Poll Nature of the First Federation?

[USS Triumphant]

Someone somewhere... maybe here... suggested that Trill and Betazed were originally part of the First Federation. When the First Federation was incorporated or joined the UFP, those planets came along.

On some days I like this idea and on other days I like the idea that Betazoids were part of the Federation in the TOS era.

Emony Dax knew Leonard McCoy.

I was one poster who suggested this at one point - and I believe I originated it, but I may not be the only one who originated it, since I don't believe it required any unique genius on my part.

I think that contextually, there are things said regarding mental abilities in TOS that imply that Betazoids weren't part of the Federation or well known yet. But nothing definitive, so certainly, YMMV.

Emony *did* know Leonard McCoy - but I don't recall anything that says that that was before the Enterprise met the Fesarius. If diplomacy moved swiftly and the civilizations were highly compatible, First Federation citizens could have been regular visitors to Federation worlds (and vice-versa) in time for the interim between the end of the 5 year mission and the events of TMP.

Or perhaps, the reason Balok took the scary tack that he did in evaluating Kirk and company was that Federation ships were already poking around the edges of their space and it was inevitable that they were going to be in more regular contact soon, so Balok either wanted to know they were okay or he wanted to scare the bejesus out of them if his people were going to need time to prepare for hostilities.

 

[Shawnster]

DAX: No, my host at the time was Emony. She was on Earth judging a gymnastics competition. I had a feeling he'd become a doctor. He had the hands of a surgeon.

It was before McCoy became a doctor. Since Emory was judging a gymnastics meet, it stands to reason Trill was very well known at that point in time.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Hmmm. Okay. I stand corrected. But, all that means I need to change in my theory is whether or not Trill, specifically, was part of the First Federation. It could still be where we got any or all of the Betazoids, Bolians, Lurians, or almost any other Federation member species seen in TNG and not in TOS.

 

[Christopher]

It could still be where we got any or all of the Betazoids, Bolians, Lurians, or almost any other Federation member species seen in TNG and not in TOS.

We can rule out Betazoids. Star Trek: Discovery just confirmed that Betazoids were already known to the Federation as of the mid-2250s. (Harry Mudd apparently once robbed a Betazoid bank.)

 

[USS Triumphant]

I DON'T WATCH DISCOVERY UNTIL THE TUESDAY AFTER!!!!

(It's okay, though - that's very very minor. )

 

[Timo]

Would Betazoids be UFP members, though? They could be First Federation members and not tell the Junior Federation until they have to. I mean, Dominion members early on apparently didn't advertise their membership unless pressed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tim Thomason]

Would Betazoids be UFP members, though? They could be First Federation members and not tell the Junior Federation until they have to. I mean, Dominion members early on apparently didn't advertise their membership unless pressed.

Timo Saloniemi

Harry Mudd is using technology he is thought to have obtained from "four-dimensional races", so it's not out of the question that he (and maybe even Baron Grimes and other human opportunists) are also having deals with First Federation members or even Ferengi and Gorn and whomever else. Space is a three-dimensional wonderland with unexplored (and possibly naive) cultures in all directions, especially for those not burdened with things like the Prime Directive, diplomatic negotiation, "Neutral Zones", first contact procedure, or even the slow pace that comes with exploring every quasar-like object or hole in space.

 

[uniderth]

We can rule out Betazoids. Star Trek: Discovery just confirmed that Betazoids were already known to the Federation as of the mid-2250s. (Harry Mudd apparently once robbed a Betazoid bank.)

i don't think that what's shown in Discovery should really matter in the analysis here since it's a reboot/reimagining.

 

[Nerys Myk]

i don't think that what's shown in Discovery should really matter in the analysis here since it's a reboot/reimagining.

Sure it would.

 

[Commishsleer]

Just gonna leave this here:

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Face_of_the_Unknown

I'm half-way through.
Great book.

Spoiler: Slight Spoiler For Face of the Unknown

And provides a set of explanations for the First Federation and why we haven't heard of them again. Maybe it does - I've still got a half-book to read

 

[Timo]

As far as Emony and Leonard go, the dialogue does not establish that McCoy would have been anything less than MD at that point. They met at "Ole Miss", but both could have been merely visiting - nothing establishes that McCoy ever studied there, or even lived anywhere near.

And Trills... are the slugs. Emony could have been inside just about any species (humans will do in a cinch, that much was established from the get-go), or then never told anybody that she's a Trill. How much do you really need in the way of credentials to be a gym competition judge?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

i don't think that what's shown in Discovery should really matter in the analysis here since it's a reboot/reimagining.

Seriously? That myth hasn't died yet? It's no more a reboot than TMP, TNG, or ENT was.

 

[uniderth]

I think the First Federation is a bunch of little baby men. They are very far off and we have not encountered them much sense.

Yes. This exactly.

I think that contextually, there are things said regarding mental abilities in TOS that imply that Betazoids weren't part of the Federation or well known yet. But nothing definitive, so certainly, YMMV.

Any idea what these statements could be?

Seriously? That myth hasn't died yet? It's no more a reboot than TMP, TNG, or ENT was.

Ha. Ha ha.

I think the reason it hasn't died is becasue it's so blatantly obvious on screen. (AKA "Don't piss down my back and tell me its raining.")

TMP could leverage off the refit excuse and TNG was 100 years later, so they make sense.

ENT isn't even Star Trek so I don't even need to address it.

 

[MAGolding]

Would Betazoids be UFP members, though? They could be First Federation members and not tell the Junior Federation until they have to. I mean, Dominion members early on apparently didn't advertise their membership unless pressed.

Timo Saloniemi

I think that the Dominion would frown upon explorers and travelers from Dominion worlds not mentioning that their home worlds were part of the Dominion. During the second season several people from the Gamma quadrant mentioned the Dominion when it would naturally come up in conversation without any pressing from Starfleet members. But first season Gamma quadrantians did not.

In one episode a runabout is traveling from some place in the Gamma Quadrant to the wormhole mouth and someone says that the nearest Dominion outpost is weeks away. That proves that the Dominion has not yet expanded to reach the wormhole mouth.

So the Dominion has not expanded to the Wormhole mouth by the third season and the first season Gamma Quadrantians didn't mention the Dominion because it was far away and they didn't even think that they needed allies to prevent being conquered by it. And the Federation continued to explore the Gamma Quadrant because the space around the wormhole mouth was not ruled by the Dominion or anywhere near Dominion space.

And similarly people belonging to the First Federation would mention that they were citizens of the First Federation just like Kirk & Co. said they were citizens of the UFP once the creators decided that Earth was part of the UFP.

 

[SiddFinch1]

I always kind of though they were technologically advanced but small and relatively isolated.

 

[Classic_Colin]

Like many TOS civilisations, I think that the original intention was that the First Federation were a non-interventionist, if not even isolationist, pacifist beings a la the Organians and others. Additionally, Balok was likely a lone scout from a far-flung polity that could never be reached by the Federation, like with the Kelvans, Korob and Sylvia’s Ornithoid people, et al.

 

[Herbert]

It was all a ploy because Balok craved the meat of sentient species. Lt. Bailey provided enough to last for several weeks, but then Balok had to find some other unsuspecting starship crew to get his next meal from.

Kor

Maybe Tranya is people.

 

[johnnybear]

i don't think that what's shown in Discovery should really matter in the analysis here since it's a reboot/reimagining.

Agreed totally! The show is too different from TOS and just ticking off a number of points along the way in order to be accepted by the fans I feel and I'm not even sure it's set in the same universe despite what the creators say!
JB

 

[UnknownSample]

I think some posters might be taking the name "First Federation" to mean something like the Federation, many different species under one government. The United States is a federation. It's a form of government, that's all. We were shown an alien who looks like a human baby; I think that's what we are meant to presume the others are like.

 

[johnnybear]

I think some posters might be taking the name "First Federation" to mean something like the Federation, many different species under one government. The United States is a federation. It's a form of government, that's all. We were shown an alien who looks like a human baby; I think that's what we are meant to presume the others are like.

Strange looking 'human' baby!
JB