Spoilers New York Comic-Con Season 4 Trailer

[saddestmoon]

^^^ Oh, I absolutely agree, re: dodging bullets.

BTW: liking your comment as I’m in agreement with it, not obviously for what the actor did!

 

[Agony_Boothb]

^^^ Oh, I absolutely agree, re: dodging bullets.

BTW: liking your comment as I’m in agreement with it, not obviously for what the actor did!

All good! I didn't think otherwise!

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I was just watching the Trailer for the 50th time and I'm thinking Kwejian is destroyed by the anomaly. I don't think the writers would do something as drastic as destroy Earth or Kaminar, and blowing up Federation worlds like Argeth or Na'Seth lack emotional resonance. The evidence pointing to it are the scenes of Book looking like he is in grief while Burnham hugs him, what looks like a flashback of Book watching his nephew play on Kweijian and Book collapsing in the Spore Cube from a great disturbance with his empath powers, as if millions of voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. Plus the fact that Book is from the 32nd century it makes the most sense for him to be the crew member most affected.

 

[Phily B]

You're confusing "slow and boring" with "slow and deliberate". Better Call Saul is slow and deliberate. It happens to be one of my favorite shows. It's also telling its story across six seasons. Discovery obviously decided to tell its stories at a rate of one overarching story per season. If you're going to have a beginning, middle, and end in a span of 13 episodes, there's only so much you can do.

How do you propose to have a build-up to and resolution of a Klingon War in a single season? Which happens to be the first season. How about Section 31 in Season 2 or The Burn in Season 3?

"Errand of Mercy" (TOS) had no build-up to a Klingon War, but most people accepted that war was inevitable right from the first teaser. The writers of the 1960s assumed that people were smart enough that one line of dialogue would be enough for people to understand. And it's been understood that the threat of war with the Klingons was a constant throughout TOS and its movies. It's something Trekkies have understood for decades.

You don't need build-up to a Klingon War in the 23rd Century. The general assumption is that tension and hostilities with the Klingons was the default environment. That's the main point of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country! If you're doing a series in the 23rd Century, this is what it is. Peace and friendship with the Klingons would need to be explained. Not the other way around.

PS: It's interesting that when people complain about DSC, somehow it usually ties back to the first season. That's how far back you really have to go to make your point work?

You're comparing a single episode of TOS with a 21st century show? Why don't you compare it to 3 seasons of build up to the Dominion War instead? DS9 was closer to Discovery and is miles above when it comes to build up and story telling.

I'm not being literal about it being boring, but it has to be methodical and going somewhere interesting and new, which Discovery ain't. And no, I can point to the second season too when there was an AI that was threatening all life in the galaxy. And Picard Season 1, which had almost the same thing. Burnham saving the galaxy every season is boring.

 

[eschaton]

So, basically, you want All Klingons All The Time for the first season of DSC is what you're telling me. And you want the season to be about nothing but war.

I know it's not, but that answer is effectively what you just said.

But let's continue on with it. Give us a beginning, middle, and end in 15 episodes. Let's see how imaginative you are.

... or, since you won't, maybe we can get back to talking about Season 4? Novel concept.

I know you didn't mention me, but some ideas off the top of my head:

• Several initial attempts to contact/ally with far-off races on the fringes of Klingon space. This could bring in groups like the Kzinti, Gorn, and Tholians. All of these will probably end in disaster, culminating in...
• The Federation gets a signal from a race on the far side of the Klingon Empire. Discovery is the only ship that can reach them due to the spore drive, and is sent to see if they wish to help in the war. It is actually the Romulans, but they are engaging in a ruse, pretending to be another race entirely so as to not give their true identity away to the Federation. Still, the Romulans are upset that the Klingons gained access to cloaking technology and are willing to help Discovery crack the code - in such a way that their own cloaking devices will still be completely secure. This could be a 2-3 part mini-arc.
• As I said upthread, at least one episode where some of the Discovery crew get stuck on a planet in the midst of a Klingon ground assault. I feel like this should be Andoria or Tellar, since we've seen comparably little of either planet. Again, it could be a 2-3 part mini-arc.
• One episode where the Discovery is called back to Earth to meet with Starfleet Command. The crew gets to return back to their homes, which gives us a better idea of both the family connections of the characters, along with allowing us to see how the war is impacting Earth's idealism negatively.
• Discovery crew meets a legitimate rebel/dissenting faction within the Klingon Empire (which would help to set up a better endgame for the season). Maybe set up that this group is mainly composed of the augment-virus Klingons, which helps set up better for TOS (since ENT already established these folks exist unfortunately).

 

[Lord Garth]

You're comparing a single episode of TOS with a 21st century show?

What I'm doing is asking why do we need build-up to something we already know and understand? It's just wasting time.

Also, like I said before, why would you need build-up to a situation that would've been considered the norm for that time period? But let's take Star Trek out of the argument and make it more general. Make it 1956 instead of 2256. You don't set something in 1956 and ask for build-up to the Cold War. You already know it was something that was going on and something that will continue to go on.

DS9 was closer to Discovery and is miles above when it comes to build up and story telling.

DS9 was building up a story with twists and turns where we didn't know where things were going to go. One of the advantages of DS9 never having been a prequel.

To make the build-up to the Klingon War interesting, there would've had to have been factors introduced that we already didn't know anything about. Otherwise, it would be like repeating a grade in school.

EDITED TO ADD: As much as I liked the 23rd Century, consider me one of those people who's glad Discovery isn't a prequel anymore.

 

[Lord Garth]

Several initial attempts to contact/ally with far-off races on the fringes of Klingon space. This could bring in groups like the Kzinti, Gorn, and Tholians. All of these will probably end in disaster, culminating in...

That's one way of going about things in a way that doesn't sound or feel like going over things we already know.

The Federation gets a signal from a race on the far side of the Klingon Empire. Discovery is the only ship that can reach them due to the spore drive, and is sent to see if they wish to help in the war. It is actually the Romulans, but they are engaging in a ruse, pretending to be another race entirely so as to not give their true identity away to the Federation. Still, the Romulans are upset that the Klingons gained access to cloaking technology and are willing to help Discovery crack the code - in such a way that their own cloaking devices will still be completely secure. This could be a 2-3 part mini-arc.

Hmmm. This ties back into the problem with prequels. If Discovery (and the Federation by extension) helped the Romulans, then why would the Romulans want to attack Federation Outposts in the Neutral Zone 10 years later?

As I said upthread, at least one episode where some of the Discovery crew get stuck on a planet in the midst of a Klingon ground assault. I feel like this should be Andoria or Tellar, since we've seen comparably little of either planet. Again, it could be a 2-3 part mini-arc.

Could work somewhere in the middle.

One episode where the Discovery is called back to Earth to meet with Starfleet Command. The crew gets to return back to their homes, which gives us a better idea of both the family connections of the characters, along with allowing us to see how the war is impacting Earth's idealism negatively.

Where this would make the most sense to have it would be around when "Lethe" takes place, when Cornwell is thinking about taking Discovery away from Lorca. Starfleet Command would be wondering "What the Hell is going on with this Captain?"

Discovery crew meets a legitimate rebel/dissenting faction within the Klingon Empire (which would help to set up a better endgame for the season). Maybe set up that this group is mainly composed of the augment-virus Klingons, which helps set up better for TOS (since ENT already established these folks exist unfortunately).

I agree that it would be a good idea for Discovery meeting with a rebel/dissenting faction of the Klingon Empire. In the actual series, L'Rell is effectively the dissent since she was secretly against Kol.

But where we run into a problem is with there being an alliance with Augment Virus Klingons. Why? Because Augment Virus Klingons are who the Federation is at war with in TOS.

My take was that the Federation established peace with the Klingons thanks to L'Rell, a lot of Klingons weren't too happy about that, and once something happened to L'Rell and she was out of the picture -- plenty of time for that to happen between DSC S2 and TOS S1 -- then hostilities would resume, even if not outright hot war.

 

[DarKush]

I know you didn't mention me, but some ideas off the top of my head:

• Several initial attempts to contact/ally with far-off races on the fringes of Klingon space. This could bring in groups like the Kzinti, Gorn, and Tholians. All of these will probably end in disaster, culminating in...
• The Federation gets a signal from a race on the far side of the Klingon Empire. Discovery is the only ship that can reach them due to the spore drive, and is sent to see if they wish to help in the war. It is actually the Romulans, but they are engaging in a ruse, pretending to be another race entirely so as to not give their true identity away to the Federation. Still, the Romulans are upset that the Klingons gained access to cloaking technology and are willing to help Discovery crack the code - in such a way that their own cloaking devices will still be completely secure. This could be a 2-3 part mini-arc.
• As I said upthread, at least one episode where some of the Discovery crew get stuck on a planet in the midst of a Klingon ground assault. I feel like this should be Andoria or Tellar, since we've seen comparably little of either planet. Again, it could be a 2-3 part mini-arc.
• One episode where the Discovery is called back to Earth to meet with Starfleet Command. The crew gets to return back to their homes, which gives us a better idea of both the family connections of the characters, along with allowing us to see how the war is impacting Earth's idealism negatively.
• Discovery crew meets a legitimate rebel/dissenting faction within the Klingon Empire (which would help to set up a better endgame for the season). Maybe set up that this group is mainly composed of the augment-virus Klingons, which helps set up better for TOS (since ENT already established these folks exist unfortunately).

This is great. I've often wished they had spent more time on the war in DISCO Season 1, and this would've been a great way to do that. Some ideas I had was doing an episode, or interspersing Kol and other Klingons throughout episodes (not much unlike how Valdore and the Romulans were handled on ENT) so we get to see the Klingon side more. I also would've liked to see the war from the perspective of colonists and other starship crews. We could see Robert April, Commodore Decker, the USS Intrepid, the Farragut with Garrovick and young Kirk, etc.

I really did like the Mirror Universe twist/arc in Season 1, but I felt it robbed a satisfactory finish for the Klingon War, which led them to just tack on an ending. I much rather would've liked the Mirror Universe twist to be the season finale, after they had finished the war arc. And Season 2 could've been about the Mirror Universe, perhaps all set in there.

 

[fireproof78]

This is great. I've often wished they had spent more time on the war in DISCO Season 1, and this would've been a great way to do that. Some ideas I had was doing an episode, or interspersing Kol and other Klingons throughout episodes (not much unlike how Valdore and the Romulans were handled on ENT) so we get to see the Klingon side more. I also would've liked to see the war from the perspective of colonists and other starship crews. We could see Robert April, Commodore Decker, the USS Intrepid, the Farragut with Garrovick and young Kirk, etc.

I really did like the Mirror Universe twist/arc in Season 1, but I felt it robbed a satisfactory finish for the Klingon War, which led them to just tack on an ending. I much rather would've liked the Mirror Universe twist to be the season finale, after they had finished the war arc. And Season 2 could've been about the Mirror Universe, perhaps all set in there.

Indeed. I would have enjoyed the Klingons being explored more, but even more so the consequences of the war. The MU as the twist in the second season would have been an opportunity to do a little bit more with the Spore Drive, and possibly limit it a bit more.

I do agree that Season 1 had a lot of ideas crammed in to it that could have been expanded upon in some dramatic ways. Aside from name dropping I see a lot of potential in these ideas.

 

[Saul]

That will show CBS to stop making Discovery! Seriously, how does that effect any sort of change in what you want to watch? The cognitive dissonance that prevails here is amazing.

It's not like I'm trying to stop CBS making Discovery or Star Trek. If people love it, then that's fine. I want to like it but it just didn't work for me, especially in season 3. I hope I'm proven wrong with season 4. I was critical of Lower Decks season 2 also but the last few episodes I loved. If I gave up watching completely I would have missed out on that. If people love Discovery season 4 and I don't then more power to them. You'll have the satisfaction of watching a thrilling season and I won't have.

 

[eschaton]

Hmmm. This ties back into the problem with prequels. If Discovery (and the Federation by extension) helped the Romulans, then why would the Romulans want to attack Federation Outposts in the Neutral Zone 10 years later?

Romulans don't believe in loyalty. They do believe in maintaining the balance of power however. Seems totally logical to me to try and save the Federation to hold back the Klingons, only to turn their backs on the Federation again.

Also, you could have the Romulans try and steal the spore drive technology. Ash Tyler as some sort of Romulan sleeper agent (even if rescued from the Klingons) would be a bit more believable, due to the need for less cosmetic surgery (though they'd have to do a total blood transfusion or something). Maybe he originally had some mission within the Federation, was captured by the Klingons, and incidentally ends up on Discovery. Then when Discovery meets the Romulans they pull him aside and awaken him with new orders.

Where this would make the most sense to have it would be around when "Lethe" takes place, when Cornwell is thinking about taking Discovery away from Lorca. Starfleet Command would be wondering "What the Hell is going on with this Captain?"

I was thinking more along the lines of the ship happening to have a mission there when the attack started, which results in a protracted battle where it's not safe to beam up from the surface. Or maybe the Klingons drop something like an EMP which knocks out all ground-side communications. I would say Lorca, Michael, and Tilly should be on the surface (Tilly could be the Nog of the episode, experiencing the trauma of war - though hopefully not losing a leg), while Saru and Stamets stay up in orbit.

I agree that it would be a good idea for Discovery meeting with a rebel/dissenting faction of the Klingon Empire. In the actual series, L'Rell is effectively the dissent since she was secretly against Kol.

But where we run into a problem is with there being an alliance with Augment Virus Klingons. Why? Because Augment Virus Klingons are who the Federation is at war with in TOS.

My take was that the Federation established peace with the Klingons thanks to L'Rell, a lot of Klingons weren't too happy about that, and once something happened to L'Rell and she was out of the picture -- plenty of time for that to happen between DSC S2 and TOS S1 -- then hostilities would resume, even if not outright hot war.

The Klingon empire is shown as being quite different by TOS - less feudal and set up more like an authoritarian state. If I were to hazard a guess L'Rell was couped by her second-in-command, who just co-opted her existing centralized power structure.

But if I were rewriting from the beginning, L'Rell as we saw her wouldn't exist. The first season was way to economical with named Klingons, having only four matter across the whole season, with L'Rell making a reverse heel turn because she's the last named Klingon standing. Mary Chieffo does good work though, so I'd still want her in an analogous role.

I really did like the Mirror Universe twist/arc in Season 1, but I felt it robbed a satisfactory finish for the Klingon War, which led them to just tack on an ending. I much rather would've liked the Mirror Universe twist to be the season finale, after they had finished the war arc. And Season 2 could've been about the Mirror Universe, perhaps all set in there.

My hope at the end of Act 1 of the first season was that Discovery would become something of a Flying Dutchman/Sliders on a starship - a ship lost because it cannot quite find its way back to the original timeline. The show then becomes about exploring the multiverse as a whole.

Obviously, they had different ideas, and dialed the Spore Drive way back.

But I do think the MU would have been better left to Season 2.

 

[fireproof78]

It's not like I'm trying to stop CBS making Discovery or Star Trek. If people love it, then that's fine. I want to like it but it just didn't work for me, especially in season 3. I hope I'm proven wrong with season 4. I was critical of Lower Decks season 2 also but the last few episodes I loved. If I gave up watching completely I would have missed out on that. If people love Discovery season 4 and I don't then more power to them. You'll have the satisfaction of watching a thrilling season and I won't have.

I don't understand this point of view. It hasn't worked for three seasons but this season will be the hit? Ok then...

 

[Lord Garth]

The Klingon empire is shown as being quite different by TOS - less feudal and set up more like an authoritarian state. If I were to hazard a guess L'Rell was couped by her second-in-command, who just co-opted her existing centralized power structure.

Looking at all the series and films, I think the Klingon Empire changes with whoever's in charge. They want to bend the Empire their way and whoever opposes them wants to take over and bend it theirs.

The most dramatic of those differences would've been if Duras had become Chancellor of the Klingon Empire instead of Gowron. There would've been a Klingon/Romulan Alliance instead of a Klingon/Federation Alliance. And that would've changed things in the Alpha Quadrant pretty drastically. Plus any pretense of "honor" would've been thrown right out the window.

Switching it back to DSC, there would've been a huge difference between the Klingon Empire under Kol-sha vs. the Klingon Empire under L'Rell. Kol-sha would've picked up the war with the Federation right where it left off. And this time it wouldn't have stopped.

So whoever took over the Empire after L'Rell must've been half-way between her and Kol-sha and assumed a more authoritarian posture to put down any serious opposition.

 

[Saul]

I don't understand this point of view. It hasn't worked for three seasons but this season will be the hit? Ok then...

No, I liked season 1 very much. Season 2 I liked too but wasn't a big fan of the red angel plot. Season 3 was a let down because it was a reinvention of the show but basically did the same big mystery thing of season 2. Season 4 looks like it's going to be the same, big mystery, reveal upon reveal until the end of the season. Picard season 1 did the same thing. I want to see the show get beyond that. I want to be interested in it for other reasons, not the mystery that will play out over a season. Why I liked Discovery season 1 so much is because I had no idea where it was going next.

 

[fireproof78]

No, I liked season 1 very much. Season 2 I liked too but wasn't a big fan of the red angel plot. Season 3 was a let down because it was a reinvention of the show but basically did the same big mystery thing of season 2. Season 4 looks like it's going to be the same, big mystery, reveal upon reveal until the end of the season. Picard season 1 did the same thing. I want to see the show get beyond that. I want to be interested in it for other reasons, not the mystery that will play out over a season. Why I liked Discovery season 1 so much is because I had no idea where it was going next.

Fair enough. Still don't get it but fair enough.

 

[Saul]

Thanks for meeting me part of the way.

 

[fireproof78]

Thanks for meeting me part of the way.

Half the stuff I do doesn't make much sense. Far be it for me to expect others to always make sense.

 

[Phily B]

What I'm doing is asking why do we need build-up to something we already know and understand? It's just wasting time.

Also, like I said before, why would you need build-up to a situation that would've been considered the norm for that time period? But let's take Star Trek out of the argument and make it more general. Make it 1956 instead of 2256. You don't set something in 1956 and ask for build-up to the Cold War. You already know it was something that was going on and something that will continue to go on.


DS9 was building up a story with twists and turns where we didn't know where things were going to go. One of the advantages of DS9 never having been a prequel.

To make the build-up to the Klingon War interesting, there would've had to have been factors introduced that we already didn't know anything about. Otherwise, it would be like repeating a grade in school.

EDITED TO ADD: As much as I liked the 23rd Century, consider me one of those people who's glad Discovery isn't a prequel anymore.

As far as I know, the Federation getting rekt by the Klingon Empire that it was to the degree in Season 1, in that time period, was not known or established. Nor did it make sense, when you had the Enterprise continuing its exploration and science missions, despite the Federation about to fall to pieces (???). The Klingons were even in Sol at one point, about to strike. Now, I always put Season 1 up to just bad writing or show running because of the behind the scenes stuff. But we're in a new time period, Season 3 showed a lot of promise, why go back to the same watering hole? It isn't a prequel anymore. There is a lot to see and do. How about a break from another galaxy wide threat that makes the universe seem smaller than it should?

 

[fireproof78]

That would be moving away from the familiar.

 

[Tuskin38]

That would be moving away from the familiar.

Which new Trek does all the time.