Monotheism...

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

You're not bent out of shape because I don't understand it. You're bent out of shape because I don't believe it.

But hey, take heart. Until earlier today, I didn't know what 'splaining was. Now I do. So in that regard, you have managed to enlighten me.

 

[Timewalker]

You're not bent out of shape because I don't understand it. You're bent out of shape because I don't believe it.

But hey, take heart. Until earlier today, I didn't know what 'splaining was. Now I do. So in that regard, you have managed to enlighten me.

Groovy. Now that you know what it is, would you friggin' well STOP DOING IT?

I know why I'm annoyed with you. You have demonstrated in spades for the last 6+ pages that you have no clue.

Or are you really that obsessed with pretending you understand my take on this not to realize that I've been reading what other people post to you and how you reply to them?

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

Clearly, we're both ready to be done with this discussion. So, I will allow you the last word and depart.

 

[Timewalker]

Yay.

 

[dupersuper]

The overarching theme I'm getting from your last, TW, is that by refusing to adopt your faith,

Atheism isn't a faith, any more than my not believing in the Loch Ness monster is.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Also, I was OK with the topic straying a little to atheism and religion in schools, since those are still related to the thread topic of religion, and it seemed like a natural outgrowth of the discussion. But, this:

Come to the United States. One of our founding tenets is religious freedom - including the freedom to not be religious - and our president is just letting everybody in right now.

Oh, please. Spare me the "land of the free" speech. The last time I was in your country was in 1987, at a weekend Doctor Who fan event, and have had no reason to want to return since then.

I wil give the "Land of The Free" speech whenever I please to whomever I please because it's more true for the United States than any other country on Earth, including yours, as you keep proving with your posts.

"Who's freer, Canada or the U.S." is wildly off-topic. If the two of you wish to continue debating levels of freedom in various democracies, please feel free to start a new thread, but it's out of place here. Same for coming up with ways to have Adriana LaGrange removed from her post. Thank you.

Is this still going on?

Uh-huh. Proselytizing of a different sort, then. I could ask a series of questions comparing our respective countries, but that would be off-topic for this thread.

As with all attempts at conversion, all you have to do is say "No." I have a right to praise and defend my country. I have no illusion that those I praise and defend it to have an obligation to be convinced.

I'm not obligated to view your "freedom of speech" thing in the way you view it. Your constitution and mine are different, with different things emphasized. Your rah-rah-praising of it falls on deaf ears as far as I'm concerned.

When a mod asks you nicely to stop something, it's generally a good idea to stop doing it. (There were further posts regarding Adriana LaGrange, too; I just didn't quote them all. And the personal back and forth has continued as well.) This may have died off on its own (the last post on this topic was about 12 hours ago, but I'm just seeing it now), but I'm going to give you both a 24-hour reply ban in the thread. You will both be free to continue posting after the 24 hours is up, but there should be nothing further about Canada vs. America or how to remove a sitting minister from office or whatever. And let's please dial back the personal stuff.

 

[Finngle Bells]

I'm amazed at how long this is going on.

I'm not so sure that a certain poster is understanding what the others are trying to tell them...

 

[Timewalker]

I'm amazed at how long this is going on.

I'm not so sure that a certain poster is understanding what the others are trying to tell them...

It was kinda obvious a few dozen posts ago.

 

[Chaos Descending]

This turned out to be quite the dumpster fire, which is why I bailed several pages ago. Sorry I was tempted to come back and add my Yankee tuppence even now.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Well, it's hard to have a rational discussion when people think you are only there to learn from them.

 

[Amaris]

Well, it's hard to have a rational discussion when people think you are only there to learn from them.

At least other folks are sharing their own experiences and perspectives. That's good at least.

 

[publiusr]

An atheist in the popular American imagination isn’t someone who doesn’t believe in a deity—that is uncle Bill who doesn’t go to church.

I think some people have a vision of an amoral, hellfire club villain without scruples—like the cad at the beginning of Hammer’s Hound of the Baskervilles or something.

A person with a shirt with puffy sleeves...that kind of thing. A very different image from the author of Letting Go of God.

Growing up, Carl Sagan was the first skeptic I ever saw who smiled. I had read some free thought literature, but each photo was of someone scowling, it seemed to my young eyes.

I saw the same thing on C-SPAN at a libertarian convention. There was one nice man—Harry Brown I think it was—but everyone else there seemed to have a face like a balled up fist. I have never seen a gathering of such unpleasant, almost feral men.

 

[Timewalker]

An atheist in the popular American imagination isn’t someone who doesn’t believe in a deity—that is uncle Bill who doesn’t go to church.

I think some people have a vision of an amoral, hellfire club villain without scruples—like the cad at the beginning of Hammer’s Hound of the Baskerville or something.

A person with a shirt with puffy sleeves...that kind of thing. A very different image from the author of Letting Go of God.

Growing up, Carl Sagan was the first skeptic I ever saw who smiled. I had read some free thought literature, but each photo was of someone scowling, it seemed to my young eyes.

I saw the same thing on C-SPAN at a libertarian convention. There was one nice man—Harry Brown I think it was—but everyone else there seemed to have a face like a balled up fist. I have never seen a gathering of such unpleasant, almost feral men.

Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov both referred to themselves as secular humanists. Asimov was known to be a congenial man who loved humor and jokes, so I'm sure he did a great deal of smiling.

 

[Swedish Borg]

An atheist in the popular American imagination isn’t someone who doesn’t believe in a deity—that is uncle Bill who doesn’t go to church.
...

I don't know of anyone in my entire family that goes to church. Some say that they sort of believe in a deity but not in any organized religion. So I guess "uncle bill" is pretty much everyone...

 

[Amaris]

An atheist in the popular American imagination isn’t someone who doesn’t believe in a deity—that is uncle Bill who doesn’t go to church.

I think some people have a vision of an amoral, hellfire club villain without scruples—like the cad at the beginning of Hammer’s Hound of the Baskerville or something.

A person with a shirt with puffy sleeves...that kind of thing. A very different image from the author of Letting Go of God.

Growing up, Carl Sagan was the first skeptic I ever saw who smiled. I had read some free thought literature, but each photo was of someone scowling, it seemed to my young eyes.

I saw the same thing on C-SPAN at a libertarian convention. There was one nice man—Harry Brown I think it was—but everyone else there seemed to have a face like a balled up fist. I have never seen a gathering of such unpleasant, almost feral men.

Conversely, I've seen many televangelists smile as they then plead with you to hand over your last dollar to receive the Lord's blessing. I've seen them smile as they gloriously proclaim that God's judgement will bring down destruction upon a sinful world. I smiled when I told people the Good News of the Gospel, one that at the time I understood to mean that there would be people who would fall short of God's requirements and end up in Hell.

A smile is no indicator of actual happiness, or even an internal ethos sustained by joy. Aesthetics are often used as shorthand to communicate satisfaction, contentment, and peace, where none exists. Some of the kindest people in the world are not often seen smiling, while some of the cruelest, most hateful human beings will paste on a smile and speak softly of their hatred.

I guess I can't knock it, because it works. Look at politicians and preachers who stand at their lecterns and pulpits and smile as they categorically separate humans from their humanity, and other the very people who should be protected the most. A soft word turneth away wrath, but it can also fortify your self-imposed chains.

The aesthetic is a powerful tool.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Conversely, I've seen many televangelists smile as they then plead with you to hand over your last dollar to receive the Lord's blessing. I've seen them smile as they gloriously proclaim that God's judgement will bring down destruction upon a sinful world. I smiled when I told people the Good News of the Gospel, one that at the time I understood to mean that there would be people who would fall short of God's requirements and end up in Hell.

A smile is no indicator of actual happiness, or even an internal ethos sustained by joy. Aesthetics are often used as shorthand to communicate satisfaction, contentment, and peace, where none exists. Some of the kindest people in the world are not often seen smiling, while some of the cruelest, most hateful human beings will paste on a smile and speak softly of their hatred.

I guess I can't knock it, because it works. Look at politicians and preachers who stand at their lecterns and pulpits and smile as they categorically separate humans from their humanity, and other the very people who should be protected the most. A soft word turneth away wrath, but it can also fortify your self-imposed chains.

The aesthetic is a powerful tool.

Actually, a smile was initially a prelude to an attack. It's showing the other that you're ready to bite them if they come any closer. If an ape smiles at you it's usually not a good sign. At some point in our evolution, it became an attempt at appeasement.

 

[Amaris]

Actually, a smile was initially a prelude to an attack. It's showing the other that you're ready to bite them if they come any closer. If an ape smiles at you it's usually not a good sign. At some point in our evolution, it became an attempt at appeasement.

Well, it's a genuine emotion. Humans smile when they're happy. Unfortunately, humans also know how to lie.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Well, it's a genuine emotion. Humans smile when they're happy. Unfortunately, humans also know how to lie.

I don't know if it's so unfortunate. If people didn't lie about how they feel about one another it's likely that there would be much more homicides due to anger and resentment than there are today. I don't know if we could maintain a stable society under these conditions.

 

[Amaris]

I don't know if it's so unfortunate. If people didn't lie about how they feel about one another it's likely that there would be much more homicides due to anger and resentment than there are today. I don't know if we could maintain a stable society under these conditions.

Lying is certainly a double edged sword, and where this topic goes would be an entirely separate thread, honestly, because it deals with the stability of society and how lying would help or hinder it. For example, we are lied to every day by people we put into positions of power based on trust, and many of us *know* they do it.

 

[publiusr]

Compare and contrast Penn Jillette with Jim Jones. Penn is probably what is called an anti-theist—also libertarian. He can rub folks the wrong way...looks like a hippie but might be farther to the right on taxes than staid Grover Norquist. Jim Jones was the polar opposite: he looked like Roy Orbison, and put people at ease. Wow...

This all comes down to belonging, and an aversion to outsiders. Anything gets too popular—I want to go another way.

In the back of SKEPTIC, IIRC, was an add about birth order. The middle kid was often the free thinker. The oldest more conservative. It all comes back to evolution and wanting to belong....or not