't think they would have it any other way.
Ocampa in Starfleet
- Thread starter alpha_leonis
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The Ba'ku and races that have a lifespan similar to humans would be subjected to the same requirements.
When it comes to the Ocampa though, it's not fair to keep them in the Academy for 4 years like everyone else because they would spend almost half of their life time in the Academy.
I don't think you can expect something like that out of them, unless they would undergo a drastically different program that would allow SF to evaluate them during those 4 years and see who's good enough for command material at the end, and make some sort of a way for them to advance in rank in the span of 3 or 4 years through specialized assignments and whatnot.
I mean, come on, you must have some kind of leniency in this and SF can do it.
Data graduated from the Academy like everyone else because he didn't have problems with his lifespan.
For all they knew back then, Data would have gone on essentially forever giving him more than enough time to complete the standard Academy course like everyone else (despite his learning abilities).
An Ocampa following a traditional program would be LONG dead before they hit a rank of Lt.
Sorry, doesn't work for them.
And as I said, you can't see things singularly from a human perspective because we aren't talking about humans but Ocampa who live normally for 9 years tops.
Also I'm pretty sure it's possible that SF makes exceptions in some cases for humans who are born with equally fast ability to learn.
When it comes to the Ocampa though, it's not fair to keep them in the Academy for 4 years like everyone else because they would spend almost half of their life time in the Academy.
I don't think you can expect something like that out of them, unless they would undergo a drastically different program that would allow SF to evaluate them during those 4 years and see who's good enough for command material at the end, and make some sort of a way for them to advance in rank in the span of 3 or 4 years through specialized assignments and whatnot.
I mean, come on, you must have some kind of leniency in this and SF can do it.
Data graduated from the Academy like everyone else because he didn't have problems with his lifespan.
For all they knew back then, Data would have gone on essentially forever giving him more than enough time to complete the standard Academy course like everyone else (despite his learning abilities).
An Ocampa following a traditional program would be LONG dead before they hit a rank of Lt.
Sorry, doesn't work for them.
And as I said, you can't see things singularly from a human perspective because we aren't talking about humans but Ocampa who live normally for 9 years tops.
Also I'm pretty sure it's possible that SF makes exceptions in some cases for humans who are born with equally fast ability to learn.
The thing is, Starfleet should have had this sorted out a long time ago anyway. It's rather implausible that in the preceding 200 years of the organization's history, they wouldn't have run into officer hopefuls who have unique and headache-inducing physiologies from the human point of view, but also come with important attributes to offer.
Vulcans learn fast, and we have no particular reason to think that any of them spent the full four years at the Academy (even Tuvok's history is fuzzy enough in this respect). Full telepaths might be even faster learners, and superior commanders or followers in other ways as well. Take any Trek alien species that isn't a standard human carbon copy, postulate that he, she or it would join Starfleet, and see unique problems and opportunities emerge. Starfleet would be extremely foolish not to make the effort to adapt.
Since we have mainly seen racially segregated starships so far, it wouldn't be that much of a problem to have separate career paths for the truly incompatible, either. For all we know, there's a whole separate curriculum for them, unique and specific service postings where their abilities are of the most use, and entire branches of Starfleet where no human can serve due to the natural inferiority of that species.
It's still equally possible that the segregation we see is the result of a humans-only policy in Starfleet, of course. It just shouldn't be that way - both because humans would have mental hangups about segregation due to their own history, and because Starfleet would be handicapped by such a policy.
Timo Saloniemi
Vulcans learn fast, and we have no particular reason to think that any of them spent the full four years at the Academy (even Tuvok's history is fuzzy enough in this respect). Full telepaths might be even faster learners, and superior commanders or followers in other ways as well. Take any Trek alien species that isn't a standard human carbon copy, postulate that he, she or it would join Starfleet, and see unique problems and opportunities emerge. Starfleet would be extremely foolish not to make the effort to adapt.
Since we have mainly seen racially segregated starships so far, it wouldn't be that much of a problem to have separate career paths for the truly incompatible, either. For all we know, there's a whole separate curriculum for them, unique and specific service postings where their abilities are of the most use, and entire branches of Starfleet where no human can serve due to the natural inferiority of that species.
It's still equally possible that the segregation we see is the result of a humans-only policy in Starfleet, of course. It just shouldn't be that way - both because humans would have mental hangups about segregation due to their own history, and because Starfleet would be handicapped by such a policy.
Timo Saloniemi
I suggest, if a perception of Starfleet racial segregation exists, it's because it's a budget-limited human-made TV show about, ultimately, us; and not so much to do with some hidden Starfleet agenda of segregation. Further, phrases like "natural inferiority of species" don't quite sound Starfleet either. (Perhaps something like "physical tolerances" would be better)? I'll grant that the shows appear human-centric, but that is not what the spirit of the show is about. The 60's had a simpler kind of show, the 00's another. Tomorrow, who can say.
Unless Timo, you're talking about a special Ocampa branch to Starfleet? Like buffalo soldiers?
Further, in my opinion it doesn't automatically follow that Starfleet would have to
accommodate species who could not meet the training requirements of their institution, (unless they had the help of technology or some other means). The show has indicated time and again that being a Starfleet officer is a singular distinction, and one they are not likely to bandy about. Geordi could be a blind engineer. But without the visor--would he have been accepted? Of course, the absence of wheelchair-bound crew does not mean they didn't exist. I guess the issue just never came up.
The standard requirement is four years; if an Ocampa can't make that kind of commitment, I see no reason why Starfleet must accommodate them. None at all. Certainly it's a good issue for debate; but in my opinion any entitlement should not be assumed. Acceptance and graduation from the Academy is a privilege, not a right.
Now, I will not bet that some resourceful Ocampa couldn't fight his way through the system and emerge victorious. I'm just saying they shouldn't expect it on a silver platter just because they demand special accomodation.
Personally I realize an Ocampa could contribute quite a lot to Starfleet. But an entitlement to special dispensation, because of race? I don't recognize the entitlement. And again, Starfleet officers undergo rigorous, total training in academics, survival, environments, tactics, and psychological profiling (and who knows what else, really). It's not about passing a final exam; it's about training one's body and reflexes and accumulating experiences; while Ocampa may learn quickly, they cannot accumulate experience any faster than any other four year cadet.
But I would like to see the character of the Ocampa who could prove me wrong.
Thanks for letting me vent my opinion. Hope I don't step on the toes of those who disagree. This is a fascinating topic!
One more point: as Seven of Nine proved, one can still serve as a crew member (and senior staff member) on a Starfleet ship if the Captain wants you. You're just not an officer but you can probably still give orders.
Unless Timo, you're talking about a special Ocampa branch to Starfleet? Like buffalo soldiers?
Further, in my opinion it doesn't automatically follow that Starfleet would have to
accommodate species who could not meet the training requirements of their institution, (unless they had the help of technology or some other means). The show has indicated time and again that being a Starfleet officer is a singular distinction, and one they are not likely to bandy about. Geordi could be a blind engineer. But without the visor--would he have been accepted? Of course, the absence of wheelchair-bound crew does not mean they didn't exist. I guess the issue just never came up.
The standard requirement is four years; if an Ocampa can't make that kind of commitment, I see no reason why Starfleet must accommodate them. None at all. Certainly it's a good issue for debate; but in my opinion any entitlement should not be assumed. Acceptance and graduation from the Academy is a privilege, not a right.
Now, I will not bet that some resourceful Ocampa couldn't fight his way through the system and emerge victorious. I'm just saying they shouldn't expect it on a silver platter just because they demand special accomodation.
Personally I realize an Ocampa could contribute quite a lot to Starfleet. But an entitlement to special dispensation, because of race? I don't recognize the entitlement. And again, Starfleet officers undergo rigorous, total training in academics, survival, environments, tactics, and psychological profiling (and who knows what else, really). It's not about passing a final exam; it's about training one's body and reflexes and accumulating experiences; while Ocampa may learn quickly, they cannot accumulate experience any faster than any other four year cadet.
But I would like to see the character of the Ocampa who could prove me wrong.
Thanks for letting me vent my opinion. Hope I don't step on the toes of those who disagree. This is a fascinating topic!
One more point: as Seven of Nine proved, one can still serve as a crew member (and senior staff member) on a Starfleet ship if the Captain wants you. You're just not an officer but you can probably still give orders.
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Well said and very on point.I suggest, if a perception of Starfleet racial segregation exists, it's because it's a budget-limited human-made TV show about, ultimately, us; and not so much to do with some hidden Starfleet agenda of segregation. Further, phrases like "natural inferiority of species" don't quite sound Starfleet either. (Perhaps something like "physical tolerances" would be better)? I'll grant that the shows appear human-centric, but that is not what the spirit of the show is about. The 60's had a simpler kind of show, the 00's another. Tomorrow, who can say.
Unless Timo, you're talking about a special Ocampa branch to Starfleet? Like buffalo soldiers?
Further, in my opinion it doesn't automatically follow that Starfleet would have to
accommodate species who could not meet the training requirements of their institution, (unless they had the help of technology or some other means). The show has indicated time and again that being a Starfleet officer is a singular distinction, and one they are not likely to bandy about. Geordi could be a blind engineer. But without the visor--would he have been accepted? Of course, the absence of wheelchair-bound crew does not mean they didn't exist. I guess the issue just never came up.
The standard requirement is four years; if an Ocampa can't make that kind of commitment, I see no reason why Starfleet must accommodate them. None at all. Certainly it's a good issue for debate; but in my opinion any entitlement should not be assumed. Acceptance and graduation from the Academy is a privilege, not a right.
Now, I will not bet that some resourceful Ocampa couldn't fight his way through the system and emerge victorious. I'm just saying they shouldn't expect it on a silver platter just because they demand special accomodation.
Personally I realize an Ocampa could contribute quite a lot to Starfleet. But an entitlement to special dispensation, because of race? I don't recognize the entitlement. And again, Starfleet officers undergo rigorous, total training in academics, survival, environments, tactics, and psychological profiling (and who knows what else, really). It's not about passing a final exam; it's about training one's body and reflexes and accumulating experiences; while Ocampa may learn quickly, they cannot accumulate experience any faster than any other four year cadet.
But I would like to see the character of the Ocampa who could prove me wrong.
Thanks for letting me vent my opinion. Hope I don't step on the toes of those who disagree. This is a fascinating topic!
A minor quibble:
I'd posit they can do exactly that. After all, they aren't a bunch of human wunderkinds with exceptionally good learning skills for a human - they are a species that fully matures, breeds, and dies within the timespan of nine years.
How they do it is nice enough a mystery. Somehow, these fast-burning little candles must simply gather more from each minute spent here than the average humanoid does - and not just facts and trivia, but crucial "building blocks of life" as well. The end result is an experienced and well-adapted member of the Ocampa society, and it's difficult to see how the result could not be a well-adapted member of the Federation society as well.
Now, it is quite possible that the Ocampa even at maturity are a "childish" people in comparison with those of us who have to spend ten times the length of time here. Perhaps they once used to live longer lives, and something the Caretaker did to them took away most of that, leaving them immature even at deathbed? But we have seen nothing to indicate that adult Ocampa would be immature, or lacking in life experience. Granted that we only followed Kes and briefly glimpsed at the unfortunately dogma-ridden lives of her kin. But Kes was quick to adapt to the ways of Starfleet, and a keen observer of the human or Vulcan psyche after very short contact. And that without fellow fast-living Ocampa to offer her fast-paced stimuli.
In that sense, I'd still think that yes, Starfleet would do well to found a special Ocampa branch. Not necessarily like buffalo soldiers, but more like the bunch of well-educated noblemen that was separately trained to lead the ignorant masses in armies of the past. Only this time their "superiority by breeding" would be for real.
Granted that Starfleet (or the human element of it at any rate) would have problems with the language involved. But one can't have equality by treating everybody the same when everybody is not born equal - as humans and Vulcans and Ocampa most definitely aren't.
Timo Saloniemi
I'd posit they can do exactly that. After all, they aren't a bunch of human wunderkinds with exceptionally good learning skills for a human - they are a species that fully matures, breeds, and dies within the timespan of nine years.
How they do it is nice enough a mystery. Somehow, these fast-burning little candles must simply gather more from each minute spent here than the average humanoid does - and not just facts and trivia, but crucial "building blocks of life" as well. The end result is an experienced and well-adapted member of the Ocampa society, and it's difficult to see how the result could not be a well-adapted member of the Federation society as well.
Now, it is quite possible that the Ocampa even at maturity are a "childish" people in comparison with those of us who have to spend ten times the length of time here. Perhaps they once used to live longer lives, and something the Caretaker did to them took away most of that, leaving them immature even at deathbed? But we have seen nothing to indicate that adult Ocampa would be immature, or lacking in life experience. Granted that we only followed Kes and briefly glimpsed at the unfortunately dogma-ridden lives of her kin. But Kes was quick to adapt to the ways of Starfleet, and a keen observer of the human or Vulcan psyche after very short contact. And that without fellow fast-living Ocampa to offer her fast-paced stimuli.
In that sense, I'd still think that yes, Starfleet would do well to found a special Ocampa branch. Not necessarily like buffalo soldiers, but more like the bunch of well-educated noblemen that was separately trained to lead the ignorant masses in armies of the past. Only this time their "superiority by breeding" would be for real.
Granted that Starfleet (or the human element of it at any rate) would have problems with the language involved. But one can't have equality by treating everybody the same when everybody is not born equal - as humans and Vulcans and Ocampa most definitely aren't.
Timo Saloniemi
Not sure it could work.
If we learn slower than they do, we wouldn't learn much before they died.
The Ocampa would be great Starfleet members.
We can assume that the lifespan issue can be solved. The Ocampa on Suspiria's array lived until they were 20 or more and shortly before the Caretaker died, he downloaded all his knowledge to the Ocampa in the underground city (according to the book "Caretaker" which is based on the script for the episode). With that problem solved, I see no reason why the Ocampa wouldn't be valuable members of Starfleet since they are clever, curious and have the same values as humans and many other Federation species.
Well flip this subject around...Vulcans are long lived when compared to humans, that being said - every Vulcan in Starfleet should probably be assured of reaching Admiral rank because they simply out live and therefore out experience most everyone else.
Or Trills, when one dies, the next host does not assume the rank or role of the prior host.
I think the Ocampa could be valuable additions to starfleet, even if it is in some sort of restricted status - starbase commanders, captains of Ocampan only vessels, or older Ocampans as Captains of front line starfleet ships. There would just have to be accommodations made for their short lives in terms of career track.
Or Trills, when one dies, the next host does not assume the rank or role of the prior host.
I think the Ocampa could be valuable additions to starfleet, even if it is in some sort of restricted status - starbase commanders, captains of Ocampan only vessels, or older Ocampans as Captains of front line starfleet ships. There would just have to be accommodations made for their short lives in terms of career track.
