Mirror, Mirror notes

[Physics of Trekkies]

Don't forget smirky Spock possessed by ... me. (Return To Tomorrow)

True. Also, you are such a dick.

Hahaha, but in all seriousness, does anyone really hate when writers allow actors to express range by tweaking the possibilities in like 8% of a total series? Ah well, everyone's mileage does vary.

 

[Noname Given]

You're forgetting "Naked Time" and "Journey to Babel" "The Way to Eden" "Plato's Stepchildren" and other times they deliberately got Mr. Spock or other vulcans to act out of character. Let's see, 9/79? That's more than 11%. 11% may not be a lot, but it's sure noticeable.

How many other characters did they come up with contrived circumstances to get them out of character? Kirk, in "The Enemy within" and "The Enterprise Incident." Way less than 11%.

Cheers.

I have to disagree with your assessment of "journey To Babel" as it showed both Spock and Sarek acting very much like your average Vulcan.

Also in "Amok Time", both T'Pring and Stonn were very much your average Vulcan.

My point? If there's one thing TOS did well it showed that both Humans and various alien species (such as the Vulcans) believed themselves to be better than they were in reality.

Vulcans like to think of themselves as completely logical and above emotional entanglements. Sarek, T'Pring and Stonn or prime examples of how Vulcans actually behaved as opposed to the ideal of how Vulcans liked to believe they behaved.

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

I have to disagree with your assessment of "journey To Babel" as it showed both Spock and Sarek acting very much like your average Vulcan.

Also in "Amok Time", both T'Pring and Stonn were very much your average Vulcan.

My point? If there's one thing TOS did well it showed that both Humans and various alien species (such as the Vulcans) believed themselves to be better than they were in reality.

Watkins like to think of themselves as completely logical and above emotional entanglements. Sarek, T'Pring and Stonn or prime examples of how Vulcans actually behaved as opposed to the ideal of how Vulcans liked to believe they behaved.

Related to these excellent points: TMP is my 2nd favorite film behind Wrath of Khan primarily because of Spock's character arc. I am a rare breed to be sure, but that is what it is.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

A quantum reality where events are mirrored as evil from our own?

In an infinite multiverse, literally anything can happen. Thus, the existence of the mirror universe as we know it, which follows the prime universe so closely but in an evil manner, is simultaneously no MORE and no LESS likely than any other universe.

 

[fireproof78]

In an infinite multiverse, literally anything can happen. Thus, the existence of the mirror universe as we know it, which follows the prime universe so closely but in an evil manner, is simultaneously no MORE and no LESS likely than any other universe.

Yup. I was unaware it was so difficult to grasp.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

Journey to Babel:
Anyone who refuses to speak to their father for Years,
is in a Highly Emotional state of mind.

Add a couple more:
Galileo 7: Spock is in a highly emotional state of mind when he jettison's the shuttle's fuel. he's essentially committing suicide on the off chance that a space ship is in visual range and looking. The writers were so intent on making that point that they had Kirk spell it out in the end of the episode.

Devil in the Dark:
Let's let a heavily wounded alien take over his mind so Spock can scream and cry and grieve.

Honestly: In the end, the character of Spock isn't defined by him being logical and unemotional.
The character is more defined from the times he goes out of character.

Scott Kellogg

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

The character is more defined from the times he goes out of character.

 

[Rhodan]

One aspect, however, that got seriously out of control, for example in Dark Mirror novel and especially in Discovery episodes, was the assasination aspect. From the original episode we can conclude that 1) Imperial Starfleet command can order assasination of the captain, if it looks like he stopped following orders and 2) Ambitious officers can try to kill him, if they have a hunch that nobody will investigate under these circumstances (or, as a Sulu, they can blame somebody else). At least in mirror Enterprise, Archer could do a simple coup as an instigator of a plan that was presented as profitable for the Empire. Compare it with Discovery, where it looks like duels and assasinations are just open everyday business.

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

Hey, look. 70% of the earth's surface is water.

Therefore, the earth's surface is more defined by when it's not land than when the surface is land

- said no scientist ever.

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

All kidding aside: Journey to Babel, Galileo Seven, Devil in the Dark are some of Spock's greatest moments in my mind ... you seem to forget that the writers established Spock was half human and never meant for Spock to act perfectly logical in all his moments. They never promised us that - implicitly or otherwise.

They showed us that Spock wanted to act perfectly logical all the time. His human half peeking through is a constant thing that makes him so intriguing as a character.

You started out with a point about when they introduced artificial means like "spores" and "alien possessions" to bust on the writers,

but you are going so far into a flawed deconstruction of Spock that makes me wonder how you can so fundamentally misunderstand him? Oh well.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Ambitious officers can try to kill him, if they have a hunch that nobody will investigate under these circumstances (or, as a Sulu, they can blame somebody else).

Agreed on the first part.

It appears that the Terran Empire's rules on this sort of thing are the same as the Klingons (either universe): Anyone can challenge a fellow officer (all the way up to the Captain) to a fight to the death, if they feel that the other is weak or has acted against the interests of the Empire. No "investigation" is necessary, because such challenges/assassinations are legal.

f you win, you move up in rank; if you lose, you die. Everyone knows this going in. That's the end of it, really.

(In the Terran Empire, if you are so bold as to challenge the Captain and win, you apparently don't become Captain; his/her XO would take command, and everyone else moves up in rank. That's what mu-Chekov said, anyway. Don't know if this is the case with the Klingons.)

 

[Dukhat]

In an infinite multiverse, literally anything can happen. Thus, the existence of the mirror universe as we know it, which follows the prime universe so closely but in an evil manner, is simultaneously no MORE and no LESS likely than any other universe.

Infinite multiverses are still governed by logic and physics, in theory anyway (unless you have a universe specifically defying this). So with logic and physics, you can't have humans living on the Sun in one universe and in another universe they can't because of the physical properties of the sun and human bodies. Therefore, you can't logically and physically have a universe where everything is identical but just in an 'evil' way, because things will start to veer off very quickly from the same starting point based on the actions in each universe.

Yes, I realize this is all fiction, but unless it's explained with logic and physics how a human can live on the Sun, it's not a believable concept.

 

[Rhodan]

Agreed on the first part.

It appears that the Terran Empire's rules on this sort of thing are the same as the Klingons (either universe): Anyone can challenge a fellow officer (all the way up to the Captain) to a fight to the death, if they feel that the other is weak or has acted against the interests of the Empire. No "investigation" is necessary, because such challenges/assassinations are legal.

f you win, you move up in rank; if you lose, you die. Everyone knows this going in. That's the end of it, really.

(In the Terran Empire, if you are so bold as to challenge the Captain and win, you apparently don't become Captain; his/her XO would take command, and everyone else moves up in rank. That's what mu-Chekov said, anyway. Don't know if this is the case with the Klingons.)

Mirror Chekhov was mentioning investigations, thats why I did .

 

[fireproof78]

Journey to Babel:
Anyone who refuses to speak to their father for Years,
is in a Highly Emotional state of mind.

Add a couple more:
Galileo 7: Spock is in a highly emotional state of mind when he jettison's the shuttle's fuel. he's essentially committing suicide on the off chance that a space ship is in visual range and looking. The writers were so intent on making that point that they had Kirk spell it out in the end of the episode.

Devil in the Dark:
Let's let a heavily wounded alien take over his mind so Spock can scream and cry and grieve.

Honestly: In the end, the character of Spock isn't defined by him being logical and unemotional.
The character is more defined from the times he goes out of character.

Scott Kellogg

Because he wasn't to he unemotional as he went. Nimoy played him as someone with intense emotions always under restraint.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Infinite multiverses are still governed by logic and physics, in theory anyway (unless you have a universe specifically defying this). So with logic and physics, you can't have humans living on the Sun in one universe and in another universe they can't because of the physical properties of the sun and human bodies. Therefore, you can't logically and physically have a universe where everything is identical but just in an 'evil' way, because things will start to veer off very quickly from the same starting point based on the actions in each universe.

Yes, I realize this is all fiction, but unless it's explained with logic and physics how a human can live on the Sun, it's not a believable concept.

But with infinite possible combinations of elements, one of those combinations will have amazing coincidences despite fundamental differences in society. It's not probable, but it is possible. If you roll the dice once, it's not very likely to come up. But with infinite rolls, one of them will come up that way.

 

[Hofner]

When a discussion about alternate universes comes up I often can't help remembering a Sliders episode.

In this Sliders episode, The protagonists think they're finally back in their home universe until they see that the Golden Gate bridge is painted blue.

Robert

 

[Scott Kellogg]

And that's precisely why I said, this stuff blows my suspension of disbelief.

Scott Kellogg

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

And that's precisely why I said, this stuff blows my suspension of disbelief.

Scott Kellogg

Hahaha, good try. Your claim was impossible, but you knew that. Hahaha

 

[Swedish Borg]

When a discussion about alternate universes comes up I often can't help remembering a Sliders episode.

In this Sliders episode, The protagonists think they're finally back in their home universe until they see that the Golden Gate bridge is painted blue.

Robert

Yes, I remember this one. It's one of the early ones, maybe the third or fourth one.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Infinite multiverses are still governed by logic and physics,

Actually, they're governed by whatever the writer says.