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Justtoyourleft said:
^^
I see you felt the same way about the end of the Shadow/Vorlon war. Yes, it does make sense on a certain level but I simply came away feeling there was something missing as well. I can't even say it was a space battle or anything.
I suppose the problem for me was that I just didn't feel that Delenn or Sheridan were at a "level" (whatever that exactly means in this context) at which the Shadows or Vorlons would actually listen to them. I think they could have used Sheridan's death on Z'Hadum (not sure about the spelling) better here. Maybe if that had figured in more heavily or had it been made more clear that this WAS something that changed Sheridan in a way other than predefining his life span or making him more determined.
It's really hard to say exactly.
For me, personally, the end of DS9 worked better because
I can see why Odo would be in a position to influence the female founder - from their perspective, he's still one of them, they still basically want him back more than anything else.
I know there are people who don't feel this way but I suppose whether it's the end of the Shadow/Vorlon war on B5 or the end of DS9, it's really subjective.
I agree 100%. I think that was the problem. Why would the Vorlons and Shadows listen to Sheridan and Delenn? it's not believable.
DS9, on the other hand, makes sense because
Like you said, Odo is a Founder so the Female Changeling would listen to him. She respects him. If it was Bashir instead of Odo, the Founder wouldn't even listen to him.
I disagree. The Shadows and Vorlons listened to Sheridan and Delenn for a few reasons:
1.) Lorien was there, and they honor and respect what he represents to them. Lorien did not interfere so much as he helped set the table. With him aiding to a certain extent, is it not logical that the Vorlons and Shadows would give weight to what Sheridan & Delenn said?
2.) The other, younger races proved that they were devoted to the cause, to the point that two separate ships of different races sacrificed themselves to save the ship Sheridan & Delenn were on. Of course the V&S had lost sight of their original goal, had forgotten who they wee and what they wanted. But the younger races proved to the V&S that they would not follow anyone.
Having this conflict resolved so to speak with yet another cataclysmic and titanic battle... would be merely that - the same way we have seen so many stories ended before. This was always intended to be a departure from that typical sort of climax.
^^
I don't know. I see it theoretically but perceived something different on screen. That's really what it comes down to for me. *shrugs* I suppose it's just one of these things were you either like it or you don't. Again, I really think my problem is not the logic behind it but the way it was portrayed.
That's a very good point. No matter how creative , or even different, an idea may be... it doesn't necessarily follow that it translates well to the screen.
I really liked JMS' idea for the conclusion of the Shadow War, but as it was realized it just didn't work.
(1) There just wasn't enough sacrifice on the part of our characters to warrant ending this epic conflict which had become central to the series. Like another poster said, Sheridan's death and resurrection could have been better used here.
(2) It all just ended too early. JMS spent three years building up the Shadow/Vorlon Conflict. It deserved a full season for proper resolution, IMHO. I've heard other users blame the rushed nature of the year on what seemed to be the show's impending cancellation, but it seems from the Lurker's Guide that JMS followed his original plan closely all along concerning the War. I don't know. Perhaps if the Shadow War and the Earth-Babylon 5 conflict had some sort of intertwining resolution it would have worked better. Instead the huge conflict was tied up, and the other one which seems awfully small in comparison got 12 episodes for a proper resolution.
^^
But from what I've read in a recent threat that I can't quite remember, JMS didn't change his plans all that much-- he just accelerated the last four episodes of the season from season 5 to 4, eliminating some stand alones in the process.
Hirogen Alpha said:
^^
But from what I've read in a recent threat that I can't quite remember, JMS didn't change his plans all that much-- he just accelerated the last four episodes of the season from season 5 to 4, eliminating some stand alones in the process.
^^
That's what I thought. Damn. I think that's my biggest problem with B5, though I've only seen up to 4.20. Maybe season 5 will turn out to be amazing, and in retrospect season 4 will have been a really good choice.
...Yeah, with Byron and all that, fat chance, I know, I know...
I'm not saying that the story would have ended with different specifics. Just that he was under such duress that it really affected him badly. jms' quote form the Lurker's Guide:
Truth: I go back and forth. The "Into the Fire" thing, for instance... it would've likely been a two-part episode, but it still would've ended up exactly where it ended up. A few more big explosions, but I wonder also if that really adds anything past a certain point.
From a production standpoing, since "Fire" darn near killed us in the CGI department, it's probably a darned good thing it DIDN'T go for 2 eps. That puppy had something around 120 or 140 EFX shots.
Overall, I'm actually quite happy with how this season is going, in terms of the intensity of the arc and the emotions and incidents. Parts would've been a bit more laid-back if I had decided not to cover my bets on renewal, and maybe the situation has worked out to the best (again the ABA principle, Art By Accident).
So I dunno...all I know is what's in the episodes this season, and it's pretty cool overall....
That bears out what you all have been saying, but it also shows that they were under great strain. It's hard to say what effect a 5th season certainty would have had. Suffice it to say that that are still incredible events and story to come in S4.
^^
Okay, that makes a little more sense. And makes me hate the rushed circumstances even more.
Still, I'd imagine Into the Fire as the season finale, or else totally re-tool both the storylines so they end at the same time. But just my two cents.
I wouldn't have wanted both storylines to end at the same time. That would have detracted from the power of each. The Shadow War had the overwhelming and awesome might of civilizations pulling our strings and us fighting against that. The Earth Civil War had ironically the same fighting against those who would pull our strings only this time... it was some of our own people. While the former had the draw of an epic struggle the latter had the much more personal effect and the consequences afterwards.
Therein is the crux of the series. Our future is determined by the choices we make... and the consequences we have to suffer because of those choices.
"The future is always changing. We create the future, with our words, our deeds, and with our beliefs.
Hirogen Alpha said:
^^
That's what I thought. Damn. I think that's my biggest problem with B5, though I've only seen up to 4.20. Maybe season 5 will turn out to be amazing, and in retrospect season 4 will have been a really good choice.
...Yeah, with Byron and all that, fat chance, I know, I know...
Intersections of Real Time would've been the fourth season finale, but I think it's better that JMS finished the Shadow war with fewer space battles, but I did enjoyed the final eight eps. of season four alot well minus the season finale, I wasn't totality thrilled with the finale and it was really rushed since it was made after the show was renewed for the fifth season.
^^
To each his own. I don't know-- with all the shadow tech Earth Dome was getting their hands on, I expected them to have more to do with the final battle with the Shadows. Maybe even have them turn a la the Cardassians against the Dominion in the DS9 finale. But I'm just throwing stuff out there. And I've only seen most of the series ONCE, so I'm hardly an expert on everything... yet.
Neroon said:
I wouldn't have wanted both storylines to end at the same time. That would have detracted from the power of each. The Shadow War had the overwhelming and awesome might of civilizations pulling our strings and us fighting against that. The Earth Civil War had ironically the same fighting against those who would pull our strings only this time... it was some of our own people. While the former had the draw of an epic struggle the latter had the much more personal effect and the consequences afterwards.
Therein is the crux of the series. Our future is determined by the choices we make... and the consequences we have to suffer because of those choices.
"The future is always changing. We create the future, with our words, our deeds, and with our beliefs.
I agree that would've complicated the series abit too much and I thought the fourth season was neated divided up between the three storylines the Shadow war, the Minbari civil war and the Earth civil war.
It's kind of hard to justify a conventional "spoiler warning" with a series that's been off air for so long. But Tom and others I am sure, are working their way through the series. With that intense association to an arc, the show is best enjoyed if you go into it fresh. It's not ruined if you learn something ahead of time - case in point with a late S5 title - but I think it's much more fun NOT knowing.
^ Well, in the DS9 forum, we have a pretty long tradition of going out of our way not to spoil people if they are new to a show - even to DS9! It started back when the DS9 DVDs were coming out a few years ago...and it's just become sort of the norm in here.
Yeah...it's technically not in the board rules and I'm not gonna come down on anyone for doing it...but we've always done it in this forum as a courtesy. You have to remember that the regs in here are pretty accommodating folks. That's why my entire job consists of pinning and unpinning threads, after all.
