Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Continuing Arc
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Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
I hope it's "beginnings".
I hope it's "beginnings".
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
So I guess this thread is going to be locked soon eh?
So I guess this thread is going to be locked soon eh?
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
Thanks guys for all your comments. It was fun!
Thanks guys for all your comments. It was fun!
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
Yep. This had more of a hopeful ending.
Yep. This had more of a hopeful ending.
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
Did I tell y'all about the joke that the moderator and audience played on JMS at the TLT panel in San Diego? Joe Nazzaro (long-time B5 scribe and interviewer) was the moderator and he wanted to let JMS know that we all wanted to show our support for his artistic vision. When he asked for a show of hands, the first several rows raised our hands...with sock puppets on them. Then when he checked with the actors, they raised their sock-puppeted hands also. Poor JMS...we give him so much grief.
Jan
Did I tell y'all about the joke that the moderator and audience played on JMS at the TLT panel in San Diego? Joe Nazzaro (long-time B5 scribe and interviewer) was the moderator and he wanted to let JMS know that we all wanted to show our support for his artistic vision. When he asked for a show of hands, the first several rows raised our hands...with sock puppets on them. Then when he checked with the actors, they raised their sock-puppeted hands also. Poor JMS...we give him so much grief.
Jan
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
Or his 'Snow White' play. That's good for the patented JMS 'look', too.
The other joke we played on him was at his autograph session on Sunday. One of the groups standing in line across the hall had a bunch of kids hollaring and whooping when their celeb showed up. Well, we didn't want JMS to not feel welcome so we did the same thing when he arrived, hooting and hollaring and generally giving him a rock star greeting. He blushed and pretended to leave.
Just in case anybody wondered why he doesn't do many conventions each year...
Or his 'Snow White' play. That's good for the patented JMS 'look', too.
The other joke we played on him was at his autograph session on Sunday. One of the groups standing in line across the hall had a bunch of kids hollaring and whooping when their celeb showed up. Well, we didn't want JMS to not feel welcome so we did the same thing when he arrived, hooting and hollaring and generally giving him a rock star greeting. He blushed and pretended to leave.
Just in case anybody wondered why he doesn't do many conventions each year...
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
Moi? Sweet little me? Why Neroon, You know me so well!
Truthfully, though, while I encouraged the pranks, even tried to help instigate a production of JMS's "Snow White (with me as the Mirror-it gets the best lines), I wasn't the originator. And he doesn't run screaming at the sight of me...yet.
Belated happy birthday, Neroon!
Jan
Neroon said:
You being chief sinner in this regard, I am certain.
Moi? Sweet little me? Why Neroon, You know me so well!
Truthfully, though, while I encouraged the pranks, even tried to help instigate a production of JMS's "Snow White (with me as the Mirror-it gets the best lines), I wasn't the originator. And he doesn't run screaming at the sight of me...yet.Belated happy birthday, Neroon!
Jan
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
"Babylon 5: Deadly Relations: Bester Ascendant"
I didn't like this novel as much as the one previous, because it was too short, especially with the last third of the novel, which seems to play lip service to continuity by quickly filling in the blanks but without offering a richer tapestry like Andrew J. Robinson's brilliant "A Stitch in Time."
Before I start offering my grievances, I should not that the first two thirds of the book are fantastic, though paced slower than "The Birth of the Psi Corps." I had read from Neroon (IIRC) that book three of the trilogy actually makes the reader root for Bester, but I'd go one further and say that you're rooting for him in this book. Bester does terrible, evil things, but for a cause, and furthermore, his position as a Psi Cop is partially predetermined by events outside of his control. I especially like the part in the book where Bester chases a blip through Paris (a precursor to the climax of book three I've seen mentioned?), fails, and has to face the consequences.
Another scene that is very, very riveting is his final confrontation with Stephen Baxter (I think that's the name--he's the psi corp agent turned rogues who leads the resistance, a carry over from book one). Bester won't face the truth, and it costs him the use of his hand. Filled in the blank and offered a very compelling scene at the same time.
The last third of the book fills in the blanks, too, but doesn't offer as many compelling pieces. We meet Lyta as she interns with the Psi Cops, but she isn't in the book long enough for us to get any further insight into her decision to go into commercial work--she may as well have been any other teep and simply died. We get a glimpse into Bester's marriage that is mentioned a few times on the show, but nothing beyond what we could have pieced together already. We learn a little bit more about Bester turning against the EarthGov forces controlled by Clark, but even that thread isn't developed much further than what the show made us aware of. Lastly, there's a nice bit of continuity between the character of Donne (from "The Shadow Within"), but her appearance is so brief that it's more of a nod to the reader than anything substantial. Finally, we see a *bit* more of Bester and Byron, but that arc is shortened to less than twenty pages, and almost feels like it doesn't belong at all besides as another nod to readers. We don't learn anything further about their relationship, and besides a note by Bester that brought a chuckle to me (he thinks that a smile from Byron says more than an eloquent speech could--which brought me to exclaim, thank goodness a smile sufficed! ) it doesn't amount to anything, either.
All those grievances aside, the prose is some of the better to grace a Babylon 5 novel (David's is sufficient, but doesn't stand out, and Cavelos' loses my attention quickly) and the first two-thirds of the book are everything I wanted from it. But the last third means it misses the mark by a little bit.
Grade: B+
"Babylon 5: Deadly Relations: Bester Ascendant"
I didn't like this novel as much as the one previous, because it was too short, especially with the last third of the novel, which seems to play lip service to continuity by quickly filling in the blanks but without offering a richer tapestry like Andrew J. Robinson's brilliant "A Stitch in Time."
Before I start offering my grievances, I should not that the first two thirds of the book are fantastic, though paced slower than "The Birth of the Psi Corps." I had read from Neroon (IIRC) that book three of the trilogy actually makes the reader root for Bester, but I'd go one further and say that you're rooting for him in this book. Bester does terrible, evil things, but for a cause, and furthermore, his position as a Psi Cop is partially predetermined by events outside of his control. I especially like the part in the book where Bester chases a blip through Paris (a precursor to the climax of book three I've seen mentioned?), fails, and has to face the consequences.
Another scene that is very, very riveting is his final confrontation with Stephen Baxter (I think that's the name--he's the psi corp agent turned rogues who leads the resistance, a carry over from book one). Bester won't face the truth, and it costs him the use of his hand. Filled in the blank and offered a very compelling scene at the same time.
The last third of the book fills in the blanks, too, but doesn't offer as many compelling pieces. We meet Lyta as she interns with the Psi Cops, but she isn't in the book long enough for us to get any further insight into her decision to go into commercial work--she may as well have been any other teep and simply died. We get a glimpse into Bester's marriage that is mentioned a few times on the show, but nothing beyond what we could have pieced together already. We learn a little bit more about Bester turning against the EarthGov forces controlled by Clark, but even that thread isn't developed much further than what the show made us aware of. Lastly, there's a nice bit of continuity between the character of Donne (from "The Shadow Within"), but her appearance is so brief that it's more of a nod to the reader than anything substantial. Finally, we see a *bit* more of Bester and Byron, but that arc is shortened to less than twenty pages, and almost feels like it doesn't belong at all besides as another nod to readers. We don't learn anything further about their relationship, and besides a note by Bester that brought a chuckle to me (he thinks that a smile from Byron says more than an eloquent speech could--which brought me to exclaim, thank goodness a smile sufficed!
) it doesn't amount to anything, either.All those grievances aside, the prose is some of the better to grace a Babylon 5 novel (David's is sufficient, but doesn't stand out, and Cavelos' loses my attention quickly) and the first two-thirds of the book are everything I wanted from it. But the last third means it misses the mark by a little bit.
Grade: B+
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
"My great Babylon 5 Re-watch of 2007: Wrap-Up"
It's been a long six months returning to Babylon 5, both that I have seen before and had missed. It's been a lot of fun, though, watching with various Babylon 5 newbies (of which I am, at long last, a member no longer--though I'll never have Jan's encyclopedic knowledge on the subject) the show from beginning to end. A lot of fun. Also, it's been pretty damn tiring. I won't be doing this again for at least another year. Probably two.
Grades, though using my initial responses as a starting point, are not averages.
Babylon 5: The Gathering/Season One - Signs and Portents
MUCH better on second viewing. There are still some problems here, of course. Special effects in some episodes (though, not all) are embarrassing. Richard Compton seems to be confused behind the camera (I wasn't surprised to find that he was fired after thirteen episodes), and his direction behind a number of early episodes weakens them. A number of themes are explored here that will be explored in a better fashion later, yet the great number of signs and portents (to shamelessly appropriate the phrase) of things that will come to pass (some, like a comment in The Gathering by Kosh, that I still missed a second go around) are staggering. Although JMS certainly changed his game plan significantly from start to finish, having a plan in the first place raises this season from being a waste.
Furthermore, I like Sinclair. It took him a while to grow on me (initially I, like many others, referred to him as Commander Cardboard), but he did. Mainly, concerning the actor, I think Michael O'Hare wasn't given enough meaty things to do. When he's given a speech about the Battle of the Line in The Gathering or a number of stand-out scenes in And A Sky Full of Stars or a surprisingly good confession to a friend in the otherwise forgettable Infection, he's great, but when he's Mr. Exposition in The Quality of Life and other episodes O'Hare seems bored. I can't fault him for that--I'm bored by these scenes, too--especially in the first season as certain kinks are still being worked out.
I've heard posters say that season one is enjoyable because of the atmosphere, but I don't see it. The Gathering had plenty of atmosphere, but after that I don't think the show was really atmospheric in any interesting way until season three or four. But, prove me wrong, friends.
Grade: B-
Babylon 5: Season Two - The Coming of Shadows
The season starts off with a disappointing whimper-- Points of Departure writes out Sinclair without much fanfare and introduces Sheridan poorly. I have no problem with him being Captain Sunshine, but Boxleitner (and, perhaps, director Janet Greek) don't really figure out what to do with the character right out of the gate. Soon afterwards, however, Boxleitner figures out what he's doing, and the character that is truly fantastic begins to form.
Sheridan turning out, however, doesn't excuse tossing aside Sinclair. As much as I love the novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows, it should be unnecessary. There's no reason O'Hare couldn't have been signed to tell his side of the story for at least some episodes of seasons two and three, IMHO.
I think season two is better than season one. That said, the first three quarters of the season (besides outstanding episodes "Revelations" and "The Coming of Shadows") don't achieve what they should have. There are a lot of concepts that aren't executed as well as they should be. That said, in the last six episodes (starting with "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum") are gangbusters, and a precursor to what the show manages to achieve in season three.
Grade B
Season Three: Point of No Return
This is where everything comes together for Babylon 5. Seasons one and two were still putting the pieces together, dealing with unexpected changes (no Lyta, then, no Sinclar). Seasons four and five were the victims of the doom of impending cancellation, resulting in compressed and then stretched out plots that leave the pacing very uneven between them. The further departures of Claudia Christian and Jason Carter further create a wound that isn't ever fully healed.
Sure, there are a few duds in season three. But that's true for every season of Babylon 5. The difference here, outside of the missteps of Exogenesis and the silly monster of Grey 17 is Missing, is that the rest of the episodes are all above average to excellent. The lowest rating I give to an episode this season is a B+ (and that was for the episodes I mark as not liking, a testament to season three's quality).
Messages from Earth/Point of No Return/Severed Dreams is the undeniable high-water mark of Babylon 5. I've heard from a few other posters lately who left the series after season three, citing its decline. They'd have a hell of a time convincing me that this series was declining in year three. The cast is solid (Jason Carter is a welcome addition), the writing is solid (JMS holds together without too many weak spots despite writing every episode), the effects are their best during the series, and the overall feel is a show that's matured.
Grade: A... bordering on an A+
"My great Babylon 5 Re-watch of 2007: Wrap-Up"
It's been a long six months returning to Babylon 5, both that I have seen before and had missed. It's been a lot of fun, though, watching with various Babylon 5 newbies (of which I am, at long last, a member no longer--though I'll never have Jan's encyclopedic knowledge on the subject) the show from beginning to end. A lot of fun. Also, it's been pretty damn tiring. I won't be doing this again for at least another year. Probably two.
Grades, though using my initial responses as a starting point, are not averages.
Babylon 5: The Gathering/Season One - Signs and Portents
MUCH better on second viewing. There are still some problems here, of course. Special effects in some episodes (though, not all) are embarrassing. Richard Compton seems to be confused behind the camera (I wasn't surprised to find that he was fired after thirteen episodes), and his direction behind a number of early episodes weakens them. A number of themes are explored here that will be explored in a better fashion later, yet the great number of signs and portents (to shamelessly appropriate the phrase) of things that will come to pass (some, like a comment in The Gathering by Kosh, that I still missed a second go around) are staggering. Although JMS certainly changed his game plan significantly from start to finish, having a plan in the first place raises this season from being a waste.
Furthermore, I like Sinclair. It took him a while to grow on me (initially I, like many others, referred to him as Commander Cardboard), but he did. Mainly, concerning the actor, I think Michael O'Hare wasn't given enough meaty things to do. When he's given a speech about the Battle of the Line in The Gathering or a number of stand-out scenes in And A Sky Full of Stars or a surprisingly good confession to a friend in the otherwise forgettable Infection, he's great, but when he's Mr. Exposition in The Quality of Life and other episodes O'Hare seems bored. I can't fault him for that--I'm bored by these scenes, too--especially in the first season as certain kinks are still being worked out.
I've heard posters say that season one is enjoyable because of the atmosphere, but I don't see it. The Gathering had plenty of atmosphere, but after that I don't think the show was really atmospheric in any interesting way until season three or four. But, prove me wrong, friends.
Grade: B-
Babylon 5: Season Two - The Coming of Shadows
The season starts off with a disappointing whimper-- Points of Departure writes out Sinclair without much fanfare and introduces Sheridan poorly. I have no problem with him being Captain Sunshine, but Boxleitner (and, perhaps, director Janet Greek) don't really figure out what to do with the character right out of the gate. Soon afterwards, however, Boxleitner figures out what he's doing, and the character that is truly fantastic begins to form.
Sheridan turning out, however, doesn't excuse tossing aside Sinclair. As much as I love the novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows, it should be unnecessary. There's no reason O'Hare couldn't have been signed to tell his side of the story for at least some episodes of seasons two and three, IMHO.
I think season two is better than season one. That said, the first three quarters of the season (besides outstanding episodes "Revelations" and "The Coming of Shadows") don't achieve what they should have. There are a lot of concepts that aren't executed as well as they should be. That said, in the last six episodes (starting with "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum") are gangbusters, and a precursor to what the show manages to achieve in season three.
Grade B
Season Three: Point of No Return
This is where everything comes together for Babylon 5. Seasons one and two were still putting the pieces together, dealing with unexpected changes (no Lyta, then, no Sinclar). Seasons four and five were the victims of the doom of impending cancellation, resulting in compressed and then stretched out plots that leave the pacing very uneven between them. The further departures of Claudia Christian and Jason Carter further create a wound that isn't ever fully healed.
Sure, there are a few duds in season three. But that's true for every season of Babylon 5. The difference here, outside of the missteps of Exogenesis and the silly monster of Grey 17 is Missing, is that the rest of the episodes are all above average to excellent. The lowest rating I give to an episode this season is a B+ (and that was for the episodes I mark as not liking, a testament to season three's quality).
Messages from Earth/Point of No Return/Severed Dreams is the undeniable high-water mark of Babylon 5. I've heard from a few other posters lately who left the series after season three, citing its decline. They'd have a hell of a time convincing me that this series was declining in year three. The cast is solid (Jason Carter is a welcome addition), the writing is solid (JMS holds together without too many weak spots despite writing every episode), the effects are their best during the series, and the overall feel is a show that's matured.
Grade: A... bordering on an A+
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
Okay, here's the last of it...
Season Four: No Surrender, No Retreat
Season four should have been as good as season three. But it's a victim of pacing. The first six episodes are too slow for my tastes, until they suddenly realize the Shadow War has to be ended by Into The Fire and they abruptly end that storyline. I have little problem with the way the Shadow War is concluded, but it happens in such a rush that it just doesn't work. Watch season three and the Shadow War doesn't look like one that should be over dramatically in six episodes.
The next string of episodes are great, perhaps more consistent than even season three. I have no qualms about the end of the Earth Civil War storyline. It's breakneck pace is perfect. The conclusion is perfect--Rising Star would be an excellent end to the series, with Sleeping in Light as a nice coda. Add to that Thirdspace and In the Beginning and you'd be set, I think. But, beginning with The Deconstruction of Falling Stars, problems start to crop up. But I consider Sleeping in Light to be a season four episode and Deconstruction to be a season five episode, so I'll move onto that...
Grade: B- (first six); A (rest of season)
Season Five: The Wheel of Fire
This is the weakest season of the series, plain and simple. I really don't want to get into it. Suffice it to say, the first 13, despite containg a few gems, are very weak as a whole. The next nine are stronger, but still not as good as seasons three and four. Lennier's betrayal of Sheridan doesn't end up working, and what results as everyone's betrayal of Lyta is just stupid, as I've bemoaned previously. Lochley just isn't a good replacement for Ivanova--the actress isn't as strong, especially when she's without someone like Gary Cole to play against. Not as much to say about this year, except, maybe, Grrr.
Grade: C+
The Movies (Thirdspace, ITB, RoS, LoTR, CtA)
The movies are hit or miss. Thirdspace is a fun standalone with enough pieces of background (Vorlons, Lyta, IPX) to make it worthy of B5. ItB is probably the best of the films, although the strange meeting of Franklin, Sheridan, and G'Kar (which contradicts the undercurrent of unfamiliarity between the characters in season two--IMO) does hurt the ending a little bit. RoS is a disaster--a 30 minute Lost Tale stretched into a 92 minute movie that's incompetently acted, directed, and written. Ian McShane is quickly forgotten and Martin Sheen is hit or miss, and from the DVD feature, I'm inclined to believe that the cast and crew were so enamored by his presence they forgot to direct. Call to Arms is a pretty good introduction to Crusade, though, like what we began to say of the Telepath "War" on Crusade, the Drakh war is reduced to a couple of space battles that end, predictably, with a guest character making an apparently noble sacrifice (did we expect anything less as soon as he called his wife and daughter?). Legend of the Rangers is fun, but marred by moments that are absolutely terrible, mostly due (except for the first five minutes, which are just BAD) to a script that's painfully in need of a major re-write.
Grade: C+
Crusade: Sadly, the First and Only Season
If Babylon 5 is Deep Space Nine, Crusade is Voyager. More standalone, with a goal (on Voyager, getting home; on Crusade, curing the Drakh Plague) that is pursued in some episodes and all but ignored in others. This fact, I think, is Crusade's biggest sin. Where Voyager had a goal that was not of any *grave* importance, Excalibur's mission is. Five years to cure this thing (four by the end of these 13 episodes), and we're spending FAR too much time playing Cowboy with Galen's father, listening to music from Bra'tac, and parodying the X-files with the Cancer Alien.
Do I like the gray uniform episode more than the black ones? Honestly, I think the show was better when TNT said that it had lost its way and threw more money to fully expand the world of Crusade. But, from 13 episodes, it's hard to judge Crusade and say "JMS' way would be better" or "TNT's changes would be better." I think a compromise between the two would have been best, but... could have, should have, would have. I will say this, even with such a chaotic production, Crusade season one is FAR better than Babylon 5 season one.
Grade: B+
Okay, here's the last of it...
Season Four: No Surrender, No Retreat
Season four should have been as good as season three. But it's a victim of pacing. The first six episodes are too slow for my tastes, until they suddenly realize the Shadow War has to be ended by Into The Fire and they abruptly end that storyline. I have little problem with the way the Shadow War is concluded, but it happens in such a rush that it just doesn't work. Watch season three and the Shadow War doesn't look like one that should be over dramatically in six episodes.
The next string of episodes are great, perhaps more consistent than even season three. I have no qualms about the end of the Earth Civil War storyline. It's breakneck pace is perfect. The conclusion is perfect--Rising Star would be an excellent end to the series, with Sleeping in Light as a nice coda. Add to that Thirdspace and In the Beginning and you'd be set, I think. But, beginning with The Deconstruction of Falling Stars, problems start to crop up. But I consider Sleeping in Light to be a season four episode and Deconstruction to be a season five episode, so I'll move onto that...
Grade: B- (first six); A (rest of season)
Season Five: The Wheel of Fire
This is the weakest season of the series, plain and simple. I really don't want to get into it. Suffice it to say, the first 13, despite containg a few gems, are very weak as a whole. The next nine are stronger, but still not as good as seasons three and four. Lennier's betrayal of Sheridan doesn't end up working, and what results as everyone's betrayal of Lyta is just stupid, as I've bemoaned previously. Lochley just isn't a good replacement for Ivanova--the actress isn't as strong, especially when she's without someone like Gary Cole to play against. Not as much to say about this year, except, maybe, Grrr.
Grade: C+
The Movies (Thirdspace, ITB, RoS, LoTR, CtA)
The movies are hit or miss. Thirdspace is a fun standalone with enough pieces of background (Vorlons, Lyta, IPX) to make it worthy of B5. ItB is probably the best of the films, although the strange meeting of Franklin, Sheridan, and G'Kar (which contradicts the undercurrent of unfamiliarity between the characters in season two--IMO) does hurt the ending a little bit. RoS is a disaster--a 30 minute Lost Tale stretched into a 92 minute movie that's incompetently acted, directed, and written. Ian McShane is quickly forgotten and Martin Sheen is hit or miss, and from the DVD feature, I'm inclined to believe that the cast and crew were so enamored by his presence they forgot to direct. Call to Arms is a pretty good introduction to Crusade, though, like what we began to say of the Telepath "War" on Crusade, the Drakh war is reduced to a couple of space battles that end, predictably, with a guest character making an apparently noble sacrifice (did we expect anything less as soon as he called his wife and daughter?). Legend of the Rangers is fun, but marred by moments that are absolutely terrible, mostly due (except for the first five minutes, which are just BAD) to a script that's painfully in need of a major re-write.
Grade: C+
Crusade: Sadly, the First and Only Season
If Babylon 5 is Deep Space Nine, Crusade is Voyager. More standalone, with a goal (on Voyager, getting home; on Crusade, curing the Drakh Plague) that is pursued in some episodes and all but ignored in others. This fact, I think, is Crusade's biggest sin. Where Voyager had a goal that was not of any *grave* importance, Excalibur's mission is. Five years to cure this thing (four by the end of these 13 episodes), and we're spending FAR too much time playing Cowboy with Galen's father, listening to music from Bra'tac, and parodying the X-files with the Cancer Alien.
Do I like the gray uniform episode more than the black ones? Honestly, I think the show was better when TNT said that it had lost its way and threw more money to fully expand the world of Crusade. But, from 13 episodes, it's hard to judge Crusade and say "JMS' way would be better" or "TNT's changes would be better." I think a compromise between the two would have been best, but... could have, should have, would have. I will say this, even with such a chaotic production, Crusade season one is FAR better than Babylon 5 season one.
Grade: B+
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
Finally, as I would rank the seasons...
Babylon 5: 3
Babylon 5: 4
Babylon 5: 2
Crusade
Babylon 5: 1
The Movies
Babylon 5: 5
Apologies for the quadruple post, but my computer just wasn't wanting to process the thing as one, two, or three posts.
Discuss.
Finally, as I would rank the seasons...
Babylon 5: 3
Babylon 5: 4
Babylon 5: 2
Crusade
Babylon 5: 1
The Movies
Babylon 5: 5
Apologies for the quadruple post, but my computer just wasn't wanting to process the thing as one, two, or three posts.
Discuss.
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