Moving up in rank

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by herofan, Apr 24, 2021.

  1. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Of course this whole (sensible) issue of field commissions opens a huge can of worm in the person of miles o’Brian. He’s supposedly still not an officer (after what, decades?!) but quite obviously most of the time act as if he was in command of one or more departments, either as CoP or CoE. Why?! Not to mention he used to fill the position of weapons officer in the first war against the Cardies but allegedly was never an officer.

    Of course there is no real explanation and his rank and position has always been extremely inconsistent.
     
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  2. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    Ops was a weird department anyway. Enterprise's ops chief was a lieutenant commander with 26 years in Starfleet, third in command of the ship. DS9's was an enlisted man, equivalent to a chief petty officer. And Voyager's was a spanking new ensign right out of the academy.
     
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  3. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, we're probably talking about two different kinds of Chief anyway: Chief Operations Officer in charge of Operations Department, and Chief of the facility known as Ops.

    And Harry could be a casualty replacement, like basically every other department head save Tuvok. Whenever a starship loses 25% of her crew, losses among top officers are likely to be statistically significant when the leading cause of death is an exploding console...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  4. Takeru

    Takeru Space Police Premium Member

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    I never understood Harry complaining that he was still an ensign, he was a department head, attended senior officer meetings, worked directly with the captain, he was very privileged aboard Voyager, what does it matter if he's an ensign or a Lt. commander? Or why was Tom's demotion to ensign seen as a punishment? He was still the pilot and did exactly the same job he did as a lieutenant.
     
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  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Also, it's not as if it should have worked, by precedent: Tom went from two to 1½ pips early on, and never amended his rascally ways!

    Punitive detail at Neelix' kitchen would appear much more practicable. Paris could still be the vital helming asset the ship couldn't do without, and derive enjoyment from that, but he'd have to dedicate his free time to the leola root instead to Princess Leola and the Mystery of the Manic Machine Monster. Janeway already regulated replicator and holodeck use, supposedly because that disciplinary mechanism did work...

    It would be all about tradition, I guess. Janeway wanted the crew to stick to the comforting formalities, and perhaps Starfleet back home strongly believes in demotion as punishment. After all, it does seem to believe in promotion as reward, even when there is no change in position or duties - in contrast to RW militaries that dish out decorations and commendations but don't disrupt the orderly progression of rank, position and career.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  6. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's the same as the Anakin Skywalker "You may sit on the council, but we do not grant you the title of Master" issue. If he's getting all the work, responsibility, and stress (and then some) of a full Lieutenant or LTC, then why is he polishing the single pip? Especially while observing promotion ceremonies for Tom and Tuvok.
     
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  7. arch101

    arch101 Commodore Commodore

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    Is it still true that you come in with a commission if you have some college? I knew a guy who, in the late '80s, had a 2-year Civil Engineering degree and went in as a LTJG. They put him right in the SeaBees. He did 5 years and came out as a full LT.
     
  8. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    I knew that an enlisted person with education could go in as an E-3 instead of an E-1. Didn't know it happened with officers too.

    Ensign to JG is a slam dunk promotion, so I guess it makes sense that could happen. My dad started as an ensign, but made JG in only a year.
     
  9. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    O'Brien once claimed he was offered an officer's commission but turned it down.
     
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  10. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    If he does lieutenant level work, he should have lieutenant level pips. It's obvious to anyone with a lick of sense.
     
  11. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My uncle went to Annapolis back in the '50s, but then this ex-Soviet spy or something went crazy and started blowing up nuclear facilities in France, so my uncle (who was still a cadet at the time) and a few of his buddies managed to break into the spy's experimental prototype aircraft carrier and stop him before he could blow up Washington, DC. Then they made my uncle Captain of one of the first nuclear submarines. It was in all the papers.
     
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  12. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Depending on the size of the department, it's perfectly possible for an NCO to command a department or unit within their own speciality.

    He was never a commissioned officer, a petty officer or chief petty officer holding that postion would still hold the title of Tactical Officer, particularly if they are also the most senior person in the section.

    Not as much as is often believed if you consider that he was only scripted into the show specifically from TNG's fourth season onwards, at which point he was explictedly refer to as a Chief Petty Officer and later Senior Chief Specialist (ie Senior Chief Petty Officer), and All Good Things retcon's any dialogue from the earlier seasons as he is referred to as "Chief O'Brien" throughout that episode. Any early unscripted rank insignia that suggest otherwise should therefore be dismissed as wardrobe error rather than his correct insignia of one black pip on the TNG style uniforms (First used by a teacher in The Child [TNG] and several times for other minor characters until given to O'Brien in Realm of Fear [TNG]).

    Indeed. Which given his long career and broad qualifications is not even remotely implausible. His stated reason -- a wish to avoid formal functions -- is less so, but certainly not inconsistent with his character.

    And Janice Rand did go from "less than an ensign" to an ensign and then either a LT-JG or LCDR depending on whether you follow TUC or Flashback (VOY), per dialogue.[/quote][/QUOTE]
     
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  13. Takeru

    Takeru Space Police Premium Member

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    It's not obvious at all, a promotion would just be an extra pip for Harry and nothing else, he wouldn't get more pay because he doesn't get paid at all (and money would be the only reason to insist on being a lieutenant for doing lieutenant level work, when people say things like that they don't really care about the title but the compensation) and not more responsibilities, not even better quarters because he already had the nice ones.
     
  14. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    According to you, there was no reason to promote Geordi, Worf, Dax, or Tuvok to LCDR. Their jobs didn't change, they had their own quarters, and they weren't getting paid either.

    If you truly believe that promotion doesn't matter, more power to you. But most Starfleet personnel seem to appreciate the recognition of a job well done, including Harry. There was no reason for Janeway not to give him that.
     
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  15. arch101

    arch101 Commodore Commodore

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    I see what you did there… :-)
     
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  16. hofner

    hofner Commodore Commodore

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    Poor Ensign Kim, he never could catch a break. I guess he was so bland, it just never occured to Janeway to promote him.

    A long time ago there was a thread, mostly humorous, in the GTD forum where people would come up with episodes that were never done.
    One poster came up with a VOY episode called "The Guy Within" where Kim was slit into good and bad Kim by the transporter but it turns out there really is no difference between the two.

    Robert
     
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  17. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    I wrote a whole list of DS9 ones many moons ago, mostly tongue in cheek. One had Quark decide to give himself long blond hair. Another had a sentient plant develop a crush on Keiko, so Miles rigged the transporter to turn it into salad.

    I could totally see Harry go evil and use his considerable intellect and technical knowledge to mess with everybody. At one point he rigs the replicator to spike Janeway's coffee with some of that stuff that makes a person totally compliant. Then, he asks her to promote him to lieutenant and she says that sounds like a great idea. And he messes with the controls to make Tom look like a lousy pilot, so he can steal B'Elanna from him, but he dumps her when he finds Klingon sex too rough. Then he goes after Seven instead.

    Eventually the effect wears off, and he becomes nice again. But hey, he's a lieutenant, Seven is his girlfriend, and Tom and B'Elanna have made up so no harm done. So, after a disgustingly short period of soul searching, he decides never to tell anyone.
     
  18. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Plus science officer Picard talking to Will and Troi in Tapestry.
     
  19. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Interesting coincidence: both "Tapestry" and "Lower Decks" were the 15th produced episode of their respective seasons.

    (Okay, I admit that might be a bit too geeky. But I believe I have earned my Trekkie card.)
     
  20. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    They perhaps should have scripted a line at the beginning of Endgame, with Janeway saying something like : 'I've seen you before, haven't I, Ensign? What's your name again?'.

    We see some of that in Living Witness. In the simulation, Evil Harry Kim is still a wimp, after punching a prisoner complaining that he can't keep it up all day.