Poll Nature of the First Federation?

[Timo]

I've always assumed it was more powerful than the Federation. Balok had to come from some context, after all, and that's a huge and powerful ship designed to do...what, exactly?

Possibly the same stuff the Narada was built for. A big ship with a powerful tractor beam and no known weaponry would be nice for tearing apart asteroids.... Although tentacles work better than bubbles in conveying that impression.

But a cluster of bubbles capable of detaching smaller clusters of bubbles could also be a container transport, with economy advantages from size.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mudd]

No.

 

[Shawnster]

Or it was purpose built to scare off trespassers, like the warning bouy or the puppet.

Big mostly empty shell to house a runabout size (or little bigger) ship.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Or it was purpose built to scare off trespassers

Like a frilled lizard makes itself seem bigger than it is? Combined with blocked sensors, that's effective.

 

[Dukhat]

I've always assumed it was more powerful than the Federation. Balok had to come from some context, after all, and that's a huge and powerful ship designed to do...what, exactly?

That's why I always thought that the sphere was just primarily an empty shell. It's a bit of an overkill to have a ship that size for just one person.

I also have assumed that when the writers were casting around some weeks later for something to call the government that Kirk reported to, they sort of vaguely remembered this use of "Federation" and decided that it sounded good.

Most likely.

 

[Christopher]

^It's not like "Federation" is an unusual name for a government in science fiction. People today often don't realize the extent to which TOS was popularizing what were already decades-old tropes and terminology from prose SF. Perhaps the earliest Federation in science fiction was the Federation of Stars in Edmond Hamilton's Interstellar Patrol series beginning in 1929. Robert Heinlein featured Federations in several of his '50s novels, including the Terran Federation in Starship Troopers from 1959. H. Beam Piper had his own Terran Federation in his fiction from the '50s-'60s. So the term was in fairly common use in SF at the time, although there were others that Trek could've also used, like some sort of "Union" or "League." And of course plenty of Empires, Terran and otherwise.

"United Federation of Planets" was probably drawing on both the widespread use of "Federation" in SF and more specifically on the United Planets from Forbidden Planet.

 

[GNDN18]

H. Beam Piper’s “Paratime” stories involved a Federation; with a little tweaking, it could easily be retrofitted into Trek continuity.

His novel Space Viking featured a starship Enterprise, too. The more sci-fi and space opera I read, the more I see the connections to Star Trek.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That's why I always thought that the sphere was just primarily an empty shell. It's a bit of an overkill to have a ship that size for just one person.

Empty or not, it always came across to me as further misdirection on the part of Balok, just like his puppet that delivered the ultimatum and countdown. Things start off with the appearance of being threatening, but really there's no such intention. So, yeah, there's a suggestion that maybe the spherical mother ship isn't what it seems to be also. Sure, maybe it's just a light show.

In any case, the small so-called "pilot vessel" seemed advanced by itself, so on the other hand maybe the mother ship contained further wonders, all the more for Bailey to explore.

 

[XCV330]

H. Beam Piper’s “Paratime” stories involved a Federation; with a little tweaking, it could easily be retrofitted into Trek continuity.

His novel Space Viking featured a starship Enterprise, too. The more sci-fi and space opera I read, the more I see the connections to Star Trek.

I think Piper was more influential on other science fiction writers than is realized. His galactic republic type governments came before Asimov's as well, if I recall correctly. Sadly he killed himself before he had a chance to really gain popularity when sf started to hit mainstream. There was a gathering of the best sf writers at a world con a few years later, and I remember I think it was Jerry Pournelle saying "H Beam Piper wasn't there and he should have been."

I agree his federation isn't all that far fetched in the Trek universe, and it in my head it fits in very well with Forbidden Planet too. I have a book of his short stories somewhere on a shelf. Need to find it now.

 

[johnnybear]

Hey, you were the one who claimed that Balok was "testing" whether they were humanoid, implying that he would reject nonhumanoids. That's the very essence of racism, judging people by what they are instead of who they are.

And you're getting it backward. Racism is pre-emptive rejection based on ignorance. Learning about others cures racism; it doesn't create it.

Actually I was meaning that he was hoping they were similar to himself and not something unrecognized! When they were revealed to be somewhat similar, although taller, then he had to fathom whether they were hostile and warlike and maybe he had had experience of hostile life forms in the past! Nothing to do with racism at all which wasn't a hook for the story, at least in my view!
JB

 

[Christopher]

Actually I was meaning that he was hoping they were similar to himself and not something unrecognized!

Which, again, is the definition of racism.

 

[johnnybear]

But in outer space fear of an unidentified spaceship and it's crew is not racism! If anything it's self survival surely?
JB

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

It depends on whether you've reached the point where unknowns from other planets can always potentially be totally awesome, or go glass fully full. We haven't and neither have they; nobody in Trek sends unprotected away teams ready to party on/with the planet and people we've never heard of until this second, just knowing they'll be okay no matter what.

 

[Christopher]

But in outer space fear of an unidentified spaceship and it's crew is not racism! If anything it's self survival surely?

You didn't say "unidentified" before. You said "to see if they were... humanoid." You said "he was hoping they were similar to himself." You're equating physical form with worth and desirability. If you don't understand that that's what racism means, then you need to get yourself a goddamn dictionary. Good grief, the whole point of "The Corbomite Maneuver" is that we shouldn't fear what we don't understand! The whole reason Kirk passed Balok's test is because he didn't embrace the kind of kneejerk xenophobia that you're talking about here!

 

[1001001]

If you don't understand that that's what racism means, then you need to get yourself a goddamn dictionary.

Okay, let’s take a step back here. You don’t need this to make your point.

Thanks

 

[johnnybear]

By your argument you're saying if a spider-like creature attached itself to the hull of your spaceship then you should open the airlock and let it in, ignore it's hideous features and make friends with it! That way you'll find yourself and others in your crew wrapped up in it's web and ready for dinner my friend!
JB

 

[Nerys Myk]

By your argument you're saying if a spider-like creature attached itself to the hull of your spaceship then you should open the airlock and let it in, ignore it's hideous features and make friends with it! That way you'll find yourself and others in your crew wrapped up in it's web and ready for dinner my friend!
JB

Or you've made contact with a new lifeform and formed a reason for an alliance.

 

[1001001]

By your argument you're saying if a spider-like creature attached itself to the hull of your spaceship then you should open the airlock and let it in, ignore it's hideous features and make friends with it! That way you'll find yourself and others in your crew wrapped up in it's web and ready for dinner my friend!
JB

"To explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life and new civilizations..."

 

[UnknownSample]

Is that a good idea, though, when we learn the guy's a big liar and did at least some of that stuff purely for show?

If here was real intent or need behind the towing, then it would not make sense to use the towing as the test, with deliberate faking of trouble and all. And if that bit is fake, then basically all of it is. Including seemingly having the glassware for parties with multiple participants.

Timo Saloniemi

I've watched that episode a lot over 50 years, and I don't recall Balok announcing that the engine failure on his ship was faked. That doesn't mean he didn't, I'm just surprised and doubtful.

There's no reason for any of this, without there being a people he's protecting. He doesn't personally need to know if the Federation is friendly. Why a warning buoy? Who built the ship for him?

Clearly this is an unusual defence strategy. They can't build a huge intimidating space fleet, so they spend what they have on a great big scary watchdog with no teeth. They hope to scare potential invaders away. If it's ALL faked, if there's no First Federation, any understandable motivation for what he does vanishes instantly.

Everything Balok says is a lie because he's a big liar? Well Kirk lied big with the corbomite business, so...

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well Kirk lied big with the corbomite business, so...

Exactly, and so did Balok. They both bluffed. Kinda makes you wonder whether the title is meant to apply to both sides in the equation.

The question was in how far the bluff extended. Bailey would find out for the Federation (or Kirk would find out that Bailey had met an unfortunate fate of some kind). Likewise, Balok would learn from Bailey.

I've watched that episode a lot over 50 years, and I don't recall Balok announcing that the engine failure on his ship was faked. That doesn't mean he didn't, I'm just surprised and doubtful.

From http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/3.htm:

BALOK: My alter ego, so to speak. In your culture, he would be Mister Hyde to my Jekyll. You must admit he's effective. You would never have been frightened by me. And I thought my distress signal quite clever. It was a pleasure testing you.
BAILEY: Testing us?
KIRK: I see.
BALOK: I had to discover your real intentions.​

The distress signal was faked. And calling it a test of real intentions wouldn't make sense if the engine failure were real. Ergo, it was faked too; Bale's pilot vessel doesn't appear disabled in the slightest on the inside, and he is no hurry whatsoever to bring back the mother ship.