new Shogun adaptation coming...

Discussion in 'TV & Media' started by arch101, Jan 31, 2021.

  1. 1987SpaceGuy

    1987SpaceGuy Captain Captain

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    let me be more precise, it's not that he died that it's funny AF to me, but rather the how it happened.
    it just reminded me so much for the linked Justified death scene, which also didn't came unexpected, but the how made it a surprise and IMO an all time comedic classic, especially with Raylan's dry humor on top of it.
    Justified just like Shogun also had great writers, characters and arcs.

    You summed it up as to why I found his death tragic too.


    :scream: still 4 more days till the next episode
     
  2. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Reached a point in my book reread where I can make a comparison to this TV version. Not making any judgements or what not, just an observation:

    Show: During Toranaga's escape from Osaka Castle, Buntaro single-handedly charges Ishido's samurai pursuers. We lose sight of him, and he turns up later having enlisted the aid of ronin to make his escape.

    Book: Toranaga had already enlisted a bunch of ronin to hang around Osaka and be ready to aid his escape. Buntaro finds himself surrounded and outnumbered on the dock. He dumps his armor, gear, and katana into the bay to prevent their being taken, and prepares himself to commit seppuku. Toranaga orders him to run, to try and escape. Buntaro obeys, jumping on a horse and running for it with several of the surviving ronin still fighting Ishido's men.

    So, in this adaptation it stays fairly close to the book. Probably easier to show Buntaro making a heroic charge instead of slowing down to explain why seppuku would have been the most samurai of acts in that situation. In the book, Mariko expresses misgivings over Toranaga's order, because Buntaro ran the chance of being dishonored by capture vs a clean, honorable death by his own hand.
     
  3. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The farther I get into the book, the more I'm finding that the current show is actually a much more faithful adaptation than I've been thinking. The difference is that this version is simply focusing on different parts of the book, and as we've said all along, really developing the Japanese characters and their point of view. I'm getting really close to parity with this last week's episode in terms of where the story is. Right now I'm eager to resolve the events with Naga and Buntaro putting a blade to Blackthorne's throat on the beach.
     
  4. 1987SpaceGuy

    1987SpaceGuy Captain Captain

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    highest stakes, so much anticipation :techman:
    brilliant episode

    Lord Toranaga
    • Yay, he does indeed have a plan. :cool: My instincts were right. I feel like he's playing 4D chess compared to everyone else who's are levels below.
    • LMAO how he played the church. Priceless look on the priest face when he was told courtesans will be their neighbors. :guffaw:
    • Was he actually sick or is that part of his plan to fool everyone of his weakness and surrender?

    Mariko
    • Mariko is the ultimate ice queen to Buntaro :lol: did she accept his tea invitation only in anticipation to rubbing more salt of her ice cold feelings towards him into his wounds by denying him his mutual death wish, while at the same time speaking out what she wants?
    • Also Toranaga: "Are you ready to do your part?" Mariko looking up: "I'm ready" :adore: :cool:
    • Please let her become a master assassin - who'll show up unexpectedly. She's the only one we know who knows Toranaga's real intentions from what we've seen.

    Hiromatsu :wah:
    • Wise old man RIP.
    • Am I reading the tea leaves wrong or did Hiromatsu actually know about Toranaga's plan and made the brutal - but necessary - ultimate loyalty sacrifice to convince everyone of Toranaga's surrender? If true ice cold, misleading Buntaro too, forcing him to chop off his head.
    Blackthorn
    • still nothing more than a useful chess piece on Toranaga's chess board
    • After meeting one of the 6 shipmates, it's seems he doesn't feel like belonging with them or his culture of origin anymore, but not really at home with the Japanese one either, though he alluded something with Mariko about having considered it for a brief time (I guess with her).
    • Yay he's on a ship.
    • He asked for coals that burn hotter - was that to heat his place or is that cannon related? It's not like they have steam boats yet.

    Lady/Lord Ochiba?
    I'm still confused. :shrug:
    • She believes that Toranaga was behind her father's death and thus despises him?
    • She's the mother to the "future" heir of Japan, aka Lord Toranaga's Lord (Teiko of Japan) who she also despises?
    • Who was the old lady who died of a "stroke"? Her Lord Lady? her mother?
    • Was the stroke a coincidence or was it planned?
    • What did the dying lady give to Lady Ochiba - was it a scroll?
     
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  5. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Oh my god - if this doesn't win some Emmys and Golden Globes ( and not just technical categories like costume which it deserves too) i don't know what it will take.

    The acting in this one, especially the last quarter of the episode, was beyond belief good - emotions running amok in everyone's face as the situation comes to a boil.

     
  6. Ridcully

    Ridcully Commodore Commodore

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    And the vice turned another round.....
    Utterly brilliant!
    Gods what an episode.
     
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  7. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They took some liberties here with the chanoyu (tea ceremony) between Mariko and Buntaro which I felt cheapened it quite a bit, giving it unnecessary western-style drama and motivations. The original version handled it in line with Clavell's writing, and is superior to what we were shown here. The original also did a better job of explaining the chanoyu and what goes into it.

    There was a lot more here that deviated significantly from the book as I remember it, and once again the show has leapt ahead of my re-read. I know for a fact that the scene with Blackthorn returning to his crew was practically excised. That will affect things later on so I'm interested to see where the show goes with a key scene towards the finish.

    Finally, remarking on @1987SpaceGuy post above:


    Never underestimate Toranaga-sama!

    See my remarks outside the spoiler tags. This entire scene was rushed and handled very poorly, IMO.

    I would say she doesn't know his true intentions any better than anyone else, but she does know where her duty lies.

    Hiromatsu even goes so far as to tell the others that Toranaga has a plan to fight- they just appear not to hear him. Toranaga never tells him explicitly, but Hiromatsu knows, because he knows Toranaga, and knows his duty as well as Mariko. His seppuku was another move of 4D chess, precipitated by him alone. I'm interested to get to this portion of my re-read and see how it matches up.

    I'm at a loss as to what they are doing with Blackthorn here. His storyline is massively deviating from what Clavell wrote, as far as I can see. In the book, he never forsakes Toranaga if I remember correctly, and Toranaga never releases him from service. The very idea of that alone is foreign to how things worked. This may be an attempt to give the character 'more to do', because at this point in the story Blackthorn is largely a witness to events rather than a direct participant.
    Steamships are a 19th Century invention. We are sitting at the very beginning of the 15th Century with this story. Not sure what the request for coal was all about, unless he just wanted a warmer hearth.

     
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  8. Set Harth

    Set Harth Admiral Admiral

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    Actually it's the end of the 16th, almost the 17th but not quite.
     
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  9. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You're right. I totally got that backwards. 1600 is the front end of the 17th Century. Rookie mistake!!

    I cannot live with this shame. I will now commit seppuku with a dull spoon. ;)
     
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  10. 1987SpaceGuy

    1987SpaceGuy Captain Captain

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    can't do that, I mean who's gonna response and answer to all my questions ;)
     
  11. Ridcully

    Ridcully Commodore Commodore

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    And somebody has to chop off da head with a dull blade somethin'!
     
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  12. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Geek Grrl Moderator

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    Hiromatsu's death alone made this episode SO intense!

    I *think* she was the Taiko's wife/oldest consort. She was the one who took Ochiba under her wing and helped her (somehow) conceive the heir.
     
  13. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

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    Living in Japan........I am really enjoying this........will be going into Edo tomorrow.......
     
  14. Morpheus 02

    Morpheus 02 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    How soon can we post without spoilers?

    I just gotta say, though, this was a powerful episode. One thing i haven't heard mentioned hear or Youtube reviews is just how amazing Hiroyuki Sanada is with introverted characters, who can show so much yet saying little.
     
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  15. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Getting near the end of my re-read; the only four major things from the show so far that didn't happen in the books:

    Naga's death. (Toranaga's son). Oddly enough, the new show doesn't even show Toranaga's older son and heir, Sudara.

    Buntaro holding a sword at Blackthorne's throat on the beach. He does ask Torangaa for this head in the book, though.

    Blackthorne and Toranaga do not abandon each other. There is no 'release from service' or anything like that. In the book, Toranaga gives his back the Erasmus and his men to torque the church and Christian Daimyos. People who know the story know how that all turns out- I won't spoiler it here, but I seriously doubt the show will end much differently, if at all.

    Toda Hiromatsu does not commit seppuku. Toranaga does order several other of his retainers to do so when they get uppity during his deception.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2024
  16. 1987SpaceGuy

    1987SpaceGuy Captain Captain

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    what a badass flower...

    welp, first Hiromatsu and now Mariko :wah:
    I was hoping for some attack to happen while she was playing for time/distraction during the whole episode...
    I jumped up from the couch and fist pumped when she picked up the long stick weapon... only to shout "nooooooo" at my TV at the end...

    What an tense episode.
    Mariko speaking up against Ishido - proud samurai family lineage (after all), then trying to fight her way out.

    Blackthorne who was willing to honor HER way/wishes by being her second and paraphrasing "I've been to hell, no need for you to go there with your mind, be free" or something like that, being "prepared" to offer her his assistance, even if it's the opposite of what he wants.

    and then Mariko's final scene, symbolic of an angel - sacrificing herself for the others - probably at peace with herself and all + having "officially" pillowed with Blackthorne too.

    heartbroken :wah:

    I expect Toranaga to attack - including with cannons - I'd be very disappointed otherwise, so many costly sacrifices...
    but maybe he'll also just kill Ishido and then surrender or something out of left field...

    Really hoping they stick the final episode and landing of the stories/arcs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2024
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  17. Set Harth

    Set Harth Admiral Admiral

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  18. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

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    I knew it was coming and still was heartbroken. Part of me was hoping they had changed it. I’ve really enjoyed this series. The cast is incredible and very much proud of what they’ve done with good reason. Glad audiences like it as well.
     
  19. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    This i was dreading since the start and it is one of the pivotal scenes of the book and the show. It was Anna Sawai's episode and if she and Sanada for the previous episode don't get at least some award nominations for their acting it'll be a scandal.

    Honestly i love the focus on the japanese characters in this version, so much that it sometimes feels Blackthorne is just a side character but the japanese cast is so formidable i don't really care that much. I am a bit sad that it will end next week but i am also curious how the fallout will be depicted, the trailer for the last episode suggests some real temper there.
     
  20. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, the penultimate episode has arrived, and I was watching the clock, wondering if they were going to do justice to the material they covered here. They did, although I do have a couple of complaints.

    There is sooooo much in the book that they could have easily made this a 12 episode series, yet they keep 'creating' events that never happened or altering those that did, instead of taking the stuff that DID happen, covering it properly and giving it room to breathe. Nobody expects a scene-for-scene remake of the original miniseries, but at least don't mangle the source material! There is no need- Shogun is just about the perfect novel as it is.

    There are a couple of 'core' concepts to the story that have been mistreated here. One is Blackthorne himself. He is based on the real-life William Adams, the first Englishman to reach Japan, and it happened very much the way Clavell wrote it in Shogun. Central to the story is the conversion of Blackthorne from a European man to a European man with a Japanese heart- a transformation catalyzed by his relationship with Mariko and her teachings. She teaches him how to be Japanese, and he teaches her what it means to love someone with a whole heart, in the western way. The Blackthorne we get in this version has not made that change in any way shape or form- now he's just a European man who speaks Japanese and, for some strange reason, walks really funny. Did the actor injure himself on set or something, or can he just not walk in tabi?

    In this episode you see Mariko and Blackthorne act like they are so much in love, but nothing we've seen before now really shows us how they arrived at this point. If nothing else, she's treated him with a mild contempt for most of the show. They totally skipped over the trip to Yedo, which is where Blackthorne and Mariko created a world within a world for themselves for the duration of the journey, their love blossomed, and his outlook truly transformed into a Japanese one.

    In this episode, Mariko asks Father Alvito to 'drink cha from an empty cup.' It's used almost as a throwaway line. In the original, Mariko had already gone to lengths to teach Blackthorne (and thereby the audience) what she means by this. It's a profound concept.

    Another mishandled character is Yabushige. (Kasigi Yabu). His openly flip-flopping loyalties and actions are internally inconsistent with feudal Japanese culture. In the book and miniseries, he has the lineage and ambition to become Shogun himself, but he hides it all in his inner heart, and I'm curious to see how they properly resolve this character's fate after the shambles they've made of it here. Clavell understood Japanese culture and Bushido, I don't think the writers of this version really do.

    Yabushige was the one to serve as Mariko's second for her seppuku when Kiyama failed to show, not Blackthorne. Her suicide was also to have taken place in full public view, in a garden, to achieve the desired effect of her mission. This was a bungled scene as written, although brilliantly acted.

    The crap about Mariko being raised with Ochiba is all made up tripe, as is the meeting between Mariko and her son. In addition to never happening in Clavell's narrative, her son's words and actions in this episode are completely western and completely non-Japanese. It's not possible for the scion of a samurai family to reject the notion of loyalty to his liege lord, go against his family's wishes, or threaten to disown his mother. Obedience, duty, and sacrifice would have been ingrained into his personality from the day of his birth. The word samurai itself means 'to serve.' The things he voices, if he felt them, would be locked solidly behind the 8th fence in his inner heart, never to be spoken of. And if he felt the shame of his family, he would consider committing seppuku, not whining to his mother. And I just spent a whole paragraph complaining about something that never even happened in the book. All this screen time could have been better spent on the events actually surrounding Mariko. Blackthorne's rudeness to Lady Ochiba and Yaemon at the end of that meeting would have resulted in his immediate beheading by the guards- an unbearable insult. Just more proof that this version of Blackthorne is no closer to 'going native' than he was at the beginning, but again, something completely made up for this TV version.

    All my own whining aside, this was a good episode. Liked the battle scenes as Mariko tried to lead the hostages out of Osaka. The ninja scenes were a little dark and hard to see, but the production values were excellent. I'm not sure how Yabu's betrayal is going to be exposed now, as those familiar with the original story know how he was outed in the end. Of course, in this version, Yabu pretends loyalty no nobody anyway, so it hardly matters.

    Interested to see the wrap. Now they have to waste time on resolving things that didn't need resolving, like moving Blackthorne into Toranaga's 'camp' when he never actually left it. IRL, Toranaga would never trust him again, and probably just order his death as punishment for his disloyalty as hatamoto and retainer. But we'll see some sort of 'western-style' reconciliation, no doubt. All in all this has been an excellent production. I'm something of a purist and a perfectionist when it comes to TV and movie adaptations, so I know I'm easily frustrated. Despite those frustrations, I fully acknowledge the brilliance of this production and the excellence of the actors. In summary, I still love it and plan to buy it on physical media.

    Onward to the finale! (And sorry for the mini-novel here...)
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2024
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