"I will poison you all."
He'd probably poison himself first by accident, if his "survival skills" are any indication.
Neelix...Why all the hate?
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He'd probably poison himself first by accident, if his "survival skills" are any indication.
Aren't the Ocampa just able to have one baby at all? So they have to wait untill they are ready, fuck once and then stop? I hope not. Poor things...
I don't know, Kes was treated like an adult by her people. Jung but of age. I never saw any pedophile actions from Neelix.
She was an adult.
But it's gangbusters to make fun of the situation.
But it's gangbusters to make fun of the situation.
Sorry, I wasn't being clear. When I said "...no matter how you try to justify it to yourself," the "you" and "yourself" wasn't referring to you, Exodus. It was just a general "you." Perhaps I should have said "oneself." Sorry if I sounded condescending.
I have gotten into so much trouble with that uncollective you.
A 20 year old woman loses her memory and is forced to start back from square one beginning with learning the language everyone speaks.
Is she a child? Or is she a woman with near zero life experience?
Uhura was mind wiped by the Nomad Probe and she was able to get back to her job on the bridge by the end of the episode after McCoy and Chapel had taught her English and forbid her to speak Swahili.
A 20 year old woman loses her memory and is forced to start back from square one beginning with learning the language everyone speaks.
Is she a child? Or is she a woman with near zero life experience?
Uhura was mind wiped by the Nomad Probe and she was able to get back to her job on the bridge by the end of the episode after McCoy and Chapel had taught her English and forbid her to speak Swahili.
ALL can be explained in universe. You don't need different standards for continuity IMHO.
I just feel sorry for Tuvok.
The rules of Physics he grew up with as a child in the 2270s are suddenly an imaginary fairytale. That has to discombobulate his sense of logic and fairness just a scoshe.
The rules of Physics he grew up with as a child in the 2270s are suddenly an imaginary fairytale. That has to discombobulate his sense of logic and fairness just a scoshe.
When creating Voyager, it's clear they created Neelix to fill a Quark-like role. It looks like his concept was to be a Sacagawea of sorts for Voyager, knowing the terrain, serving as a guide to worlds with food/water/mineral resources, being their envoy to races he's dealt with before, and so on. Neelix is routinely called on early on in this capacity, though that ends in "Fair Trade". Even with that, after the Paris-Neelix-Kes love triangle, it seems the writers didn't know what to do with Neelix besides have him be the crew's cook and trying to do a Odo-Quark rivalry-lite with Tuvok-Neelix. It didn't really go anywhere much (besides "Riddles").
Ultimately, his character fizzled and was basically limited to virtual cameos by serving food to other cast members and getting a few lines. They tried to pair him up with Naomi Wildman, but she appeared so infrequently and later on was paired up with Seven on occasion. Once again, they didn't know what to do with him. He had fizzled out long before Seven & the Doctor came to dominate the show. Even episodes like "Investigations" give a sense of they don't know what to do with the Neelix character.
Quark was quite successful as the king of B-stories. He often was part of the B-story in many episodes, often with Odo, sometimes Kira, as a foil, and then he got episodes of his own, the "Ferengi episodes", which while some people hate them, Quark was a well-developed character and those episodes did really flesh out the Ferengi. Quark-centric episodes were more self-contained than Sisko/O'Brien/Bashir/Dax/Odo/etc-centric episodes, which was a good thing (for those that didn't like Ferengi episodes). There weren't that many characters like Quark in many tv series (minor characters but part of the main cast, having a presence in almost every ep, then getting 1 or 2 solo adventures of their own every season). Neelix is like a failed Quark, one where they never found out what to do with him, so he would just be left as the bartender, getting a few lines in every episode with another cast member.
Neelix could have been used more, if the writers had remembered his history as a junk dealer and scrap salvager, and he could have been a resource conservation officer of sorts for Voyager. He could have been used, with his ship (which they still had) for scouting ahead of Voyager, using some of their goods to trade merchants and get info on the space-faring powers of that region and where to acquire other resources, but they didn't do that either. All he did for Voyager was basically cook around the clock for 150-ish people.
Besides Neelix having no "Ferengi episodes" of his own or even episodes with stories designed around his skills & experiences before Voyager came, we rarely saw him put to good use after Season 2 with the exception of "Fair Trade". "Rise", hated as it was, he did serve a great role, having experience with space elevators. Quark we saw got a few good roles on missions (especially "The Jem 'Hadar", as well as "Starship Down", "The Search"). Beyond that, what missions was he on (was he on "Juggernaut"?)? Garak did far more for DS9 with far fewer appearances.
Ultimately, his character fizzled and was basically limited to virtual cameos by serving food to other cast members and getting a few lines. They tried to pair him up with Naomi Wildman, but she appeared so infrequently and later on was paired up with Seven on occasion. Once again, they didn't know what to do with him. He had fizzled out long before Seven & the Doctor came to dominate the show. Even episodes like "Investigations" give a sense of they don't know what to do with the Neelix character.
Quark was quite successful as the king of B-stories. He often was part of the B-story in many episodes, often with Odo, sometimes Kira, as a foil, and then he got episodes of his own, the "Ferengi episodes", which while some people hate them, Quark was a well-developed character and those episodes did really flesh out the Ferengi. Quark-centric episodes were more self-contained than Sisko/O'Brien/Bashir/Dax/Odo/etc-centric episodes, which was a good thing (for those that didn't like Ferengi episodes). There weren't that many characters like Quark in many tv series (minor characters but part of the main cast, having a presence in almost every ep, then getting 1 or 2 solo adventures of their own every season). Neelix is like a failed Quark, one where they never found out what to do with him, so he would just be left as the bartender, getting a few lines in every episode with another cast member.
Neelix could have been used more, if the writers had remembered his history as a junk dealer and scrap salvager, and he could have been a resource conservation officer of sorts for Voyager. He could have been used, with his ship (which they still had) for scouting ahead of Voyager, using some of their goods to trade merchants and get info on the space-faring powers of that region and where to acquire other resources, but they didn't do that either. All he did for Voyager was basically cook around the clock for 150-ish people.
Besides Neelix having no "Ferengi episodes" of his own or even episodes with stories designed around his skills & experiences before Voyager came, we rarely saw him put to good use after Season 2 with the exception of "Fair Trade". "Rise", hated as it was, he did serve a great role, having experience with space elevators. Quark we saw got a few good roles on missions (especially "The Jem 'Hadar", as well as "Starship Down", "The Search"). Beyond that, what missions was he on (was he on "Juggernaut"?)? Garak did far more for DS9 with far fewer appearances.
Neelix should have been wily.
Lied to Janeway straight out of the gate. Towed her into a clusterfuck that lasted two years and no one even noticed he was the root of all that scuffle.
Plenty wily.
Gosh he beat up Kim to get his leg over.
Imagine if everyone beat up Kim before that set off after a paramour?
For good luck.
Kim's blood on your knuckles is an aphrodisiac.
Plenty wily.
Gosh he beat up Kim to get his leg over.
Imagine if everyone beat up Kim before that set off after a paramour?
For good luck.
Kim's blood on your knuckles is an aphrodisiac.
I think Neelix can be considered the Jar Jar Binks of Voyager in a different way. When people saw The Phantom Menace, it was easy to just hate Jar Jar Binks, because he was the most obvious example of why the movie was awful. There was a whole lot more going on that was awful in that movie, but Jar Jar was just the most obvious thing, so people layed into him without considering the fact that the whole movie didnt work.
I think its the same with Voyager. Was Neelix really any worse than any other character? No. However, he was obnoxious, ugly and basically like something you would find in a childrens show. So he gets dumped on.
I think its the same with Voyager. Was Neelix really any worse than any other character? No. However, he was obnoxious, ugly and basically like something you would find in a childrens show. So he gets dumped on.
This thing with Kes reminds me a little of the old V tv series in 1984 & 85. Elizabeth, half human, half Visitor, grows at an accelerated rate, metamorphosing into an 18 year old within 2 years. She then acquires a boyfriend (Kyle in his 20's). The thing is, she may look like she's 18, but for all intents and purposes, she's 2 and in an intimate relationship with a 20+ year old. Granted, the producers were pretty sloppy with concepts all around, but it was hard to get past that.
Kes, at least, was a full alien, as was Neelix.
Kes, at least, was a full alien, as was Neelix.
He plays the fool, wily by amusing accident rather than design. I think he works well as a character, though these elements are there they are not automatically terrible elements. He is not over the top like Jar Jar at all.
I think you're kind of reaching here.
The reason why Jar Jar is an appropriate microcosm of the problems TPM had was because he was designed mostly for kids, his "humor" was awkward and banal, etc.
TPM was the most childish of the prequel scripts and so the example works.
How is Neelix a microcosm of what went wrong for Voyager?(Just to accept your premise-I rather like Voyager and think it's unfairly criticized)
Because he's awkward and ugly? So you're saying Voyager was awkward and ugly? Because he looked like a kids' character? But Voyager wasn't designed for children, specifically.
I dont think theres any point in trying to convince you that Voyager was a bad show, thats just my opinion. I think you've misunderstood what Im saying here, though. Im not saying Voyager was awkward or ugly, Im saying that Neelix, like Jar Jar, wasnt the worst thing, just the most obvious thing.
Ill take two other characters from each franchise to illustrate my point: Tuvok and Qui-gon Jinn. Tuvok and Qui-gon Jinn were far more accepted than Neelix and Jar Jar, but from my perspective they werent really any better and didnt really bring anything to the dynamic of the story, they were just a little better disguised than the other two.
Qui-gon Jinn really added nothing to the story, his character was totally one dimensional and he behaved like a fool. However, he said things that were vaguely Jedi-ish, he wore the same clothes as Obi-wan did, and he could also kick ass if he wanted to. Additionally, he looked cool. So people didnt really get annoyed at him like they did at Jar Jar, because, even though he was really just as dumb, he wasnt as obviously dumb as Jar Jar. His role in the film was essentially the same role as Obi-Wan in ANH, the old and wise Jedi. He wasnt though, Obi-Wan was needed in the story as a kind of foil for the reckless and idealistic Luke Skywalker. Qui-gon Jinn was just there, thye really should have just used young Obi, but instead they cancelled each other out.
Then we have Tuvok, and it always just seemed to me like they decided on a Vulcan security officer, but didnt really consider what he would bring to the dynamic of the ship. In TOS, Spock was used as a foil to Bones, the two of them acted as counsels to Kirk. This worked perfectly, because Spock's often cold logic would conflict with Bones' humanism, and this complements Kirk, whose chief flaw and advantage was his confidence. The same thing can be seen in TNG, where the very moral but quite distant Picard is complemented by Data and Riker. Riker gives Picard a more brash and pragmatic point of view, and within the crew is the mans man to Picards intellectual. Data has the ability to break things down and show the fundamentals (like in The Measure of a Man with his point about all SF officers getting cybernetic eyes), his childlike naivity also lets Picard reflect on the true nature of humanity. The characters basic attributes aided the dynamic of the show.
This didnt happen in Voyager. Janeway seemed to just have the answers herself, she didnt really have a exposable flaw or advantage She seemed to be whatever the story needed her to be. Tuvok really has no role in the dynamic, just as Chakotay doesnt. There wasnt any need for a Vulcan, just as there wasnt really any need for a half-Klingon. However, just lke Qui-gon Jinn, Tuvok did at least act right. He said 'logical' or 'illogical' like five times in every sentence, he looked like a Vulcan, he wore the uniform well, and he could kick ass when he wanted to. Again, he was also just more awesome looking than Neelix.
The two characters were just as good or as bad as each other, the only difference was that Neelix was more obviously stupid, and Tuvok less so.
OK, I get what you're saying. I thought you were saying Neelix is a microcosm of how Voyager went wrong, which didn't make sense, but you were just saying he was the most OBVIOUS example of something to criticize, right?
(But I really like both characters of Qui-Gon and Tuvok. Really, they're both just so cool.)
And they did kind of go to far in making Janeway jack-of-all trades, renaissance woman, expert tactician/engineer/scientist.
(But I really like both characters of Qui-Gon and Tuvok. Really, they're both just so cool.)
And they did kind of go to far in making Janeway jack-of-all trades, renaissance woman, expert tactician/engineer/scientist.
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