Miranda Class Phasers

[Saquist]

And yet we still don't know if the the phasers on Reliant were actually "full powered" so that's speculation.

That's why I lean on the initial attack and systems damage to support that speculation.

But wait, we see that the Reliant isn't putting all or perhaps any of her warp power into the phaser attack... (Plus, now that we've got some visual comparisons, Reliant's initial attack and damage looks just like the later battle where everyone is damaged and firing at reduce power levels.)

Do we even know if Reliant suffered power system failure after the first match and before Enterprise's end assault?

There is no reason for the ship to go dark if the mains or even the mains AND auxiliary power goes out. The ship's reserve power system (aka batteries) *almost always* kick in to maintain life support, lights, gravity, systems, etc. Heck, in "Mudd's Women" they were on only batteries to hold orbit, operate sensors and transporters, etc.

Those are emegency systems. (batteries) Such as emergency lights and life support. Nomal lighting would go out just like we see in Trek II and Trek III

I encourage you to watch the episode, "The Paradise Syndrome". And BTW, given your above questioning, why aren't you applying this to the Reliant's initial attack on the Enterprise and her firing "full phasers"?

I finished watching the episode.
I'm not sure how to take it.
The engines were already "strained" by the warp nine dash.
The phasers seemed to be part of that strain but they were fired in sequence suggesting burst were necessary instead of one big shot... The relays seemed to be the real culprit for engine failure but this 1960's explanation seemed cumbersome.

Other than that it doesn't seemed to be particularly relevant to Reliant's situation. They didn't experience a burn out we're question if Reliant fired at max intensity like Enterprise did in this episode. Khan's intent is well in good but to suppose merely off the intent implies that the phasers would otherwise carve up the ship. But what evidence is there of that?


From "The Paradise Syndrome":





Your argument would be valid if Decker said, "the Enterprise redesign increases phaser firing rates by channeling it through the main engines". However, Decker says specifically phaser power. Now, you can pretend that he said something different, as YMMV.

So then we shouldn't be speculating that Reliant has more powerful phasers, eh?

There is nothing wrong with speculating but which speculation has more support?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

There has NEVER been visible debris flying OUT from strike points, so this is a moot point. We have occasionally seen this from photon torpedoes, but the only OTHER time we see this is when Enterprise blows up Reliant's nacelle.

"Never" except two 2x.
Gotcha...

What?

We've been through these images. That's firing control not power, charge or transfer control.

And over his shoulder, to the left side of fire control, we can see the power control monitor. ALL FOUR SLIDERS ARE VISIBLE, as is part of the "warp power transfer" bar. Click on the link before you dismiss it.

Semantics.
Opposition with out supposition, reason or meaning is irrelevant. So Spock fixed it....

... Therefore it wasn't permanent.

Editing makes that difficult to determine.
When Joachim gives the report they don't immediately go after Enterprise do they?

Yes, they do. The very next scene AFTER that report is Kirk and Carol walking to the Genesis cave, some five minutes after Carol offers to show him "something that will make you feel young as if the world was new." This is followed by Reliant approaching Regula-1 and Khan wondering "where is she?" followed immediately by Kirk eating an apple, laughing about how he cheated at the Kobyashi Maru, only to be beamed aboard the Enterprise two minutes later.

And remember, before beaming down Kirk tells Spock "If you don't hear from us in one hour..." as a way of telling him to clam up and pretend to leave the area IF Kirk didn't immediately call him back after a minute. McCoy, not knowing this, later remarks "If Enterprise followed orders she's long since gone..." meaning that the conversation between Carol and Kirk takes place AT LEAST one hour later. This means that Reliant moved to intercept Enterprise anywhere between 5 and 30 minutes after Joachim's report.

So yes, Reliant went after Enterprise immediately.

Firstly Reliant wasn't impulse powered, she was warp powered.

Reliant's warp drive is not known to have been repaired by then. If it was, there's no evidence of it.

And we still don't know if the phasers on Reliant were actually "low powered" so that's speculation.

We don't even know that of Enterprise, it's something we can assume based on overall reduced power levels. If Reliant's phaser power wasn't reduced, then neither was Enterprise.

We still need inference.

That WAS an inference. Stop using words you don't understand.

 

[Saquist]

What?

Exactly.

And over his shoulder, to the left side of fire control, we can see the power control monitor. ALL FOUR SLIDERS ARE VISIBLE, as is part of the "warp power transfer" bar. Click on the link before you dismiss it.

What are you talking about? Dismiss what?
Maybe you should reexamine the beginning of the thread and get up to speed.

... Therefore it wasn't permanent.

Still no supposition, no reasoning or meaning for the contradiction. So even if you're right you're and you want to regard it as "not" permanent you still haven't solved anything but a detail.

Yes, they do. The very next scene AFTER that report is Kirk and Carol walking to the Genesis cave, some five minutes after Carol offers to show him "something that will make you feel young as if the world was new." This is followed by Reliant approaching Regula-1 and Khan wondering "where is she?" followed immediately by Kirk eating an apple, laughing about how he cheated at the Kobyashi Maru, only to be beamed aboard the Enterprise two minutes later.

And remember, before beaming down Kirk tells Spock "If you don't hear from us in one hour..." as a way of telling him to clam up and pretend to leave the area IF Kirk didn't immediately call him back after a minute. McCoy, not knowing this, later remarks "If Enterprise followed orders she's long since gone..." meaning that the conversation between Carol and Kirk takes place AT LEAST one hour later. This means that Reliant moved to intercept Enterprise anywhere between 5 and 30 minutes after Joachim's report.

K.
Spock says Main Power restoration in 6 hours/Days: Auxillary Power restored in 2 hours/Days

But Kirk does not go by the code. He merely says: If you don't here from us in one hour, restore what power you can take the Enterprise to the Nearest starbase and alert star fleet command. They beam down to Regula. Khan takes Genesis. As Saavik tries to contact Enterprise McCoy says if Enterprise followed orders then she's long since gone. So it's been over 1 hour since that conversation.

Then David takes everyone to the Genesis cave.
Reliant's impulse power is restored.
Genesis Cave
Khan finds no Enterprise
The fact that Enterprise is Gone means Enterprise restored power before two hours.
Enterprise is already gone But Kirk says It's two hours and Spock says right on schedule.

So you're wrong Carol's and Kirk's conversations wasn't an hour long it was minutes long. Likely Checkov was out for more than an hour and a half before that. it's inconclusive. Reliant could have restored power at the exact same time if we go by Spock as overestimating for the 2 hours.

Reliant's warp drive is not known to have been repaired by then. If it was, there's no evidence of it.

There is evidence. Joachim defies Khan on entering the nebula and says they have Genesis implying that it was time to go. They couldn't have left at impulse and expect Enterprise to leave them be.

Also Spock says they can still out gun us and out run us. So if you're in favor of the Warp means more powerful phasers then YES...they had warp drive.

We don't even know that of Enterprise, it's something we can assume based on overall reduced power levels. If Reliant's phaser power wasn't reduced, then neither was Enterprise.

We can assume all day but valid speculation is based on evidence. Reliant was fully powered before she attacked Enterprise, you need evidence to speculate soundly that the were reduced. Because other wise you're assuming fully powered phasers would have destroyed the ship and there is no evidence of that either.

That WAS an inference. Stop using words you don't understand.

If I don't understand then offer instruction instead of insolence and we'll see if you understand or if you're just blustering.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the power level board on Reliant's weapons console. The warp power indicators (which are visible over his shoulder and are NOT the fire control board where the button is being pushed) are dark.

Still no supposition

Supposition has to take a back seat to fact. The FACT is that Enterprise was not permanently damaged by Khan's attack, and that it repaired most of its battle damage in less time than Khan did. This fact contradicts your SUPPOSITION that Reliant's phasers were more powerful than Enterprise's phasers at any time during the film.

So you're wrong Carol's and Kirk's conversations wasn't an hour long...

I didn't say it was an hour long. I said it takes place at least one hour after they beamed down.

Reliant could have restored power at the exact same time if we go by Spock as overestimating for the 2 hours.

Which, any way you slice it, means Reliant went after Enterprise immediately after restoring impulse power, which answers the question you asked earlier.

You don't even know what this thread is about anymore, do you?

There is evidence. Joachim defies Khan on entering the nebula and says they have Genesis implying that it was time to go. They couldn't have left at impulse and expect Enterprise to leave them be.

Of course they could. As far as anyone on Reliant knew, Enterprise was a sitting duck, virtually powerless. The fact that it was able to maneuver at all was a total surprise to them.

Also Spock says they can still out gun us and out run us. So if you're in favor of the Warp means more powerful phasers then YES...they had warp drive.

Unless Spock was referring to Reliant's heavier torpedo armament, four tubes to Enterprise' two.

Moreover, it is uncertain whether or not Enterprise' warp drive was disabled at the time. Scotty's "I've got to take the mains off line" comes after the strike in the torpedo deck, and the bridge engineer's "Sir, the mains are back online!" immediately precedes a jump to warp.

Assuming either of them had warp capability, the one thing they didn't have was full power available.

We can assume all day but valid speculation is based on evidence. Reliant was fully powered before she attacked Enterprise...

The visual evidence you continue to ignore says it wasn't. If later strikes were fully powered, there's no direct evidence of it, and circumstantial evidence that it was NOT.

Thus the balance of all available evidence weighs heavily on the side of "not."

That WAS an inference. Stop using words you don't understand.

If I don't understand then offer instruction instead of insolence

Thou shalt receive instruction with thy humble heart and kidneys ajar.

 

[blssdwlf]

And yet we still don't know if the the phasers on Reliant were actually "full powered" so that's speculation.

That's why I lean on the initial attack and systems damage to support that speculation.

You can lean on it but the evidence doesn't support it. The insert of Joachim firing the phasers point toward little or no warp power being supplied and the physical damage is equivalent to later battles with reduced power output due to damage.

But wait, we see that the Reliant isn't putting all or perhaps any of her warp power into the phaser attack... (Plus, now that we've got some visual comparisons, Reliant's initial attack and damage looks just like the later battle where everyone is damaged and firing at reduce power levels.)

Do we even know if Reliant suffered power system failure after the first match and before Enterprise's end assault?

Well, they never restored warp power and were chasing after the Enterprise on their just repaired impulse. From Spock's line about "outrun and outgun" we know that the Enterprise's partial-main power (energizer bypass, no impulse was mentioned to be restored) still was less than Reliant's impulse/auxiliary power.

Those are emegency systems. (batteries)

"Emergency systems" aka "Reserve power" aka "Reserve Energy Banks" aka "Batteries".

SPOCK: Nothing. But for the batteries we'd lose gravitation and oxygen.

SPOCK: Main engines are out, sir. We're on emergency power cells. Casualties, nine dead.

SPOCK: All power plants dead, reserve energy banks operative at a very low power level.

ENGINEER [OC]: Everything's out. We've switched to reserve power. Lost all power in the warp engines.

SCOTT [OC]: We're on emergency battery power only.

SARATOGA SCIENCE OFFICER: All systems have failed. ...We are functioning on reserve power only.

Such as emergency lights and life support. Nomal lighting would go out just like we see in Trek II and Trek III

Yet strangely the Engine Room in ST2 (and all the control stations on the bridge) never goes dark Normal lighting seems to be automatically triggered to go dark (or red) by behavior.

I encourage you to watch the episode, "The Paradise Syndrome". And BTW, given your above questioning, why aren't you applying this to the Reliant's initial attack on the Enterprise and her firing "full phasers"?

I finished watching the episode.
I'm not sure how to take it.
The engines were already "strained" by the warp nine dash.
The phasers seemed to be part of that strain but they were fired in sequence suggesting burst were necessary instead of one big shot... The relays seemed to be the real culprit for engine failure but this 1960's explanation seemed cumbersome.

The Enterprise has 4 phaser banks. Each phaser bank apparently can fire (channel) the entire output of the warp engines in one volley (2 phaser beams). I took it that they rotated the phaser banks but each shot was the "one big shot".

Other than that it doesn't seemed to be particularly relevant to Reliant's situation. They didn't experience a burn out we're question if Reliant fired at max intensity like Enterprise did in this episode. Khan's intent is well in good but to suppose merely off the intent implies that the phasers would otherwise carve up the ship. But what evidence is there of that?

It's evidence that phaser power output is tied to the amount of power put into it. If it was not, Spock could simply of charged up the phaser bank with impulse power and that would have be sufficient as a "full power" attack. That didn't happen and Spock burned out the warp drive.

There is nothing wrong with speculating but which speculation has more support?

Until you can show that Reliant was firing at full power, the evidence supports low powered phasers were used, IMO

 

[Gagarin]

Supposition has to take a back seat to fact. The FACT is that Enterprise was not permanently damaged by Khan's attack, and that it repaired most of its battle damage in less time than Khan did. This fact contradicts your SUPPOSITION that Reliant's phasers were more powerful than Enterprise's phasers at any time during the film.

I would not claim that Enterprise wasn't permanently damaged - Starfleet Command seemed to think so.

K.
Spock says Main Power restoration in 6 hours/Days: Auxillary Power restored in 2 hours/Days

I believe "The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't
have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed.
Restoration may be possible, in two days, 'by the book', Admiral."

I read that restoration of main power may be possible, in two hours. The auxiliary power failing was merely temporary. Kirk seemed surprised that only partial main power was restored "that's it?", not happy that it wasn't just auxiliary. The topic of the "restoration may be possible" was about main power, otherwise I don't think it makes sense. Otherwise he'd have setup a time for them to come back in 6 hours. Anyway, partial main power was restored after 2 hours, which is what the goal.

 

[Saquist]

I believe "The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't
have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed.
Restoration may be possible, in two days, 'by the book', Admiral."

I read that restoration of main power may be possible, in two hours. The auxiliary power failing was merely temporary. Kirk seemed surprised that only partial main power was restored "that's it?", not happy that it wasn't just auxiliary. The topic of the "restoration may be possible" was about main power, otherwise I don't think it makes sense. Otherwise he'd have setup a time for them to come back in 6 hours. Anyway, partial main power was restored after 2 hours, which is what the goal.

I have to follow both the time frame and the flow of the context. Main power in 6 hours. There was no estimate for partial main power. I surmise that Scotty is doing his miracle thing. But if I presumed he was talking about main power then his 6 hour time line is completely false. Auxilary/Impulse was restored in 2 hours though.

You can lean on it but the evidence doesn't support it. The insert of Joachim firing the phasers point toward little or no warp power being supplied and the physical damage is equivalent to later battles with reduced power output due to damage.

That's because you're interpreting that as a charge setting for the phasers. In fact after seeing the movie last night I know those buttons mean nothing because at one point right before they fire (I believe it was photons) the Sulu pulls all the charge sliders down to zero) (after Kirk says Z -minus 500 meters) That makes no sense at all. IF those were torpedoes at zero strength...

Well, they never restored warp power and were chasing after the Enterprise on their just repaired impulse. From Spock's line about "outrun and outgun" we know that the Enterprise's partial-main power (energizer bypass, no impulse was mentioned to be restored) still was less than Reliant's impulse/auxiliary power.

what? Enterprise had impulse power...her engines were lit, they say at the end 1/4 impulse. What does energizers have to do with the propulsion system?

"Emergency systems" aka "Reserve power" aka "Reserve Energy Banks" aka "Batteries".

Yes, that's right.

Yet strangely the Engine Room in ST2 (and all the control stations on the bridge) never goes dark Normal lighting seems to be automatically triggered to go dark (or red) by behavior.

Emergency Procedures for Red Alert perhaps.

It's evidence that phaser power output is tied to the amount of power put into it. If it was not, Spock could simply of charged up the phaser bank with impulse power and that would have be sufficient as a "full power" attack. That didn't happen and Spock burned out the warp drive.

Even if considered true, how is that relevant to Reliant and Enterprise a full design make over later and 15 years?

Until you can show that Reliant was firing at full power, the evidence supports low powered phasers were used, IMO

I cannot agree.
Battle readiness would have the phaser at max destructive potential. Khan's instruction is not direct inference that the phasers were reduced in power. But also your photos and damage report tells us that Enterprise received far more damage than Reliant. If Enterprise caused THAT much damage (which you say was equal to Reliants) with low power phasers and we know from Spock that Reliant outgunned Enterprise then any strike from Reliant within the nebula should have been fatal. Rather we see the same damage lethality from Reliant's first Strike to it's last strike.

We have the verbal support of Spock (out gunned)
We have the visual evidence of Reliant's damage)
We have the damage report from Enterprise.

For the low power Reliant phasers
We have an unconfirmed visual of the dash board which you believe means that the phasers were reduced in power.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's because you're interpreting that as a charge setting for the phasers. In fact after seeing the movie last night I know those buttons mean nothing because at one point right before they fire (I believe it was photons) the Sulu pulls all the charge sliders down to zero)

Sulu was at helm, not the weapons console. The sliders he pushed at that scene were for engine controls, not phasers.

Battle readiness would have the phaser at max destructive potential.

Reliant was not at battle readiness when she opened fire the first time. And "max destructive potential" is not always the same thing as "max available power."

But also your photos and damage report tells us that Enterprise received far more damage than Reliant.

Unless you have a damage report from Reliant's bridge, that is not a claim you can support factually, especially since the majority of other evidence contradicts it.

 

[Saquist]

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the power level board on Reliant's weapons console. The warp power indicators (which are visible over his shoulder and are NOT the fire control board where the button is being pushed) are dark

I'm not sure what section you're talking about but if it's the slider controls, that's how they always look.

Supposition has to take a back seat to fact. The FACT is that Enterprise was not permanently damaged by Khan's attack, and that it repaired most of its battle damage in less time than Khan did. This fact contradicts your SUPPOSITION that Reliant's phasers were more powerful than Enterprise's phasers at any time during the film.

It's inconclusive that Reliant repaired before or after Enterprise. I will agree Reliant's phasers were more powerful.

I didn't say it was an hour long. I said it takes place at least one hour after they beamed down.

understood.

You don't even know what this thread is about anymore, do you?

And yet you haven't read it.

Of course they could. As far as anyone on Reliant knew, Enterprise was a sitting duck, virtually powerless. The fact that it was able to maneuver at all was a total surprise to them.

Watch the film. You don't know when in the film I'm talking about.

Unless Spock was referring to Reliant's heavier torpedo armament, four tubes to Enterprise' two.

It's possible.

Moreover, it is uncertain whether or not Enterprise' warp drive was disabled at the time. Scotty's "I've got to take the mains off line" comes after the strike in the torpedo deck, and the bridge engineer's "Sir, the mains are back online!" immediately precedes a jump to warp.

I was speaking of Reliant.

Assuming either of them had warp capability, the one thing they didn't have was full power available.

You're assuming.
Enterprise didn't have full power available.
Reliant never gave a full damage report. Spock saying that she out guns them implies they had full power. Even if it refers to torpedoes, you still need to power those weapons.

The visual evidence you continue to ignore says it wasn't. If later strikes were fully powered, there's no direct evidence of it, and circumstantial evidence that it was NOT.

I'm ignoring nothing.
I haven't identified the controls you speak of. If it's the controls I think you're talking about then it's not what you think it is.

Thou shalt receive instruction with thy humble heart and kidneys ajar.

I'll accept the appeal to emotion as a sign of concession through irrelevance.

Sulu was at helm, not the weapons console. The sliders he pushed at that scene were for engine controls, not phasers.

FALSE: They said Torp energy level.
In Red "Photon Torpedoes"
At this point I can say rightly you have no idea what you're talking about. Reread the thread. You're blustering again and that's not what the thread is about. If you can't read the controls that are that clear how do you think you can see accurately over Joachims shoulder? The only controls I see are the sliders off to the far left. We can't see the sliders position and if your assertion is that the warp power bars are not lit then once again that does not mean the phasers were more powerful. I haven't agreed to that. You can believe what you want but you act as though it's a foregone conclusion but you can't even use inference properly to know that power source doesn't necessarily dictate power output.

Unless you have a damage report from Reliant's bridge,

We do, "Photon controls, Warp drive and impulse power" knocked out by Enterprise. Reread the thread you're making mistakes we've been over already.

 

[blssdwlf]

I believe "The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't
have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed.
Restoration may be possible, in two days, 'by the book', Admiral."

I have to follow both the time frame and the flow of the context. Main power in 6 hours. There was no estimate for partial main power. I surmise that Scotty is doing his miracle thing. But if I presumed he was talking about main power then his 6 hour time line is completely false. Auxilary/Impulse was restored in 2 hours though.

As far as we know, Aux/Impulse power was never restored.

KIRK: What is working around here?
SPOCK: Not much, Admiral. We have partial main power.
KIRK: That's it?
SPOCK: Best we could do in two hours.

Notice that Spock never says they restored aux power even Kirk asked that's it?

That's because you're interpreting that as a charge setting for the phasers. In fact after seeing the movie last night I know those buttons mean nothing because at one point right before they fire (I believe it was photons) the Sulu pulls all the charge sliders down to zero) (after Kirk says Z -minus 500 meters) That makes no sense at all. IF those were torpedoes at zero strength...

Watch the movie in context (that's the goal, right? ) Why in the world would you want to fire photon torpedoes at any strength above minimum at POINT-BLANK RANGE in an environment that is so dense that a hundred thousand plus ton ship has to push its way into (with shields completely inoperative) ????? Perhaps Khan didn't think of this detail, but I'm sure glad Chekov did

what? Enterprise had impulse power...her engines were lit, they say at the end 1/4 impulse.

They never said any "impulse" power setting when they made a run for the nebula.

The mains (or in this case, "partial mains") are fully capable of driving the impulse *engines* just like they did in TMP.

SCOTT: Intermix set. Bridge, impulse power at your discretion.

KIRK: Impulse power, Mister Sulu. Ahead, warp point five. ...Departure angle on viewer.

What does energizers have to do with the propulsion system?

Energizers has everything to do with it. Perhaps you're not familiar with it because it isn't used in TNG?

In TOS and TOS movies, the matter/antimatter reactors feed energy into the energizers which charge/discharge the dilithium crystals in the crystal converter assembly which then provide power to the warp engines, phasers, etc. Take out the energizers, poof, there goes the ship's ability to provide main power to phasers, warp drive, etc. If the converter assembly is intact, then an emergency bypass can be rigged which will get partial main power.

In the case of TWOK, it appears that the partial main power that Scotty rigged up still provided less power output than Reliant's relatively undamaged impulse power system.

Until you can show that Reliant was firing at full power, the evidence supports low powered phasers were used, IMO

I cannot agree.
Battle readiness would have the phaser at max destructive potential. Khan's instruction is not direct inference that the phasers were reduced in power.

Khan's attack was a sneak attack that destroyed practically all of the Enterprise's power transfer capability. If he fired at max destructive potential, he would have not been able to gloat over Kirk. Where's your context here?

But also your photos and damage report tells us that Enterprise received far more damage than Reliant.

That's obvious, right? The Reliant hit the Enterprise far more times. But if you look at the width (not length) of the scarring the amount of actual destruction per phaser pulse is almost identical between Khan's initial sneak attack and later impulse powered strikes. Enterprise's phaser power actually improved a bit later on when she had more power available.

If Enterprise caused THAT much damage (which you say was equal to Reliants) with low power phasers and we know from Spock that Reliant outgunned Enterprise then any strike from Reliant within the nebula should have been fatal.

Nope. Reliant was fighting with only impulse power in the nebula. Any photon torpedo strike from the Reliant could have been fatal since it is not tied to power generation, but since phasers are tied to power generation a fatal strike is unlikely unless they hit the AM tanks or nacelles (like what the Enterprise did with Reliant's nacelle.)

Rather we see the same damage lethality from Reliant's first Strike to it's last strike.

Yep.

Again, the evidence is still pointing to Reliant firing lower powered phasers. Or more refined, phasers powered with the equivalent of impulse power or less, in the beginning attack

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the power level board on Reliant's weapons console. The warp power indicators (which are visible over his shoulder and are NOT the fire control board where the button is being pushed) are dark

I'm not sure what section you're talking about but if it's the slider controls...

It's not. It's the row of four red squares above the toggle switches for "warp power transfer." These are only lit when warp power is diverted to phasers.

It's inconclusive that Reliant repaired before or after Enterprise. I will agree Reliant's phasers were more powerful.

1) Actually it's ENTIRELY conclusive that Reliant's impulse engines were not repaired before Enterprise' engines. This is explicitly shown in the film.

2) I'm sure you would agree with this if anyone here other than you was still attempting to claim that Reliant's phasers were at any time more powerful than Enterprise. ALL the evidence suggests rough parity in output. The only question on the table is why. Are their phasers normally at equal power, or did the circumstances of Reliant's first attack plus battle damage reduce both ships to an equal level? For THIS, we have no evidence either way, the only thing we know for sure is that their weapons are equally effective throughout the film.

Watch the film. You don't know when in the film I'm talking about.

Three seconds after Kirk taunts Khan with "We tried it once your way, Khan, are you game for a rematch?" Khan bellows his famous "Full powaaaa!!!! Damn you!"

But Joachim is ALREADY hesitant to enter the Nebula, warning Khan "We daren't follow them into the nebula, Sir. Our shields would be useless." Crippled or not, he knows that Enterprise has at least a fighting chance inside the nebula and he's not going to risk his life to finish them off if he can help it. The possibility of Enterprise pursuing Reliant is not one ANYONE is even remotely considering; it's really a choice between "Finish them" and "allow them to escape."

You're assuming.

And it's an extremely safe assumption given the prior events of the film, AND given the relative battle damage inflicted. Reliant's phaser strike in the torpedo bay was certainly not MORE powerful than it had been in the first attack.

Enterprise didn't have full power available.
Reliant never gave a full damage report. Spock saying that she out guns them implies they had full power. Even if it refers to torpedoes, you still need to power those weapons.

Except the lethality of torpedoes--unlike phasers--is independent of the power fed into them. And before you raise another complaint, we KNOW that phasers depend on warp power in order to operate, from already mentioned precedents, plus "Elaan of Troyus" which suggests the loss of warp power directly implies the loss of phaser power. In TOS, it is at least possible to recharge a phaser bank using sources OTHER than the warp drive, but it is clear that this cannot be done immediately--or even quickly--without it.

I'm ignoring nothing.
I haven't identified the controls you speak of.

Look at the band on Joachim's wrist.
Look at the three green circles above his wrist.
Above that, is nothing. The indicators are dark. Meaning only one of the four power transfers to the phaser banks was engaged.

I'll accept the appeal to emotion as a sign of concession through irrelevance.

Why? Are you emotions acting up again?

Sulu was at helm, not the weapons console. The sliders he pushed at that scene were for engine controls, not phasers.

FALSE: They said Torp energy level.
In Red "Photon Torpedoes"

Which, even if that were true, changes WHAT about the warp power indicators?

The only controls I see are the sliders off to the far left.

And BELOW that, you have the warp power indicator, which is dark, indicating little or no power transferred to phasers.

We can't see the sliders position and if your assertion is that the warp power bars are not lit then once again that does not mean the phasers were more powerful.

And once again, IT DOES. The example from "Paradise Syndrome" is explicit in that implication, as is the case in "Elaan of Troyus" where "no warp = no phasers." Now that's just the cold hard facts: phaser output depends on how much power you feed into them.

Is this because phasers have capacitors that drain more quickly at higher outputs? Is it because phasers run directly off the warp drives a la TMP? Is it a combination of both? We don't know. But we KNOW that phaser power depends on engine power; that relationship is explicit and indisputable.

Unless you have a damage report from Reliant's bridge,

We do, "Photon controls, Warp drive and impulse power" knocked out by Enterprise.[/quote]
I meant the damage report ON THE BRIDGE. I.E. the damage indicator readout that Spock points to after the first attack. The only VERBAL report Kirk ever gets is "Main energizer's out!" followed shortly by "Just the battery, Sir! I can have auxiliary power in a few minutes!"

"Main energizer" is equivalent here to "warp drive," and we know that the impulse engines are part of the auxiliary power system. We do not know how badly Reliant's engines were damaged... but then, we don't know that of Enterprise either. All we know is:

Reliant lost warp drive, Enterprise lost main power
Reliant lost impulse, Enterprise lost auxiliary power
Reliant lost photon control. Enterprise didn't.

 

[Saquist]

As far as we know, Aux/Impulse power was never restored.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion since the impulse engines were clearly working the moment Khan Noticed Enterprise wasn't on station where they left it.

Notice that Spock never says they restored aux power even Kirk asked that's it?

He doesn't have to we see the impulse engines are on line.

Watch the movie in context (that's the goal, right? )

Correct.

Why in the world would you want to fire photon torpedoes at any strength above minimum at POINT-BLANK RANGE in an environment that is so dense that a hundred thousand plus ton ship has to push its way into (with shields completely inoperative) ????? Perhaps Khan didn't think of this detail, but I'm sure glad Chekov did

I don't understand...

They never said any "impulse" power setting when they made a run for the nebula.

No they didn't but Reliant had impulse so Enterprise had to

have it too. And...we see the impulse engines firing...

The mains (or in this case, "partial mains") are fully capable of driving the impulse *engines* just like they did in TMP.

That didn't happen in TMP.
Warp Intermix failed. The impulse engines pushed enterprise to .98 of warp 1. Not only that but it's academic at this point. Enterprise was only capable of 1/4 impulse power...the engines themselves were damaged. The fact that main power was down at the end and Enterprise was limping away at 1/4 impulse tells us that they did indeed have impulse Auxilary power....you can argue when they had it but as far as we know those impulse engines were ready to go other wise speed wouldn't have been an issue if they could simply feed warp power through the impulse engines.

SCOTT: Intermix set. Bridge, impulse power at your discretion.

KIRK: Impulse power, Mister Sulu. Ahead, warp point five. ...Departure angle on viewer.

I always understood this to mean that the impulse engines were feeding the warp engines. He does say "Impulse power, not warp power.

Energizers has everything to do with it. Perhaps you're not familiar with it because it isn't used in TNG?

Probably.
I'm not well versed in TOS.

In TOS and TOS movies, the matter/antimatter reactors feed energy into the energizers which charge/discharge the dilithium crystals in the crystal converter assembly which then provide power to the warp engines, phasers, etc. Take out the energizers, poof, there goes the ship's ability to provide main power to phasers, warp drive, etc. If the converter assembly is intact, then an emergency bypass can be rigged which will get partial main power.

I still don't understand what Energizers are and what they do.
Are they like EPS taps?

Nope. Reliant was fighting with only impulse power in the nebula. Any photon torpedo strike from the Reliant could have been fatal since it is not tied to power generation, but since phasers are tied to power generation a fatal strike is unlikely unless they hit the AM tanks or nacelles (like what the Enterprise did with Reliant's nacelle.)

It doesn't matter. Spock says they were out gunned.
Outgunned: 1. to surpass in fire power
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/outgunned

We know Enterprise had more phasers than Reliant. So it doesn't mean out shoot. It means Reliant's phasers were more powerful. And since you insist on the warp power/to phaser force relationship that means Reliant's phasers were not just powered by warp power but the whole time Reliant was indeed more powerful as the images of the blast on Enterprise show.

If I'm correct this is open & shut.

It's not. It's the row of four red squares above the toggle switches for "warp power transfer." These are only lit when warp power is diverted to phasers.

Which still means nothing.
We have no proof at all that warp power to phasers diminishes their effectiveness. In fact the last two sliders above that tells us the true power of the phasers was at max.

1) Actually it's ENTIRELY conclusive that Reliant's impulse engines were not repaired before Enterprise' engines. This is explicitly shown in the film.

Negative, no Time Frame is given.

2) I'm sure you would agree with this if anyone here other than you was still attempting to claim that Reliant's phasers were at any time more powerful than Enterprise.

You're the one that said it.


Three seconds after Kirk taunts Khan with "We tried it once your way, Khan, are you game for a rematch?" Khan bellows his famous "Full powaaaa!!!! Damn you!"

But Joachim is ALREADY hesitant to enter the Nebula, warning Khan "We daren't follow them into the nebula, Sir. Our shields would be useless." Crippled or not, he knows that Enterprise has at least a fighting chance inside the nebula and he's not going to risk his life to finish them off if he can help it. The possibility of Enterprise pursuing Reliant is not one ANYONE is even remotely considering; it's really a choice between "Finish them" and "allow them to escape."

I won't contradict that.
Yet, the implication is that they can indeed leave. No repairs are apparently standing in the way.

And it's an extremely safe assumption given the prior events of the film, AND given the relative battle damage inflicted. Reliant's phaser strike in the torpedo bay was certainly not MORE powerful than it had been in the first attack.

That is an incomplete and false analysis.
Reliant brought one one phaser to bare (and you know that) while previously Reliant had both beams pinpointed on Enterprise. But everytime Reliant fired on Enterprise they loss main power. Enterprise can't say the same.

Except the lethality of torpedoes--unlike phasers--is independent of the power fed into them. And before you raise another complaint, we KNOW that phasers depend on warp power in order to operate,

Also False.
Enterprise clearly suffers from a lack of main power in the first battle and the phasers INFACT....still operate.

Why? Are you emotions acting up again?

Why?

...because you have arrived with much ego and much blustering on what was an amicable discussion, you make accusations and when challenged you've retreated behind emotion icons and obscure metaphor. You were straightforward when you thought you were right but now you're evasive. So I'm to take the word of a coward as to how to use a vocabulary item? I don't think so. I won't chase your red herrings. And if you maintain the behavior you may make reply to anyone and everyone else but me because I will rule you irrelevant and worthy of nothing but to be dismissed out of hand. Me continuing is an act of patience in your favor. I suggest you take advantage of it instead of abusing it.

Which, even if that were true,

I didn't expect you to admit it.

changes WHAT about the warp power indicators?

I'm going to indulge you here because I don't know if you're being DAFT or stubborn so to avoid prejudicing you I'll repeat myself. If Sulu pulls down all the photon charge slide controls and Enterprise's photons blow away the Roll bar tubes and blow away the warp engine and we've seen Reliant's torpedo against Enterprise causes no hull breech at all...it means making a case by means of the control panels for warp power or not just became hugely irrelevant.

And once again, IT DOES. The example from "Paradise Syndrome" is explicit in that implication, as is the case in "Elaan of Troyus" where "no warp = no phasers." Now that's just the cold hard facts: phaser output depends on how much power you feed into them.

It's not the same ship. It's not even the same series.
If you had read what me and Blssdwlf were talking about we pretty much agreed that considering only this movie for relevant data on power and phasers was fair because it's irrational to expect the FX and the explaination from two different productions to be the same.

I understand what the both or you are saying on this issue. But I have a hard time being that any explanation from TOS as logical and well though out when there are HUGE errors logistics. Blssdwlf talked about Paradise Syndrome. In that episode Enterprise races at warp nine to meet an asteroid only 2 month's away at it's speed and that burns out the engines for the phasers? That makes no sense at all. They should have been at warp for mere seconds...(and that threatens to burn out the star drive?) Now IF you can explain why the engines are so weak... but these sort of errors are the rule rather than the exception in TOS.

Is this because phasers have capacitors that drain more quickly at higher outputs? Is it because phasers run directly off the warp drives a la TMP? Is it a combination of both? We don't know. But we KNOW that phaser power depends on engine power; that relationship is explicit and indisputable.

I meant the damage report ON THE BRIDGE. I.E. the damage indicator readout that Spock points to after the first attack. The only VERBAL report Kirk ever gets is "Main energizer's out!" followed shortly by "Just the battery, Sir! I can have auxiliary power in a few minutes!"

"Main energizer" is equivalent here to "warp drive," and we know that the impulse engines are part of the auxiliary power system. We do not know how badly Reliant's engines were damaged... but then, we don't know that of Enterprise either. All we know is:

Reliant lost warp drive, Enterprise lost main power
Reliant lost impulse, Enterprise lost auxiliary power
Reliant lost photon control. Enterprise didn't.

Why do we need visual display? All that led to was a continuity error between the model damage and that indicator. How did this inconsistency become a superior standard over just looking at the ships move and listening to damaged and recovered systems?

Negative:
Reliant Damaged Warpdrive
Reliant Damaged partial impulse power (the engines are lit while Reliant retreats)
Reliant Lost photon control.

Enterprise Lost shields
Enterprise Lost ALL impulse Power and Auxilary power
Enterprise Lost Main Power

This isn't even remotely the same.
Reliant never lost main power
Reliant never lost Aux Power She merely couldn't fire and her shields were overridden.

Enterprise was dead in the water.
No power
No shields
No weapons.


One ship could move.
One couldn't.
One ship had power
The other ship didn't.

Why is this so complicated?

 

[blssdwlf]

As far as we know, Aux/Impulse power was never restored.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion since the impulse engines were clearly working the moment Khan Noticed Enterprise wasn't on station where they left it.
He doesn't have to we see the impulse engines are on line.

Watch TMP. You can clearly see that the impulse engines can be powered by the mains as they depart Earth.

Warp Intermix failed. The impulse engines pushed enterprise to .98 of warp 1.

In TMP, the mains powered the impulse engines to Warp 0.5. Going to Warp 1 was with the warp engines. After the wormhole, the Enterprise dropped to Warp 0.8.

Not only that but it's academic at this point. Enterprise was only capable of 1/4 impulse power...the engines themselves were damaged. The fact that main power was down at the end and Enterprise was limping away at 1/4 impulse tells us that they did indeed have impulse Auxilary power....

At no point did anyone say what the Enterprise's top "impulse" speed was. Actually, at no point after Regula 1 did they refer to aux power or impulse power since it wasn't restored. And when the Enterprise was limping away from the about to explode Reliant it was probably being driven on batteries.

you can argue when they had it but as far as we know those impulse engines were ready to go other wise speed wouldn't have been an issue if they could simply feed warp power through the impulse engines.

If they had impulse power they would've rocketed out of there like "The Squire of Gothos". We have dialogue pointing out (from Spock) that the amount of power that Scotty had restored was still less than Reliant's relatively undamaged impulse systems. So whatever power they had feeding to the impulse engines was less than Reliant's. After Scotty took the mains offline the Enterprise was barely moving to get out of the area without aux power driving them.

I'm not well versed in TOS.

I recommend not using TNG as the basis for figuring out the mechanics of TOS/TOS Movies. There are some very different approaches taken on the same "tech" by the different production groups.

I still don't understand what Energizers are and what they do.
Are they like EPS taps?

"EPS taps" (TNG) are the equivalent to TOS "Circuits". The energizers have many circuits leading out of them to power various systems. In TNG, the warp core is where the matter/antimatter meet at the dilithium regulator which produces warp plasma which then gets split out eventually into the EPS taps. In TOS, the m/am energy is channeled to charge up the dilithium crystals in the energizers which are then simultaneously discharged as usable energy into the ship's systems.

Remember that Spock says they were outgunned and could be outrun as well. Reliant's impulse power was still more than the PARTIAL main power the Enterprise had.

SPOCK: She can out-run us and out-gun us.

We know Enterprise had more phasers than Reliant. So it doesn't mean out shoot. It means Reliant's phasers were more powerful.

Reliant Intact Impulse power output > Enterprise repaired PARTIAL Main power output

is the same as saying, Due to damage:

Reliant top speed > Enterprise top speed
AND
Reliant phaser output > Enterprise phaser output

Referring back to our original disagreement, TWOK gives no ability to tell if

Undamaged Reliant firing Phasers > Undamaged Enterprise firing Phasers.

If Sulu pulls down all the photon charge slide controls and Enterprise's photons blow away the Roll bar tubes and blow away the warp engine and we've seen Reliant's torpedo against Enterprise causes no hull breech at all...it means making a case by means of the control panels for warp power or not just became hugely irrelevant.

That's Chekov pulling the photon charge slider controls.

In both instances where Enterprise hits the Reliant with the low powered photons the explosions (or destruction) was from what it hit (the torpedo pod, the volatile warp nacelle). It's like you attributing Reliant's initial phaser attack to being more powerful by looking at the energizer exploding and releasing massive energy even though the actual physical damage was minimal. If we could look behind the torpedo pod at the impact point when it was hit by Enterprise's torpedo, it probably would've not left a mark

If Reliant's torpedo from the first attack hit the Enterprise's nacelle we would've seen similar results but Reliant's torpedo didn't aim for something that was explosive.

To better explain why low-powered photon torpedoes are good in the nebula:

1. The Enterprise and Reliant had to push into it after being slowed down upon hitting the edge of the nebula. It's very dense gas environment.
2. Photon torpedoes at any power level above low is already dangerous do to it's volume effect. If you detonate a powered or full powered torpedo at close range you already run the risk of damaging or destroying yourself.
3. Compound high explosive with dense gas environment with no shields. Firing an explosive photon torpedo in that environment at point-blank range will have consequences on the firing ship. Think about it. That's why Enterprise switched to low powered photons. They were set to be effectively cannonballs.

And once again, IT DOES. The example from "Paradise Syndrome" is explicit in that implication, as is the case in "Elaan of Troyus" where "no warp = no phasers." Now that's just the cold hard facts: phaser output depends on how much power you feed into them.

It's not the same ship. It's not even the same series.
If you had read what me and Blssdwlf were talking about we pretty much agreed that considering only this movie for relevant data on power and phasers was fair because it's irrational to expect the FX and the explaination from two different productions to be the same.

Actually, I am referencing things from TOS and the previous TOS movie because they actually match up. I am NOT referencing TNG or later productions because they decided to do something totally different but still keep the same tech names. TWOK does very well in maintaining continuity with TOS in regards to tech.

I understand what the both or you are saying on this issue. But I have a hard time being that any explanation from TOS as logical and well though out when there are HUGE errors logistics. Blssdwlf talked about Paradise Syndrome. In that episode Enterprise races at warp nine to meet an asteroid only 2 month's away at it's speed and that burns out the engines for the phasers? That makes no sense at all. They should have been at warp for mere seconds...(and that threatens to burn out the star drive?) Now IF you can explain why the engines are so weak... but these sort of errors are the rule rather than the exception in TOS.

The warp speeds are consistent within TOS. Effective FTL speed is significantly reduced when within a few AUs of the sun/star, but very fast between systems (faster than TNG+) and about the same with TNG between galaxies.

I've mapped out a comparison in a previous thread:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=140446

In TNG, the effective FTL speeds were made to be the same regardless of where you were at. However, they were also made to be much slower as well.

Just for grins, in TWOK:

Reliant hit the Enterprise with low powered phaser attack: 14s onscreen and another ~18s offscreen, possibly with photons as well

Enterprise's battery powered attack: ~4s onscreen

In the Mutara Nebula, Enterprise with Partial Main power (less than Reliant's Impulse power) fired phasers for 1s and missed, then later while evading to starboard fired and connected with 3s of phaser fire to Reliant's bridge. After the mains go offline, Enterprise fires <1s of phaser fire that hit Reliant's nacelle.

In the Mutara Nebula, Reliant hit the Enterprise with her impulse-powered phasers for 6s across the torpedo bay.

Overall, Reliant had a minimal of 20s (and upwards of 38s) of phaser hits on the Enterprise. Enterprise had less than 8s of phaser hits on Reliant.

Let's look at the numbers in context. Khan spends 14-32s of phaser fire damaging or destroying Enterprise's main energizers and auxiliary power to make Kirk helpless. He *nearly* succeeds but didn't anticipate Kirk being able to get two precise battery-powered shots in through lowered shields that destroyed his photon controls and warp drive.

Later in the Mutara Nebula battle, Spock's statement of Reliant still outgunning and outrunning the Enterprise is correct. Enterprise had to rig bypasses to just get only partial main power which was still less than Reliant's impulse power output. In the head-on exchange, Reliant fired her phasers twice as long as the Enterprise did. And when the Enterprise mains are taken offline, Enterprise only gets off about a second of phaser fire and relies on her photon torpedoes. Enterprise wins because she is able to surprise the Reliant and take out key components while causing massive collateral damage.

 

[Saquist]

Watch TMP. You can clearly see that the impulse engines can be powered by the mains as they depart Earth.

What does "The Mains" mean to you?
The word is never used in The Motion Picture.

In TMP, the mains powered the impulse engines to Warp 0.5. Going to Warp 1 was with the warp engines. After the wormhole, the Enterprise dropped to Warp 0.8.

He says Impulse Power:
Impulse power, Mr Sulu.
Ahead Warp point-five.

At no point did anyone say what the Enterprise's top "impulse" speed was. Actually, at no point after Regula 1 did they refer to aux power or impulse power since it wasn't restored. And when the Enterprise was limping away from the about to explode Reliant it was probably being driven on batteries.

Spock's says

Engine room reports auxiliary power
restored. We can proceed at impulse
power.

This is while Scott and Kirk speak about the death of his nephew.

If they had impulse power they would've rocketed out of there like "The Squire of Gothos". We have dialogue pointing out (from Spock) that the amount of power that Scotty had restored was still less than Reliant's relatively undamaged impulse systems. So whatever power they had feeding to the impulse engines was less than Reliant's. After Scotty took the mains offline the Enterprise was barely moving to get out of the area without aux power driving them.

We can't go by TOS.
And the movie directly implies the Enterprise has impulse speeds because Reliant chased them previously at full impulse. The impulse engines are lit when Enterprise moves. It may not make sense that Enterprise was moving so slow but that is the context of impulse speeds in this movie.

I recommend not using TNG as the basis for figuring out the mechanics of TOS/TOS Movies. There are some very different approaches taken on the same "tech" by the different production groups.

I can't give TOS or TNG authority over TMP.
Only this movie and it's context.
Not the other 10 films.

Remember that Spock says they were outgunned and could be outrun as well. Reliant's impulse power was still more than the PARTIAL main power the Enterprise had.

SPOCK: She can out-run us and out-gun us.

That makes no sense.
Enterprise had Impulse Power before they beamed down to regula. They got the Mains back 2 hours after Kirk told them to leave.

What are you talking about. Impulse Power isn't superior to warp power. Not even remotely and Reliant was NEVER said to have lost her "Mains".

Reliant Intact Impulse power output > Enterprise repaired PARTIAL Main power output

That's pure speculation and the evidence contradicts it completely. Enterprise had Impulse power and her mains. Both ships had there mains that's why the battle was closer to being equal in the Nebula but Reliant still outgunned Enterprise.

That's Chekov pulling the photon charge slider controls.

I saw Sulu.

In both instances where Enterprise hits the Reliant with the low powered photons the explosions (or destruction) was from what it hit

(the torpedo pod,

That's pure conjecture:
1. We don't know that there was anything "volatile" in the Torpedo pod.
2. The sliders were pulled all the way down.
3. The effect of the initial torp strike was an immediate hull breach. (I've covered this) that was far Greater than Reliants "weak" torp. This is a contradiction.
4. The one Secondary explosion wasn't sufficient to label it multiple torpedoes going off on the inside. If that's what happened the compression of all that explosive force would result in absolutely NO POD and bars themselves would have been flung away.

the volatile warp nacelle).

1. The phaser strike had already detonated the plasma
2. We see the chain reaction of secondary explosions progress to the front of the nacelle
3.The torpedo causes no secondary explosion
4. The strike hit's the the pylon and obliterates its demonstrating more power than the first torpedo

Actually, I am referencing things from TOS and the previous TOS movie because they actually match up. I am NOT referencing TNG or later productions because they decided to do something totally different but still keep the same tech names. TWOK does very well in maintaining continuity with TOS in regards to tech.

I can't use either to decide what's going on in TWOK.
It's not the same FX.
Nor the same FX crew
Nor the same producer.
We have no indications other than circumstantial correlations that things are the same.

The warp speeds are consistent within TOS. Effective FTL speed is significantly reduced when within a few AUs of the sun/star, but very fast between systems (faster than TNG+) and about the same with TNG between galaxies.

This meaning and reasoning has never appeared in the show to my knowledge.

In TNG, the effective FTL speeds were made to be the same regardless of where you were at. However, they were also made to be much slower as well.

.

I don't know about all this I would need to see the data.

 

[blssdwlf]

Watch TMP. You can clearly see that the impulse engines can be powered by the mains as they depart Earth.

What does "The Mains" mean to you?
The word is never used in The Motion Picture.

It depends on context:

DECKER: Wormhole distortion has over-loaded main power systems!
DECKER: Sir, the Enterprise redesign increases phaser power by channelling it through the main engines.
KIRK: Engineering! Belay that order, Scotty! Disengage all main drive systems!

My context is that because the Main Engines were NOT ready for warp in system, it was the Main Power systems that drove the impulse engines from Earth to Jupiter. Scotty was referring to the main power system when he called up and said intermix was set, impulse good to go (paraphrasing).

In TMP, the mains powered the impulse engines to Warp 0.5. Going to Warp 1 was with the warp engines. After the wormhole, the Enterprise dropped to Warp 0.8.

Spock's says

Engine room reports auxiliary power
restored. We can proceed at impulse
power.

This is while Scott and Kirk speak about the death of his nephew.

And Spock later says when they're on Regula 1:

SPOCK (on intercom): The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible in two days, ...by the book, Admiral

When Kirk beams back, Spock's revised report does not say they were able to restore auxiliary power. Only partial main power.

We can't go by TOS.
And the movie directly implies the Enterprise has impulse speeds because Reliant chased them previously at full impulse. The impulse engines are lit when Enterprise moves. It may not make sense that Enterprise was moving so slow but that is the context of impulse speeds in this movie.

Of course the Enterprise's impulse engines are lit. When they're running from Regula 1 to the nebula, whatever is left of the main power system is driving the impulse engines.

And Reliant doesn't push their impulse engines to full power until Enterprise is almost at the nebula.

I can't give TOS or TNG authority over TMP.
Only this movie and it's context.
Not the other 10 films.

That makes no sense.
Enterprise had Impulse Power before they beamed down to regula. They got the Mains back 2 hours after Kirk told them to leave.

Yes on mains, but they never got their auxiliary power back and the impulse engines were driven by their partial main power.

What are you talking about. Impulse Power isn't superior to warp power. Not even remotely and Reliant was NEVER said to have lost her "Mains".

Reliant's intact impulse power system puts out X amount of power. Enterprise's repaired main power system only puts out a percentage (aka PARTIAL) amount of it's original capability. Enterprise's partial main power system puts out less than Reliant's impulse power system. Reliant lost her main power system aka Warp drive and they were never said to have repaired it. That's how the context game works in this movie.

I saw Sulu.

You saw Sulu far away from the camera. And Chekov before that sit down at the weapons station. At no point in the scene does the camera go closeup on Sulu and then show the insert of the hand adjusting photon power. Instead, it's a bridge shot with Kirk giving orders, "stand by photon torpedoes." Then insert shot of Chekov's hand is shown adjusting the torpedo settings.

3. The effect of the initial torp strike was an immediate hull breach. (I've covered this) that was far Greater than Reliants "weak" torp.

The immediate effect of Reliant's "weak" torp was explosive havoc wreaked on the bridge of the Enterprise and the loss of auxiliary power. Enterprise's torpedo hit to the torpedo pod clearly set something off, like photon torpedoes in their tubes

4. The one Secondary explosion wasn't sufficient to label it multiple torpedoes going off on the inside. If that's what happened the compression of all that explosive force would result in absolutely NO POD and bars themselves would have been flung away.

And who is conjecturing here? The hit set something off inside and the pod exploded from the inside out. However, lucky for the Reliant, it wasn't enough to get blown completely into space.

2. We see the chain reaction of secondary explosions progress to the front of the nacelle
3.The torpedo causes no secondary explosion
4. The strike hit's the the pylon and obliterates its demonstrating more power than the first torpedo

Not exactly. The secondary explosions are in the middle of the nacelle.
The torpedo hit detonates the BACK HALF of the nacelle, with the resulting explosion severing what is left of it from the pylon.

I can't use either to decide what's going on in TWOK.
It's not the same FX.
Nor the same FX crew
Nor the same producer.
We have no indications other than circumstantial correlations that things are the same.
...
I don't know about all this I would need to see the data.

On one hand, you do not want to use the prior movie and TOS series and TNG and on the other hand you want to still use said data.

BTW, the insert of the photon power being adjusted down is gold! This is a fun discussion!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We have no proof at all that warp power to phasers diminishes their effectiveness.

We have Paradise Syndrome and Elaan of Troyus as datapoints. We also have "The Cage" which suggests that phaser output is directly proportional to power input, and a hundred years earlier this is already true of the phase cannons on NX-01. It is ALSO true of forcefields and deflector systems as per "The Changeling" and "Elaan of Troyus" again.

In fact the last two sliders above that tells us the true power of the phasers was at max.

In the first place we cannot see the position of the sliders on that board, so that remains to be determined.

In the second place, I wouldn't expect Reliant to be firing on the Enterprise with its phasers on the stun setting... would you?

Negative, no Time Frame is given.

SPOCK: "Engine room reports auxiliary power restored. We can proceed at impulse power."
^ Takes place immediately after Peter Preston dies.

JOACHIM: "Impulse power restored." Takes place at 12 to 24 hours after Petre Preston dies.

There's your timeframe.

I won't contradict that.
Yet, the implication is that they can indeed leave. No repairs are apparently standing in the way.

Yes. They can leave at impulse power and repair the warp drive later. Khan has no reason to be afraid of the Enterprise running away and warning Starfleet; Enterprise is the only ship in the quadrant. He has even less reason to worry about Enterprise chasing him down; until now, Khan has done all the chasing, and he's been lead to believe that Enterprise is in no condition to fight anyway.

It really IS just a choice between "Finish him!" and "Onwards to conquest!

That is an incomplete and false analysis.
Reliant brought one one phaser to bare (and you know that) while previously Reliant had both beams pinpointed on Enterprise.

Incorrect: the first phaser attack was a direct hit from the portside phaser bank firing downwards and to port; the starboard could not have fired without shooting through Reliant's saucer section. The second attack was fired straight forward with BOTH phaser banks firing but only one of them hitting.

So the analysis stands. Reliant's second phaser attack was NOT more powerful than its first, and was arguably LESS powerful since it caused less systemic damage overall.

But everytime Reliant fired on Enterprise they loss main power.

Incorrect. In the second attack Scotty voluntarily took main power offline because of a radiation leak, probably due to a failure in his system bypass. Enterprise' phaser attack on Reliant hit the bridge and ONLY the bridge, which makes for a fitting comparison.

Also False.
Enterprise clearly suffers from a lack of main power in the first battle and the phasers INFACT....still operate.

But not at all power, which we've already established. Battery power can give you a little bit of power for a little bit of time... but not as much as impulse, and not NEARLY as much as the warp drive.

You were straightforward when you thought you were right

And I'm straightforward now. The best-fit logical conclusion is that their phasers were at power parity throughout the film; they deal out similar levels of damage in similar timeframes with similar contact. The only wiggle room in the analysis is HOW MUCH damage was dealt, and that is impossible to conclude either way with only the information available although it leans slightly on the favor of Enterprise.

OTOH, "Reliant's phasers were more powerful" is not supported by ANYTHING in the film, even if (as you have) we assume that premise for no reason whatsoever. You would have to ignore much and equivocate more in order to make that assumption workable, and there's no compelling reason to do so.

If Sulu pulls down all the photon charge slide controls and Enterprise's photons blow away the Roll bar tubes and blow away the warp engine and we've seen Reliant's torpedo against Enterprise causes no hull breech at all...it means making a case by means of the control panels for warp power or not just became hugely irrelevant.

Photon torpedoes aren't powered by the warp drives.

It's not the same ship. It's not even the same series.

Actually, it IS the same ship, just refit with new technologies.

In any case the basic principal still applies, possibly more so since the ship has been redesigned to be even more dependent on warp power than before.

If you had read what me and Blssdwlf were talking about...

I did, and I agree wholeheartedly with blssdlf's conclusion on this matter (where it comes to FX comparisons).

Blssdwlf talked about Paradise Syndrome. In that episode Enterprise races at warp nine to meet an asteroid only 2 month's away at it's speed and that burns out the engines for the phasers? That makes no sense at all. They should have been at warp for mere seconds...(and that threatens to burn out the star drive?) Now IF you can explain why the engines are so weak...

The engines are mechanical devices like any other. They are only as strong as their weakest components, and a failure in one of those components can cause compound failures that lead to damage to the entire system.

The engines are designed to operate safely within a pre-defined regime of stress and output. When you exceed that output, the stress on the engine increases. That increased stress erodes the strength of its many components, slowly compromising their integrity. For comparison, imagine what would happen if you tried to drive a car at 70mph for 8 hours while still in 1st gear. In less time than that, you're going to severely fuck up your engine and/or transmission. Now imagine if, after those 8 hours your engine is still somehow intact, then suddenly you throw it into third gear and try to accelerate to 120 (that's pretty much how my little sister blew a headgasket last year).

Suffice to say, the power requirements from Full Phasers are extremely high, probably similar to that of the warp engines themselves.

"Main energizer" is equivalent here to "warp drive," and we know that the impulse engines are part of the auxiliary power system. We do not know how badly Reliant's engines were damaged... but then, we don't know that of Enterprise either. All we know is:

Reliant lost warp drive, Enterprise lost main power
Reliant lost impulse, Enterprise lost auxiliary power
Reliant lost photon control. Enterprise didn't.

Why do we need visual display?[/quote]
Because we didn't get a complete VERBAL report from the Enterprise, not the way we got from Reliant. Otherwise there's nothing to compare.

How did this inconsistency become a superior standard over just looking at the ships move and listening to damaged and recovered systems?

Because only a handful of damaged/recovering systems are mentioned, and not all of the damages ARE mentioned.

The reason we can't use the models/visuals alone is because 1) the models used for TWOK lacked the ability to directly control their lighting (deflector dish is always blue, engines always glow, running lights don't blink, etc) and 2) we do not know whether thruster action alone is insufficient to produce the types of movements we saw, let alone whether a loss of impulse propulsion would have resulted in (or even from) a loss of impulse POWER.

Reliant Damaged Warpdrive
Reliant Damaged partial impulse power (the engines are lit while Reliant retreats)
Reliant Lost photon control.

AND warp drive, AND impulse power. Don't forget those.

Enterprise Lost shields
Enterprise Lost ALL impulse Power and Auxilary power
Enterprise Lost Main Power

And this we have equivalency:

Reliant lost warp drive, Enterprise lost main energizer
Reliant lost impulse power, Enterprise lost auxiliary power
Reliant lost photon control. Enterprise didn't.

And this with Reliant hitting Enterprise with phasers and a photon torpedo, and Enterprise hitting with phasers only. Do you honestly believe that Reliant would still have been in better shape than Enterprise if Kirk had hit them with a torpedo as well?

Reliant never lost main power

Reliant lost warp drive, which--when it comes to shields and weapons--is the same thing.

Reliant never lost Aux Power

Reliant lost impulse power, which--when it comes to shields and weapons--is again the same thing.

One ship could move.
One couldn't.
One ship had power
The other ship didn't.

Both of them could move. Even Reliant was able to maneuver with its impulse engines knocked out (which they were, until at 12 to 24 hours later). Enterprise could have maneuvered too using thrusters, but it couldn't get all the way to Regula-1 that way, and without phaser power there was no reason to pursue Reliant.

Loss of photon control means torpedoes are out; loss of warp drives means phasers are out (thus Joachim's answer to Khan's "Fire! Fire!" is a "We can't fire, Sir!").

Why is this so complicated?

Because you're starting with a premise that has no support and trying to make the evidence fit that premise. The truth is, there's no evidence that Reliant's phasers were EVER more powerful than any other weapon in the universe, and the balance of evidence points to power parity at all times.

 

[Gagarin]

...not really tracking with the argument that Enterprise still didn't have auxiliary power by the end of the movie. All auxiliary power is is a cluster of fusion reactors. You don't need the fusion reactors to run the impulse engines if you have main power (the Intermix shaft powers the warp drive and the impulse engines normally).

TEMPORARILY FAILED means their failure was of little consequence... it was awhile between that report and the battle in the nebula. If they got partial main power in 2 hours, they were definitely able to get the fusion reactors back online.

 

[blssdwlf]

...not really tracking with the argument that Enterprise still didn't have auxiliary power by the end of the movie. All auxiliary power is is a cluster of fusion reactors. You don't need the fusion reactors to run the impulse engines if you have main power (the Intermix shaft powers the warp drive and the impulse engines normally).

TEMPORARILY FAILED means their failure was of little consequence... it was awhile between that report and the battle in the nebula. If they got partial main power in 2 hours, they were definitely able to get the fusion reactors back online.

@Gagarin, as far as the movie suggests, they never restored auxiliary power. When Kirk was on Regula 1, Spock's damage report indicated Main Power and Auxiliary power were down. Even though it was a "temporary failure", Spock wasn't confident that it was a sure thing to be repaired ("Restoration may be possible...").

When Kirk returns to the Enterprise, Spock only lists Main Power as being partially restored but even when pressed by Kirk, Spock never says, "Auxiliary Power, too."

From the dialogue:

SPOCK (on intercom): The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible in two days, ...by the book, Admiral

...

KIRK: What is working around here?
SPOCK: Not much, Admiral. We have partial main power.
KIRK: That's it?
SPOCK: Best we could do in two hours.

 

[Saquist]

...not really tracking with the argument that Enterprise still didn't have auxiliary power by the end of the movie. All auxiliary power is is a cluster of fusion reactors. You don't need the fusion reactors to run the impulse engines if you have main power (the Intermix shaft powers the warp drive and the impulse engines normally).

TEMPORARILY FAILED means their failure was of little consequence... it was awhile between that report and the battle in the nebula. If they got partial main power in 2 hours, they were definitely able to get the fusion reactors back online.

I have to concur. Aux power was a temporary failed.
There's other information to go along with this but I'll address it with Blssdwlf. But the thing is the role of the Intermix chamber has yet to defined in Trek. We know the impulse engines can power up to warp speeds (meaning above traditional impulse speeds) but we don't know if main power can power the impulse engines. That's never been said.

It depends on context:
----
My context is that because the Main Engines were NOT ready for warp in system, it was the Main Power systems that drove the impulse engines from Earth to Jupiter. Scotty was referring to the main power system when he called up and said intermix was set, impulse good to go (paraphrasing).

Right now It's not the context that's important.
Power means source of energy to do work.
Engines use power for locomotion.
They say Impulse Power available. (Source of energy)
They say speed is Warp .5
The role of the Intermix is dubious. (shrug)

SPOCK (on intercom): Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible in two days, ...by the book, Admiral

When Kirk beams back, Spock's revised report does not say they were able to restore auxiliary power. Only partial main power.

Don't be so strict. Follow the logic
He did said Temporarily failed. So far you've surmised that Enterprise was on battery power after the mains went down in the nebula and that they fired multiple burst of phasers and torpedoes when we already KNOW the Enterprise can only muster a couple of shots on battery power. We also know the Enterprise can't move with out impulse power.

Of course the Enterprise's impulse engines are lit. When they're running from Regula 1 to the nebula, whatever is left of the main power system is driving the impulse engines.

We have no evidence that the mains were powering the impulse engines. You're using your speculation of TMP to justify this logic thus I can't treat speculation as "obvious".

Reliant lost her main power system aka Warp drive and they were never said to have repaired it. That's how the context game works in this movie.

Firstly they didn't say Lost they said damaged in the context of inability to fire.
Secondly damage to warp drive (a system of power generation and engines) doesn't directly infer a lost of main power.

You saw Sulu far away from the camera. And Chekov before that sit down at the weapons station. At no point in the scene does the camera go closeup on Sulu and then show the insert of the hand adjusting photon power. Instead, it's a bridge shot with Kirk giving orders, "stand by photon torpedoes." Then insert shot of Chekov's hand is shown adjusting the torpedo settings.

I can't confirm. My Drivers are down.

Enterprise's torpedo hit to the torpedo pod clearly set something off, like photon torpedoes in their tubes

Speculatively, Yes, something caused "one" secondary explosion in the pod. It was smaller than the initial torp blast and of unconfirmed origin.

And who is conjecturing here?

This is not conjecture. It's physics.
An explosion set off in a confined space will be amplified by compression.

Not exactly. The secondary explosions are in the middle of the nacelle.

I did slow motion. It started from the rear and worked it's way up. Expansion was rapid.

The torpedo hit detonates the BACK HALF of the nacelle, with the resulting explosion severing what is left of it from the pylon.

I can' concur. (Yet)
The pylon was not struck previously. And when the Nacelle flies away there is no sign of it.

On one hand, you do not want to use the prior movie and TOS series and TNG and on the other hand you want to still use said data.

Prior movie is fine. (TMP)
It's the same ship. TNG and TOS should be off limits.

BTW, the insert of the photon power being adjusted down is gold! This is a fun discussion!

I KNOW I LOVE IT.

We have Paradise Syndrome and Elaan of Troyus as datapoints. We also have "The Cage" which suggests that phaser output is directly proportional to power input, and a hundred years earlier this is already true of the phase cannons on NX-01. It is ALSO true of forcefields and deflector systems as per "The Changeling" and "Elaan of Troyus" again.

I'm sorry. I simply can't accept all of canon as a representation and reasoning of power or fire power for TWOK. Consistency isn't Trek's strong point.

In the first place we cannot see the position of the sliders on that board, so that remains to be determined.

I have the DVD and a 52" Television. I can't tell that the lit line isn't interupted. I see a reflection in the form of very light line at the top and nothing at the bottom.

In the second place, I wouldn't expect Reliant to be firing on the Enterprise with its phasers on the stun setting... would you?

That's part of Blssdwlf argument that they were at low power.

There's your timeframe.

We weren't talking about the initial failure but the temporary failure after the first restoration.

Yes. They can leave at impulse power and repair the warp drive later.

Granted.
Yet this doesn't mean the Mains were down.

and he's been lead to believe that Enterprise is in no condition to fight anyway.

Khan knows by this point that Spock's estimates were subterfuge. But I think at this point after Spock says Reliant does indeed out gun them that Reliant's Main Power is functioning and indeed it was never said to have been lost.

Incorrect: the first phaser attack was a direct hit from the portside phaser bank firing downwards and to port; the starboard could not have fired without shooting through Reliant's saucer section. The second attack was fired straight forward with BOTH phaser banks firing but only one of them hitting.

(reviewed)
I stand corrected.

So the analysis stands. Reliant's second phaser attack was NOT more powerful than its first, and was arguably LESS powerful since it caused less systemic damage overall.

Arguably but not through direct inference.

Incorrect. In the second attack Scotty voluntarily took main power offline because of a radiation leak, probably due to a failure in his system bypass.

The statement was sufficient.
At no time in the quoted did I say it was by direct cause of Reliant. (which is undetermined)

But not at all power, which we've already established.

You said it depended on warp power to operate.
I didn't say all power.
The statement stands.

And I'm straightforward now. The best-fit logical conclusion is that their phasers were at power parity throughout the film; they deal out similar levels of damage in similar timeframes with similar contact. The only wiggle room in the analysis is HOW MUCH damage was dealt, and that is impossible to conclude either way with only the information available although it leans slightly on the favor of Enterprise.

I haven't come to a conclusion yet.
I'm not sure if I'm seeing all the facts in the proper light. Some of the Revelations in this discussion have revealed of my perceptions and some interesting quirks in the dialogue and plot devices.

It's funny how they worked this out.
Khan (and the audience) is lead to believe Enterprise is crippled. When Reliant withdraws, that's true, but Spock says they have impulse power. Spock deceives Khan to maintain that illusion but Joachim seems to have already have come to that conclusion long before they spy on Enterprise's transmission. ( How?)

Further. When asked about the mains Scott says he doesn't think they'll be getting them back and yet Spock shows up later with an estimate of 6 hours, then they get partial main power back in 2 hours. Is this the exageration factor of 4 Kirk talks about in TSFS?

OTOH, "Reliant's phasers were more powerful" is not supported by ANYTHING in the film, even if (as you have) we assume that premise for no reason whatsoever. You would have to ignore much and equivocate more in order to make that assumption workable, and there's no compelling reason to do so.

NOTE:
I don't know what is OTOH means.
----------
Not true. Spock says Reliant outguns them
Visual evidence confirms splash radius from Reliants phasers is usually larger than Enterprise.
----------
You may not accept the evidence but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Evidence in it's broadest context is anything which may be used to substantiate a claim.

Photon torpedoes aren't powered by the warp drives.

We don't know that.

Actually, it IS the same ship, just refit with new technologies.

The actuality is, the ship was completely redesign. Nothing but bare basics are the same.

I did, and I agree wholeheartedly with blssdlf's conclusion on this matter (where it comes to FX comparisons).

Understood but some of his conclusions are not relying on direct inference but rather his speculation on how these systems work.

The engines are mechanical devices like any other. They are only as strong as their weakest components, and a failure in one of those components can cause compound failures that lead to damage to the entire system.

Heres the problem.
The power to destroy an asteroid is a nuclear level event.
The asteroid was described as the size of Earth's moon. (ridiculous) We're talking hundreds of GIGA TONS of TNT to split that fissure. That is not what we saw in the Cage when all power is directed to the guns but more importantly if Enterprise had GIGA TON level energy production it could physically knock the Asteroid off course...wo either the asteroid's size was ludicrously large or we are the victim of editing and there were many more sequences of phaser fire than what we saw. It is my belief that editing is our enemy here.

Because we didn't get a complete VERBAL report from the Enterprise, not the way we got from Reliant. [/QUOTE]

Only a false report would necessitate a visual damage assessment.

Because only a handful of damaged/recovering systems are mentioned, and not all of the damages ARE mentioned.

The reason we can't use the models/visuals alone is because 1) the models used for TWOK lacked the ability to directly control their lighting (deflector dish is always blue, engines always glow, running lights don't blink, etc) and 2) we do not know whether thruster action alone is insufficient to produce the types of movements we saw, let alone whether a loss of impulse propulsion would have resulted in (or even from) a loss of impulse POWER.

The key word not addressed is inconsistency.
The model did not reflect the visual report on sceen.


And this we have equivalency:

Reliant lost warp drive, Enterprise lost main energizer

Not equivalent.
One is a power system the other is a propulsion system

Reliant lost impulse power, Enterprise lost auxiliary power

Reliant didn't lose impulse (It was damaged)

Reliant lost photon control. Enterprise didn't.

True

Reliant lost warp drive, which--when it comes to shields and weapons--is the same thing.

I can not concur.

Both of them could move. Even Reliant was able to maneuver with its impulse engines knocked out (which they were, until at 12 to 24 hours later).

They never said they lost impulse power. They merely stated it was restored.

Loss of photon control means torpedoes are out; loss of warp drives means phasers are out (thus Joachim's answer to Khan's "Fire! Fire!" is a "We can't fire, Sir!").

It means they couldn't fire, not that they didn't have power.

 

[blssdwlf]

It depends on context:
----
My context is that because the Main Engines were NOT ready for warp in system, it was the Main Power systems that drove the impulse engines from Earth to Jupiter. Scotty was referring to the main power system when he called up and said intermix was set, impulse good to go (paraphrasing).

Right now It's not the context that's important.
Power means source of energy to do work.
Engines use power for locomotion.
They say Impulse Power available. (Source of energy)
They say speed is Warp .5
The role of the Intermix is dubious. (shrug)

Context is important. Watch the movie. Scotty is looking right at the main power system. Only the main power system requires an Intermix setting. Auxiliary power does not.

SCOTT: Intermix set. Bridge, impulse power at your discretion.

Don't be so strict.

Says the person who wants to ignore or discount TOS

Follow the logic
He did said Temporarily failed.

Yeah, and he also said, "Restoration may be possible". Logically, Spock wasn't positive it would be restored. We know from the dialogue that only partial main power was restored.

So far you've surmised that Enterprise was on battery power after the mains went down in the nebula and that they fired multiple burst of phasers and torpedoes when we already KNOW the Enterprise can only muster a couple of shots on battery power.

In the first battle, with Enterprise on battery power, she gets off 4 seconds of phaser fire. In the Mutara Nebula, Enterprise on battery power fires her phasers for <1 second and 2 photons. How is this helping your argument again?

We also know the Enterprise can't move with out impulse power.

We know the Enterprise can't move very fast on battery power, that's a given. But the Enterprise is quite capable of moving on battery power (albeit slowly) and that's consistent with the movie. In the first battle when the Enterprise is knocked down to battery power, we still see the Enterprise tracking to starboard to keep Reliant in front of her. And in TOS, the Enterprise made and held orbit with battery power-only in "Mudd's Women".

I'll tell you though, this discussion has given me a greater appreciation for the production crew's thinking that went into the space battle.

Can we tell if Reliant's rollbar phasers are more powerful than Enterprise's ball phasers? Nope. Physical damage tracks look too similar. Could Reliant be firing at full power in the initial attack? Nope, damage track looks just like later on when stuck at impulse power and when Enterprise fires at battery power.

I'll be happy to go back and forth with you on this Saquist, even though I suspect we'll only agree to disagree in the end