Moore and Braga vs. Orci and Kurtzman -- Who Do You Prefer?

[Cyke101]

Same reason why the story for Empire Strikes Back came from George Lucas, but the script was written by Lawrence Kasdan?

I would think Moore and Braga had more to do than just pitch the story, though. Even if Robert Towne wrote the script, giving Towne a plot, a framework, characters to use, ideas to process, etc, is all part of the story, something Moore and Braga did

I'm pretty sure that Moore and Braga have mentioned before how their story was essentially gutted and the finished film bears little resemblance to what they originally conceived and wrote.

EDIT: Found this interview with IGN

IGNFF: And what percentage of the film adhered to the work you did?

MOORE: The first two acts are essentially the structure that we came up with and the story we came up with. The third act was done by Robert Towne, or whoever, so it's a different ending. The initial structure of scenes is our construction, but I don't think any of the dialogue survived. The credit reads "Story By" Brannon and I and "Screenplay By" Robert Towne, and I think that's fair. That's a fair assessment of who did what.

So, the retarded motorcycle chase (with a bike that mysteriously changes wheels) and the final fight scene weren't their work.

"Gutted" sounds different than the quote you referenced, though. For one thing, Moore up there says they came up with the scene structure (and therefore the outline) was there with two acts. That's still much more than simply pitching a story.

Even a first draft of a script by itself is a daunting task, and it sounds as if even if they didn't write the final draft, they did write something that was later deconstructed and built upon. Hence, they still wrote.

Also, even if the motorcycle chase and final fight wasn't their work, that still means the two-thirds majority of the film, even if in outline form, was their idea. So there's more to the story credit than just mere pitching.

 

[MvRojo]

^Yeah, I just joined this thread so I'm not privy to the debate that's been going on, but I know they did way more than just pitch the story. They wrote the first draft.

 

[GhostFaceSaint]

Why is it that Moore and Bragga did so consistently well together and so consistently terrible when they wrote alone? Anyway Orci and Kurtzman have my vote right now because they introduced an element forcibly left out of years of 'Trek, interpersonal conflict, making the characters in the new movie very three-dimensional in the film, whereas there were alot of one and two-dimensional characters in the 'Trek genre for years, though I shouldn't blame Moore and Bragga for that but Berman, the cigar-chompin formula guy.

 

[GhostFaceSaint]

One notable exception for an episode done well (and it was interpersonal conflict too) by Bragga alone was TNG's "Tapestry", a favorite of mine!

 

[Kegg]

Why is it that Moore and Bragga did so consistently well together and so consistently terrible when they wrote alone?

Eh. I'd probably rate Moore's "Tapestry" and Braga's "Frame of Mind" above First Contact, but that'd depend on my, ah-ha, frame of mind. I'm hilarious, eh?

Good point. But I think I can still detect weaknesses in both Moore (creative but too undisciplined and incoherent) and Braga (too stilted, phony and cliched) regardless of the constraint they are under. (That requires bringing TV into the mix.)

You want TV in the mix? The Fringe pilot episode was IMHO terrible. O&K penned, Abrams producing, it was cliched, rote, and boring. All I recall clearly right now is the requirement for the female lead to strip to her underwear being a thinly veiled bit of a T&A, which I might have been fine with had it been explained in a way that made sense.

 

[Cyke101]

^Yeah, I just joined this thread so I'm not privy to the debate that's been going on, but I know they did way more than just pitch the story. They wrote the first draft.

Oh, well then, welcome. I think part of this thread is now about semantics, as opposed to content!

 

[M'Sharak]

Why is it that Moore and Bragga did so consistently well together and so consistently terrible when they wrote alone?

Were they really consistently terrible, writing alone?

Also, please watch the double-posting. If you think of something else two minutes after you've posted, use the 'Edit' button to amend the existing post, rather than making a whole new one.

 

[The Wormhole]

One notable exception for an episode done well (and it was interpersonal conflict too) by Bragga alone was TNG's "Tapestry", a favorite of mine!

Actually, Ron Moore wrote Tapestry, not Braga.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I would actually like to point out that comparing Orci and Kurtzman to Moore and Braga doesn't make any sense seeing as Orci and Kurtzman did a TOS movie while Moore and Braga did the TNG movies also Orci and Kurtzman have so far only done ONE MOVIE, while Moore and Braga did two and several seasons on the show so that really isn't a fair comparison.

We´re not comparing their work on the shows, just the movies.

It´s fair to compare that.

Yes but Moore and Braga had experience writing for Trek before they did their movies Orci and Kurtzman DID NOT!

And once again any comparison between them can be invalidated by the simple fact that dispite Berman's attempts TNG IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE TOS!

 

[Cyke101]

And once again any comparison between them can be invalidated by the simple fact that dispite Berman's attempts TNG IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE TOS!

And a big thanks for that, too. TNG only became good once they stopped trying to be TOS. Two different entities, two different chemistries!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

What I do believe, is that people are more willing to defend this film as opposed to the one that preceded it because of issues other than the actual films themselves.

Not really.

It's just a far better movie than most Trek movies.

That's why so many more people enjoyed it - 'cause it's not like the world is divided between "smart Trek fans" and "non-Trek fans who can't tell the difference between good movies and crap;" indeed, the far more evident divide is between "Trek fans who will excuse a lot because they love Trek" and "non-Trek fans who expect a movie to deliver good entertainment regardless of what it's called."

 

[Broccoli]

Think of the awesome if Braga, Moore, Orci, and Kurtzman all wrote a Star Trek movie.

We'd have lots of 'splosions, pretentious philosophical issues, Borg, Klingons, Borg-Klingons, lots of humor (ranging from snobby high brow to flat-out juvenile), plot holes galore, lots of T&A, more time travel, technobabble, and, with any luck, three Spocks.

It would be glorious!

 

[Hober Mallow]

Were they really consistently terrible, writing alone?

Braga was. "Cause and Effect" was okay until you realized "The Tunnel Under the World" by Frederik Pohl was a much better version of the same story.

 

[Jeyl]

I have yet to see a story line by Moore and Braga that features a character who's scrotum is plainly visible. And don't think that was a Michael Bay move either cause Orci and Kurtzman both stated that was in their script.

 

[Bones2]

I don't think it's fair to call Braga consistently awful on his own at all. I know him and Berman are the popular hate figures now, but he wrote some of the best TNG episodes in my opinion. Yes, he's had some misses, but plenty of hits.

That's why I think he tried to include TNG in TATV. TNG is definitely the most popular spin-off from the original, and he did a lot of his best work on that show.

 

[M'Sharak]

I have yet to see a story line by Moore and Braga that features a character [whose] scrotum is plainly visible. And don't think that was a Michael Bay move either cause Orci and Kurtzman both stated that was in their script.

In the script, yes, but not a scrotum. Balls. Kruger's idea, and Bay liked it as soon as he heard about it.

 

[Jeyl]

I have yet to see a story line by Moore and Braga that features a character [whose] scrotum is plainly visible. And don't think that was a Michael Bay move either cause Orci and Kurtzman both stated that was in their script.

In the script, yes, but not a scrotum. Balls. http://io9.com/5299917/orci-and-kurtzman-talk-robo+testicles-and-transformers-3

Balls, scrotum, it's still a piece of s*** and these two wrote it and loved it. I do not want writers like that writing for Star Trek. They didn't do anything special for the franchise expect just throw their "what if?" idea out there that was more action oriented with little to no development for anyone.

Going up in rank does not equal character development.

 

[Cyke101]

I have yet to see a story line by Moore and Braga that features a character [whose] scrotum is plainly visible. And don't think that was a Michael Bay move either cause Orci and Kurtzman both stated that was in their script.

In the script, yes, but not a scrotum. Balls. http://io9.com/5299917/orci-and-kurtzman-talk-robo+testicles-and-transformers-3

Balls, scrotum, it's still a piece of s*** and these two wrote it and loved it. I do not want writers like that writing for Star Trek. They didn't do anything special for the franchise expect just throw their "what if?" idea out there that was more action oriented with little to no development for anyone.

Going up in rank does not equal character development.

Yes, what we need are more Klingon boobs instead. Bring on the nuDuras Sisters!

If I may interject, I'd say Braga and Moore were similarly only held back by the rules of tv censors. Moore pretty much stood aside while DS9 introduced a bisexual character who seemed to be so just for the sake of enticing the viewer, as opposed to being bisexual for a character-driven reason; Braga not only introduced the concept of sex-for-ratings to Trek (Seven, thank god she was played by a capable actress... the reason for the suit's tightness was never explained on the show!), but he also wrote a joke episode where a man gets pregnant and hijinks ensue.

I bring those two up because even though they're (rightfully) respected writers, they're not necessarily above the juvenile, either. In the long run, that's not a bad thing, but those two concepts were offensive (sex for ratings, irresponsible pregnancy as humor). And yes, they wrote for Trek. I'm sorry, but exploitation of sex and the unborn is even more offensive to me than mere body parts.

Lastly... since when does resurrecting a dying franchise NOT count as doing anything special? If anything, that's something short of a miracle.

 

[Jeyl]

Lastly... since when does resurrecting a dying franchise NOT count as doing anything special? If anything, that's something short of a miracle.

The franchise was never really dead, it just took a long time for something to happen. And going back to the original crew is just lazy.

 

[Gepard]

In the script, yes, but not a scrotum.

And did you listen to the dialogue during that shot?

Agent Simmons: "I am directly beneath..." *upward glance* "...the enemy scrotum."

So...yeah.