Nemesis was flawed absolutely and yes the other movies can be nitpicked as well. I take your point that my bias allows me to find flaw with anything in the movie. But one thing Nemesis did as a story while stupid, was in the case of the scimitar is suited in terms of power and purpose the flagship of a romulan praetor -again the look I hated but I can justify internally why Shinzon had that vessel after all he was backed by a faction of the military and also a dominion war veteran. The ship was to deliver a knock out blow to the federation hence why Shinzon had the backing of the military Theres nothing I can justifty about a group of miners having hellraiser/ borg abortion ship with nothing in the script explaining its power -A mining vessel has the firepower to defeat 47 klingon ships? Even if its from a century ahead -whats the explanation for that-As we know in Trek ships last centuries in use -sure power levels of disruptors might be weaker etc but 47 ships (and it was in one engagement) would still overwhealm the shields as both the Kelvin and enterpise were making a dent Even the infamous deleted Nero gets capture scene implies the narada was badly damaged so the magical "im from the future im immune" defence fails Whats with a mining vessel being that armed anyway? Sure space may be dangerous but what there are borg claim jumpers? Would the Romulan Government allow in its paranoid police state -civilian vessels to pack that kind of punch? No we get back to its all explained in the comic-as in my original post, like hell it is its just stupid No other trek movie has had me look up other media to justify whats on screen And thats why it annoys me if you apply any thought to even this aspect of Star Trek 2009 and you get a headache But hey It was a fun mindless ride big FX all thats needed nowadays -glad trek is doing well but even nemesis was a hell lot more internal consistent than that.
Real world reason: The Rura Penthe scene wound up on the cutting room floor, and Uhura's dialoig--which originally only mentioned the escape of a prisoner--was changed in post-production to mention a Klingon Armada being destroyed. Kirk's dialog on the bridge was also changed in post production, both via not-entirely-seemless voiceovers. This appears to have been a very last-minute change, one Abrams and company probably tried hard as hell to avoid (they put a really impressive amount of time and energy into it, after all) but in the end couldn't get the studio to approve the extra run time in theatres and were forced to make the change anyway. "47" was a random number, basically drawn out of a hat, in reference to the fact that ANY random number in the trekiverse is probably 47. In-universe explanation (speculating here): Nero needed to be able to enter Klingon space and intercept Spock without being disturbed by their border patrols. He chose to take a preemptive strike by Pearl Harboring the local security station (the un-named "Klingon Prison Planet" in the final cut) smashing several dozen patrol ships and the few Bird of Prey type vessels they had on hand before they even knew what hit them. Border patrols properly neutralized, Nero then cruised over to the rendezvous point to wait for Spock to arrive. And in the original version, Nero doesn't destroy ANY ships, he simply escapes from Rurapenthe. In the latter case, we're meant to assume that Nero either re-armed the Narada with its original weaponry (the ship is large enough to have its own factories, after all) or stole them from the Klingons. How about Afghan popy farmers being armed with RPGs and light machineguns? Same concept. Abrams went on record describing Nero's crew as, basically, a fanatical splinter group of Romulans with an emphasis on badassery; even other Romulans think they're crazy. They do, after all, belong to a society whose people expect to be assaulted and massacred at the first sign of weakness; Nero's sect, evidently, prefers not to be on the receiving end. Neither does STXI; it's eminently justifiable from the on-screen information. Your problem is you don't ACCEPT the on-screen information, and don't want to, and so others have presented you with alternate sources of information which you also dislike, for no other reason that you hate the idea of a TOS reboot that isn't as boring and pretentious as Star Trek: Voyager.
Real world reason: The Rura Penthe scene wound up on the cutting room floor, and Uhura's dialoig--which originally only mentioned the escape of a prisoner--was changed in post-production to mention a Klingon Armada being destroyed. Kirk's dialog on the bridge was also changed in post production, both via not-entirely-seemless voiceovers. This appears to have been a very last-minute change, one Abrams and company probably tried hard as hell to avoid (they put a really impressive amount of time and energy into it, after all) but in the end couldn't get the studio to approve the extra run time in theatres and were forced to make the change anyway. "47" was a random number, basically drawn out of a hat, in reference to the fact that ANY random number in the trekiverse is probably 47. Ummm Ok I heard the number 47 "warbirds" in the movie So I guess because of the behind the scenes information your describing it nullfies as canon as presented on screen? So Your defining what can used in discussing what happens regards Narada as presented on screen. In-universe explanation (speculating here): Nero needed to be able to enter Klingon space and intercept Spock without being disturbed by their border patrols. He chose to take a preemptive strike by Pearl Harboring the local security station (the un-named "Klingon Prison Planet" in the final cut) smashing several dozen patrol ships and the few Bird of Prey type vessels they had on hand before they even knew what hit them. Border patrols properly neutralized, Nero then cruised over to the rendezvous point to wait for Spock to arrive. How do you know the type of vessels that were there? Im utlising what is shown in the cinema print of the movie I saw? I clearly heard Uhura mention 47 "warbirds" and we even get a shot of d7/ktinga in the kobiashi Maru sequence Your speculating is as minimal as mine is maximal in terms of ships and even their class types if we are going in to this free for all speculation -this will be a never ending thread. I will stick what is mentioned in and seen in the cinema release of the movie. And in the original version, Nero doesn't destroy ANY ships, he simply escapes from Rurapenthe. In the latter case, we're meant to assume that Nero either re-armed the Narada with its original weaponry (the ship is large enough to have its own factories, after all) or stole them from the Klingons. Assume Nero and his miners rearm The narada with its original weaponry? Fine this is from a romulan mining vessel-you it goes and mines ore? Im lost here-Im just meant to infer from on screen that a vessel of this design and purpose can easily act as capitol warship as well? The film tells us they are miners and we see the vessel "mine" with its Mining "tube" So Logically I can assume this vessel is a mining ship! But wait if I assume enough I can convince myself that the vessel is armed to the point that it defeats vessels that are armed for defence against other capitol vessels ( i realise that its a vessel from 2387 and its fighting vessels from 2255) Even with a gap of 150 years a mining vessel has the firepower to defeat purpose built vessels that are designed to for either offense or defense reasons engage other combatants? its a MINING vessel iits built with a purpose to mine The movie offers us nothing else - NO bits of dialogue about its a refit using borg nano technology retro enginnered by the Tal Shiar etc all this wondrous other media sourced information post the release of the film We do get in the film as made a line that it has destroyed 47 warbirds This is making this mining vessel so ludicrous i think even star wars fans would have issues. How about Afghan popy farmers being armed with RPGs and light machineguns? Wow So now with that awesome analogy The Narada is an Illegal mining vessel -So what it mines banned ores in the romulan empire so it has to be ready to defeat Romulan Naval Vessels? Same concept. Abrams went on record describing Nero's crew as, basically, a fanatical splinter group of Romulans with an emphasis on badassery; even other Romulans think they're crazy. They do, after all, belong to a society whose people expect to be assaulted and massacred at the first sign of weakness; Nero's sect, evidently, prefers not to be on the receiving end. Ok so we are back to using information outside of the movie as screened So now its free for all -you pick whats accepted as canon in this discussion? Again we have none of this Nero and his "sect" are so "badass" other Romulans think they are crazy-what other Romulans? What source are you getting this from? The Blu ray features -The Prequel Comics? Abrams musings? Wkipedia? Fansites? If we are using those than it goes back to my post of the Naradas transformation is badly written and contrived. If the comics are accepted than we go back the stupidty of the Romulan Ruling Elite having no other vessel to flee the destruction of romulus in that Neros Mining ship? Mr presdient the white house is going to blow up! Oh crap but lucky for mr presdient a passing mining truck is nearby-wheres airforce one or his chopper who knows?! So the Praetor of the Romulan Empire or any Senators like on the continuing committee would not have a naval vessel at their disposal? No! otherwise we could not have the idiocy of what happens next -they are beamed on board Neros vessel Oh wait apparently all other romulans think nero and the boys are crazy -so The Praetor chose to go his death to escape his death? More contrived writing so Nero and his badasses get the magical Staff and learn where the secret facility is So The know crazy sect Leader Nero Rocks up to the secret facilty guarded by Romulan Military. Now going with this all other Romulans think Nero is crazy accept that the Mining Guild Leader has the Praetors Staff and codes and ok with this??!!!! Would they assume correctly some foul play has occured and the crazy nero has killed the leader of the Romulan Star Empire? Thus making Nero a traitor and than they would ummm kill him? NOOOOO! Come on in Nero take what you like you got the Staff and the codes its all super legit in what Star Trek has established as a paranoid Police State where rule of law is enforced by death. Neither does STXI; it's eminently justifiable from the on-screen information. Your problem is you don't ACCEPT the on-screen information, and don't want to, and so others have presented you with alternate sources of information which you also dislike, for no other reason that you hate the idea of a TOS reboot that isn't as boring and pretentious as Star Trek: Voyager. Wow just Wow The problem is I fully accept what is on screen (You know the no information about the Narada being anything than a mining vessel and it wipes out 47 klingon warbirds-The things you want to dismiss because of off screen information saying it was all a production stuff up) "Alternate sources of infromation" well you opened the pandoras box on that and apparently I have to accept every thing post production in any form from any source as fully valid-so naturally we go back to the comic which directly explains how Nero got the narada and what it does. Do i choose to dislike an explanation so contrived and badly written thats it insulting-something that makes no sense on any level. Yes I do Now on your assumption of my reason for disliking the narada as presented ON screen Hold on apparently I disliked the whole movie -you gleaned that from somewhere in your pandoras box No heres the fact I like that Trek got a Reboot as its called I love that it did well and new people are taking an interest in Star Trek old or New I thought the Trio were done well I mean Kirk, Spock, and Mccoy-the actors were brilliant in capturing the mannerisms etc. I liked the visuals of the bridge of the enterprise I loved seeing Nimoy again Uhura was well portayed What I did not like was the portrayal of the Romulans or the Narada Nero is the worst on screen villan in trek movies even the face lift failures from insurrection had more depth and presence. His backstory was confusing and the whole shaved gangers with markings look meant I had to accept they were romulans because it was mentioned. The Narada is just stupid as I explained above The destruction of Vulcan -I mean really Vulcans had no defence to topple the silly mining tube? I guess all of Enterpises 5 seasons of developing the vulcans was ignored for some reason-because its contrived. The whole Kirk has random beastie encounters on ice moon and after silly chase ends up in contrived cave with future spock Scotty stuck in unexplained willy wonkas water tube in such forced comedy that makes all the overdone neelix humour look well written. The cheap ass use of a brewery to act as the interior sets of the federation ships -nothing takes you out of the 23rd century faster when you see all the trappings of a present day brewery with some tables and prop computers slapped around-glad to see pressure pipes are required in great amounts on starships in the 23rd century. The whole worm hole and red matter scenario just pure contrived mess to allow for the reboot to be another universe so the writers could go crazy and hopefully still keep the old fans happy. And your super pulled out of nowhere assumption I like Voyager way to go on that one Nope I like some episodes of Voyager and some Borg aspects-Its end episode is the worst I have seen Its crew just on the whole were crap and Janeway ...shiver Dont outright hate Enterprise -because its explored in depth the vulcans who got not much development before hand. but again its crew were blah Loved TNG flaws and all -By seventh season cast were at the top of the game sadly ended in that season but ended well. Was meh on DS9's early seasons -but the Dominion war was brilliant good cast and ended ok. Love TOS. I was discussin the Narada on screen originally Quite happy to discuss all the various off screen stuff floating around.
I don't see why you're so reluctant to entertain any of the reasonable suggestions you've been given. The fun of this Trek Tech section is thinking of ways to reconcile all the contradicting information we see on screen. It's about lateral thinking to make all the bits fit together. You need to be creative and be willing to accept theories though. This section isn't supposed to be about "that was stupid, I hate this film/episode".
No Sure I will entertain any resonable Suggestions -so far all I have is one posters assumptions mixed in with post production information I have to assume comes from the Blu Ray-The assumptions themselves vary. I was operating on the assumption we were working from what was shown on screen, if not than the comic is the direct source on the naradas evolution from mining vessel to uber borg hybrid ship-I have stated why I cannot accept the comic as a resonable explanation. The poster than inferred my whole issue with the narada was as a result of total dislike for Star Trek 2009. So I deciced to summarise what trek i liked and disliked to clear all that up. I realise its all gotten messy and I apologise to all for this Please carry on discussing the Narada from the Tech aspect
Yes thanks I know mining work thanks - Does mining require weaponry mounted on the space vessel to destroy other space ships? In the order of some 47 Klingon Warships + 7 Federation Starships? Really mining requires that? The Narada has the gigantic core laser for that purpose as shown in the film! Umm you do the differance between a mining drill and ship mounted weapons designed to destroy other spaceships?
Clearly you just don't like the Narada and refuse to think about, for example, how a mining ship would actually mine in space -- it'd blow asteroids, much more massive than starships, to bits and collect the precious ore dust. Miners use drills... to place explosives. Note that the Narada did not have disrupters, phasers, or any other beam weapons. All it has was charges to blow asteroids and small moons to dust.
No I do not like the narada as presented in the film. In the film this vessel is taken as a mining vessel from the fact we learn the crew are miners (or former miners) and it has a massive drilling device. Its bizarre appearance internal or external shows only a design to make a dark villian vessel Its shows nothing of any romulan design lineage and it just there for looks No effort or at least care for the established look of vessels in the star trek universe-no attempt to glimpse at the romulan design to highlight something of this tragedy of revenge or belief that this displaced crew willing to wait 25 years displaced out of time for revenge for the lost of the homeworld. Something that could added a dimension to these tragic figures (Oh im sorry i should just not put any depth to the romulans-they are the baddies) also another chance to bridge the new reboot with the old. Instead we get a star wars scale borg rip off because baddies fly in baddie ships and they look nasty as well Simple appeal to the biggest audience. You have 10 movies and 5 seperate tv series that managed to establish a distinct racial look to vessel design and than you could identify with what is known on the race. I saw nothing of romulan design in the narada. It could have been any races ship and in the context of the story I think it was important to establish at least a Romulan idenity. All we had was neros flashback of a planet blowing up and neros wife. I understand your point regarding the weapons but you really belive a mining vessel manned by miners could lay waste to 47 klingon vessels and than 7 starfleet vessels?
Why not? It has faced more formidable opponents in the past - the aforementioned asteroids she's supposed to be mining. The two times we see a starship getting the chance to fire back, the Narada is hopelessly outmatched and close to collapsing. But her offensive power might keep most ships from getting that chance. Every Trek ship, or every bit of science fiction proppery or modelmaking for that matter, is done solely because it looks cool. It's just a big bonus that the Narada also looks like a suitable vessel for ripping apart asteroids. Timo Saloniemi
It's like complaining that a Navy vessel and a BP oil rig don't have a shared design lineage. But, after all, we do have a Romulan vessel that looks similar: http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x14/aenar_301.jpg http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x14/aenar_448.jpg
The pipe-filled, black-painted interior is vaguely reminiscent of both the Romulan drone ships in Enterprise and the Reman Warbird Scimitar from Nemesis, and the screen graphics seen throughout STXI (and Romulan glyphs in them) were based on those seen before.
...Which probably represented general Romulan shipbuilding standards, since it would have been unheard of for the Remans to build a ship for themselves. Shinzon participated in building that ship in a "secret base", but we don't know whom it was being kept secret from. Most of Romulus, probably. It's quite possible that the design of the ship came from Romulan sources, and that the only thing Reman about it (besides the keyboard symbology, perhaps customized when the keys were customized for Reman fingernails) was the fact that Shinzon's Romulan allies allowed him to use it for furthering their political agenda. Although I'd think the lack of interior decor might be a Reman addition. Or rather omission, as Shinzon would not have had the patience to decorate. Half-built secret warbirds and industrial platforms might look surprisingly similar when the vanity covers are left out... Timo Saloniemi
I will clarify what I meant -the established two narcelle all romulan vessels have shown to date (bar the Scimitar) and the avian motif BTW was the drone deliberatly designed not to be identifed as Romulan in origin that sort of undoes the whole sneaky lets get the allies killing each other purpose? I will agree the scimitar is indeed closer match. Timo I agree and have long held that the vessel was designed by the military for shizon for another devious Romulan reason, The Scimitar as it was meant to be used for the sole pupose of reaching earth for a knockout blow for the federation-if it was detected and destroyed before that, the Romulan military could claim it was of Reman manufacture and distance themselves pulling he had gone rogue etc. Since it was clear starfleet is still in the dark on a lot about the RSE/remans, i think that works.
Not from Uhura. Her exact words were "A Klingon Armada was destroyed... 47 ships." I don't. And neither does Uhura. More importantly, neither does Kirk, the only one who actually says "47 warbirds." Why not? A bunch of pissed off Muslim peasants can grab some AK-47s and RPGs and form an army; why can't a bunch of pissed off Romulans strap some explosive charges to a communications drone? Especially since they're firing them at ships that, in their time, would probably be museum pieces? Then I don't know WHAT the hell you're complaining about. You act like the only thing that can attack a capital ship is another capital ship... just because. THAT hasn't been the case since Pearl Harbor, and it turns out you don't even need military hardware to pull off a sneak attack; a bunch of psychos in a rowboat packed with explosives nearly sank the USS Cole, without having any access to a cap ship. There are countries in the world today whose navies lack "capital" ships of any kind, and depend on swarm tactics using small speedboats armed with torpedoes or suicide bombs. Does the Narada have starship-grade deflectors? Does it have disruptor cannons? Does it have a cloaking device, sophisticated sensors, advanced tracking systems, advanced transporters? No. What does it have? Lots and lots of really powerful self-propelled bombs. A 24th century scoutship would probably kick its ass. Yes. Why not? This aint dungeons and dragons, you get don't an automatic +6 to defend just because you're a warship. Which changes what, exactly? No, it's a mining vessel being run by a full-time terrorist who was something of a psychopath even in his own century. It's self-evident from the movie that Nero's ship was heavily armed BEFORE it traveled into the past. That makes him a heavily armed civilian with a bad attitude and a tendency to attack Federation ships without warning or provocation; in other words, a terrorist. Abrams sheds light on what KIND of terrorist, but it doesn't take alot of digging to see that the guy is basically out of his mind. Anyway, you want to know the WHY of things you have to go to background materials anyway. Nobody who didn't watch "Unification I and II" would have any idea why Spock was talking to the Romulans in the 24th century. It's not written AT ALL. It's background material that isn't presented in the film, both for the sake of brevity and the sake of relevance. We do not need to know every detail about Nero's background or motives, because ultimately, the story isn't about him, it's about Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Uhura. You want high level detail and exposition? Read the novels. Movies--especially when it comes to science fiction--ALWAYS omit background material for the sake of brevity. No you don't. You just finished a big long incoherent rant COMPLAINING about what was on screen. The problem as I said, is that you don't LIKE what was on-screen, and you don't want to. Insisting that anything that could possibly make it likeable is supposed to be on screen is another excuse to go on hating it. You dislike the portrayal of something you otherwise know nothing about and have never seen portrayed ever before? Fail logic is fail.