Missed Oppertunities in Voyager

[F. King Daniel]

This was meant to be a "what stories did you want to see" thread, not a "Wah! Voyager sux and f4il!" one.

 

[Anwar]

This was meant to be a "what stories did you want to see" thread, not a "Wah! Voyager sux and f4il!" one.

When it comes to VOY and criticism, those two are one and the same.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

This was meant to be a "what stories did you want to see" thread, not a "Wah! Voyager sux and f4il!" one.

When it comes to VOY and criticism, those two are one and the same.

And the same could be leveled at TNG if you want to play it that way. TNG had even worse episodes and could never be consistently good or bad. Voyager was always consistently one or the other. TNG was bi-polar beyond belief.

 

[froot]

You're the one that started it with the "When Janeway does the same thing, she gets in trouble!" bit. If you don't want to hear a reply, don't bring it up.

I don't mind the reply - I guess what I meant was: you're right, it is a debate better somewhere else. Plus Tuvix always makes me so prickly. I apologize.

I think these threads get contentious because it's like moths to a bug zapper - someone comes into the forums, sees a title like this one, goes "YES THIS IS MY CHANCE!" jumps into the thread and gets everyone's hackles up by saying the same old one-liners ("lol all of voyager was a failure"), and then it turns into an angry debate.

It's a broken record. Folks can't even make a good discussion thread in good faith without people just coming in only to post one-liners that were perhaps clever a decade ago. I feel like I could go back to when I was posting here in 2000 and see the same exact thing, and it's just so tired. Trust me, guys, we've heard it, I promise you, we've heard it. Criticisms are cool. There's certainly ones to make, and there's some really insightful ones here. But those dumb one-liners aren't it.

I don't wander into other forums dropping angry one-liners on every possible thread; can the same respect be shown here?

There's actually some fun suggestions here, though. And I am fond of things like Year of Hell being a year. It's a shame that never did happen.

 

[BillJ]

Voyager itself is one hell of a big missed opportunity.

A story that should've written itself was killed by mismanagement.

Yep, definitely a time loop...

I swear folks come crawling out of the woodwork when thread titles like this pop up. Where are you guys the rest of the time? Why... why even come in to this forum? It never makes sense.

The dead horse is dead.

This isn't the 'Criticism Free Voyager' forum.

Why shouldn't posters respond to topics that interest them?

I watched the thing from Caretaker to Endgame and it doesn't change the feeling that the show was 'off'. Reminds me alot of Star Trek 2009, so close... yet so far away. YMMV.

 

[Anwar]

It just came at the wrong time. It should've been after DS9, maybe a year or so (or if they absolutely insisted, just as it was ending). By then CGI tech would've been easier to do, they could easily re-use the leftover props from DS9, etc.

But UPN had to be dicks about it.

 

[sevenstars]

J/C of course. In some form.

What always stands out for me: the bizarreness of the episode "Good Shepherd." The idea that there were people who had been languishing aboard for seven years! I would have loved to see a few more episodes about how Janeway-- and others-- helped people adjust to being castaways; find a new purpose, direction etc. To me that would have been much more interesting than say, sustained Maquis/Starfleet conflict.

And I'm forever grateful there were no Mirror Universe episodes. Sorry, that's my one-liner.

 

[RyuRoots]

This was meant to be a "what stories did you want to see" thread, not a "Wah! Voyager sux and f4il!" one.

When it comes to VOY and criticism, those two are one and the same.

Never change, man.

It just came at the wrong time. It should've been after DS9, maybe a year or so (or if they absolutely insisted, just as it was ending). By then CGI tech would've been easier to do, they could easily re-use the leftover props from DS9, etc.

But UPN had to be dicks about it.

Honestly, I have to agree that this probably would've helped. And as a side benefit, all 24th century shows would've had time to air on their own (well, if DS9 started later anyway); Neither DS9 nor VOY had that chance, which is one thing I thought hurt both of them.

snipped so I don't take up the whole page with this post at this rate

My intention wasn't to "spout angry one-liners", it was just my opinion that Kirk's actions and Janeway's are different. I apologize if it came off as offensive. But, indeed, there will be other threads for talking about Janeway's decisions, so I'll leave this where it is.

There's actually some fun suggestions here, though. And I am fond of things like Year of Hell being a year. It's a shame that never did happen.

In addition, I loved how Seven and Tuvok developed a great rapport in this episode, and is sadly never really followed up on (at least not that I can recall). It worked so well! I really wish they would've developed it in the show proper.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

And for anyone who says they should've used the 8472 more, that was never going to happen because of how expensive they and their ships were. That was why the Borg/8472 conflict was never taken up again, or the 8472 were never used as a major threat outside of a few episodes, and why they were removed from the series permanently.

As for the Borg Civil War, the audience never would have accepted one lone ship having such a big impact on the rest of the Galaxy. No matter how well-written (or how other shows managed to do this).

That's really not the point. This thread is about storylines 'we' would like to see. I would have liked to see more 8472. I don't really care if it would have happened or not - it didn't happen anyway so who cares? It's futile to say that wouldn't have happened because we already know it didn't happen.

And I would accept one ship having a big impact. Look at the Enterprise, the Federation's flagship. It would be no different. I'm sure others could too. Are you sure you don't mean you wouldn't have accepted it? I don't think you can speak for the entire millions-strong audience.

 

[Anwar]

I always accepted one ship having a huge impact on the state of the Galaxy. But one of the major criticisms of VOY was that it DID have too much of an impact on the rest of the DQ and on the Borg.

Of course, in Blakes Seven the one ship (The Liberator) had a huge impact on its Universe and in Farscape the crew of the one Moya ship had a huge impact on the state of the Farscape Universe.

So what's the problem with VOY having a huge impact on the DQ?

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

I always accepted one ship having a huge impact on the state of the Galaxy. But one of the major criticisms of VOY was that it DID have too much of an impact on the rest of the DQ and on the Borg.

Of course, in Blakes Seven the one ship (The Liberator) had a huge impact on its Universe and in Farscape the crew of the one Moya ship had a huge impact on the state of the Farscape Universe.

So what's the problem with VOY having a huge impact on the DQ?

Exactly. I don't understand that complaint.

 

[Saito S]

I always accepted one ship having a huge impact on the state of the Galaxy. But one of the major criticisms of VOY was that it DID have too much of an impact on the rest of the DQ and on the Borg.

I've never really heard this criticism, excepting you telling us that this was a major criticism.

Of course, in Blakes Seven the one ship (The Liberator) had a huge impact on its Universe and in Farscape the crew of the one Moya ship had a huge impact on the state of the Farscape Universe.

Blakes Seven isn't Voyager. Also, Farscape isn't Voyager.

So what's the problem with VOY having a huge impact on the DQ?

Nothing. There is no problem. Who even said there was?

Several good "missed opportunity" ideas have already been floated. One of the biggest ones remains "Year of Hell" actually being an entire year. That could have been amazing, but alas...

As for me, I'd say they missed an opportunity by not just giving Beltran what he wanted: scuttling Chakotay entirely. I thought the character was one of the weakest from day one, and I would have liked to see him leave the show during season four (perhaps dying while saving the ship in some blaze of glory). Then, Tuvok could have become first officer, giving him more to do and allowing us to see more of his friendship with Janeway. Due to the constant "flying by the seat of our pants" nature of the ship, Kim would be pressed into taking on some tactical duties while they figured out what a more permenant solution to their crew shakeup will be. Ultimately, he finds that he likes tactical, and really grows into the role (this would allow us to see something we never saw at all: Kim character development). Meanwhile, Seven is eventually made an acting Ensign or Lieutenant (with a proper uniform to match, giving us the added benefit of losing the catsuit for good), and essentially becomes "Ops/Science". This is, to some degree, what she ended up being anyway; my idea just makes it official and dodges the problem in later seasons of Seven and Kim overlapping too much as far as what they contributed to the running of the ship. In addition, Seven having to adjust to being given an actual field commission would mean she would spend a lot more time being prepped for it by a Starfleet officer; this task would logically () fall to the first officer, meaning we would get much more development of the Seven/Tuvok relationship, which as RyuRoots pointed out, was a great idea that was sadly ditched after "Year of Hell."

Hey! Chakotay saving the ship and being killed in a blaze of glory could happen DURING the year-long "Year of Hell" story, as it runs from the middle of season 4 to the middle of season 5, thus setting up for all that other stuff throughout the rest of the series.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

That's a really nifty idea. I've been thinking about how the show might have been better if Chakotay was taken out of the picture lately, based on what I've read.

But then again, wasn't it around the sixth season that Beltran started getting vocal? If so, then unfortunately things would have to be tweaked around to make that work.

Who cares, though; it's all obviously hypothetical. Great ideas all-around.

 

[RyuRoots]

But one of the major criticisms of VOY was that it DID have too much of an impact on the rest of the DQ and on the Borg.

I have never heard that from ANYONE except from you, in this post.

So what's the problem with VOY having a huge impact on the DQ?

Uh...nothing? No one ever said there WAS a problem with it. I have no idea what this has to do with anything.

And before we derail this thread completely, let's not get into who critizied what, "haters" (emphasis on the quotes), or any of the usual nonsense. Make another thread if you feel like going in that direction. Not trying to mini-mod, I just know how these things tend to go.

And some great ideas, Saito S. That would play really well into a YoH arc, and give some good character dynamics to play up. And it'd indeed be the perfect opportunity get rid of that stupid, stupid, stupid catsuit. It wouldn't sting so much if we didn't see her look so damn good in a proper uniform in Relativity. Hell, I'd list THAT as a missed opportunity: not ditching the catsuit when she took on the effective role of an officer.

 

[TrueBlueMug]

-8472 should have been a threat for more than an episode and a half

I second this notion. Species 8472 were one of Voyager's few highlights for me. I wish they delved into fluidic space and then furthered the organic tech a bit more.

 

[Anwar]

The audience was already PO'ed enough that the 8472 existed in the first place, delving into them more would've just intensified that.

And any of those "One ship shouldn't be able to do this" complaints heard about Voyager (like in "Unimatrix Zero" or "Dark Frontier") is proof enough about the audience not being able to handle one ship having a major impact on the DQ.

Oh, and

Blakes Seven isn't Voyager. Also, Farscape isn't Voyager

Those are both shows about "One Ship all alone" in their Universes. Similar enough to VOY.

As for the Catsuit, all they needed was to repeat the explanation for it a few more times over the series: It's to regenerate her skin, since the irremovable Borg implants were destroying the tissue, and she CAN'T remove the suit.

And anyways, it's no worse than how Six from NuBSG and Boomer/Athena/whatever her number was were wearing dinky outfits and/or naked.

 

[RyuRoots]

snip

For one thing, I don't watch BsG or Farscape and don't really care about the explanation in this context; I still didn't LIKE the catsuit and wanted them to get rid of it. I think you're missing the point of the thread. It isn't "make apologies and excuses for everything people feel was a missed opportunity."

Tell us what stories YOU wanted to see that you didn't, Anwar. Or what you felt were missed opportunities. That's what the thread is for.

 

[zar]

And for anyone who says they should've used the 8472 more, that was never going to happen because of how expensive they and their ships were.

So what? This is simply the reason that it was a missed opportunity. Every missed opportunity has a reason, of course. I think you missed the point of this thread.

As for the Borg Civil War, the audience never would have accepted one lone ship having such a big impact on the rest of the Galaxy.

Yep, now I'm sure you missed the point of this thread. You're just making it another outlet for your ridiculous anti-hater rant. Look, we don't want to hear about Farscape, Blakes Whatever, or BSG. We don't care about your clairvoyant visions of what the audience would or would not have hated or accepted, or what you think the "major criticisms" are. I'm relatively new here and this is already getting very old. Seriously, do you really have to do this shit in every thread? All you do is repeat the same assertions over and over anyway. Why don't you just put them all in one post and put a link to it in your sig?

 

[Anwar]

I wanted them to keep using the Kazon and Vidiians, basically any major opponent, for more than 1 season. They should have kept appearing all the way into the 3rd season really.

I think they missed the opportunity to fix a big mess TNG left behind by not having the Borg be nearly totally destroyed by the 8472 war before "Scorpion", and by the end they should've all been destroyed except for one star system and a few damaged Cubes who now have limited regeneration and adaptability power. That wraps up the Borg threat quite neatly and leaves the door open for a few more appearances where it'd be reasonable for the Borg to lose in a way that isn't some "Sleep" contrivance.

The 8472 aliens should've mostly been destroyed by the end of Scorpion with only one small flotilla left too. That way both threats are destroyed/lessened to the amount that if VOY wants to totally finish them off they won't need to waste money on assembling some impossible armada and VOY can easily do it on their own.

 

[Cyke101]

But one of the major criticisms of VOY was that it DID have too much of an impact on the rest of the DQ and on the Borg.

I have never heard that from ANYONE except from you, in this post.

So what's the problem with VOY having a huge impact on the DQ?

Uh...nothing? No one ever said there WAS a problem with it. I have no idea what this has to do with anything.

And before we derail this thread completely, let's not get into who critizied what, "haters" (emphasis on the quotes), or any of the usual nonsense. Make another thread if you feel like going in that direction. Not trying to mini-mod, I just know how these things tend to go.

I have to admit, that sounds like a new complaint and I've never heard it before, so I also doubt that it's a MAJOR criticism (if a criticism created by an actual real person other than Anwar, that is).

It seems even sillier when one takes into account, as Tiberious pointed out, that Kirk and Picard's Enterprises had episodes about how legendary and important the influence of their one ship had... and that was already in areas of space chock-full of Starfleet anyway. It's to be expected that a Starfleet vessel like Voyager would have an impact to begin with where there is no Starfleet, further proven by the Equinox and its impact on several alien species (even if it was negative and very contrary to the Starfleet mission). The whole narrative premise of the NX-01 is dependent on Archer and the Enterprise having a unprecedentedly positive effect on the galaxy by being not just Starfleet, but the most important and one-of-a-kind vessel in the history of Trek, the one that started the Federation.

If there are people out there blowing a gasket because Voyager was having "too much" of an impact (seriously, where are they?), you'd think there'd be a much larger outcry about the NX-01 along those lines, since the vessel arguably did the same but on a much more frequent basis. But for all of Enterprise's bashers, I seriously don't think anyone's leveled that complaint either, much less turn it into a MAJOR CRITICISM.