Miranda Class Phasers

[Saquist]

According to this

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=43469&highlight=cole

the green metered scaling areas above are actually for the power levels while the ones below are for power transfer.

And since the phaser power is transferred directly from the warp engines (ala TMP) then phaser power is limited to how much warp power is being transferred.

So again, console shows low phaser power setting and no Reliant hit penetrates or does any more damage than the Enterprise's when at reduced strength.

Therefore, there is no way to determine that the Reliant's rollbar phasers are any more powerful than the Enterprise's since they're not fired at full power

The bars up above say 100%
The transfer from the warp engines was minimal.
We've never been told that the phasers were limited to warp power. If that were true Enterprise couldn't have returned fire at all since they only had auxiliary or Impulse power.

 

[blssdwlf]

The bars up above say 100%
The transfer from the warp engines was minimal.
We've never been told that the phasers were limited to warp power. If that were true Enterprise couldn't have returned power at all since they only had auxilary or Impulse power.

The vertical bars? Those are slider controls that are lit all the time.

From TMP:
DECKER: Sir, the Enterprise redesign increases phaser power by channeling it through the main engines.

Phaser power is tied to the transfer of power from the warp engines. If little or no warp power is involved, I cannot see how the Reliant is firing at full power.

Find any examples where the Reliant's phasers do significantly more damage or penetration than the Enterprise's phasers?

 

[Saquist]

The vertical bars? Those are slider controls that are lit all the time.

Ah...
But the second from the left is the only down considerably the others aren't visible. (The sliders)

From TMP:
DECKER: Sir, the Enterprise redesign increases phaser power by channeling it through the main engines.

Phaser power is tied to the transfer of power from the warp engines. If little or no warp power is involved, I cannot see how the Reliant is firing at full power.

Yeah "increase" power from normal. I can by that but do you really think the Enterprise or Reliant can't fire at all without the warp power transfer?

Find any examples where the Reliant's phasers do significantly more damage or penetration than the Enterprise's phasers?

I don't know about that...but the next time we see those same canons fire on Enterprise there is no where near as much splash heat from the impact on the Torpedo tubes as there was from main engineering. But that may be because one side misses completely.

 

[blssdwlf]

Yeah "increase" power from normal. I can by that but do you really think the Enterprise or Reliant can't fire at all without the warp power transfer?

I never said that. Only that neither ship fired at full phaser power or even close to that since warp power availability was either deliberately limited or damaged. In the case of actual damage per phaser hit (ignoring the splash size), it's very similar in damage and penetration at the beginning of the fight all the way to the end indicating the phaser power setting difference to be minimal.

So either both ships were firing at full power which we know wasn't possible for the Enterprise or both ships were firing at low power with the Reliant deliberately going for surgical strikes to the energizers and later too damaged to bring her phasers to full power.

And without both ships going at it at full power, it's impossible to say that the rollbar phasers are more powerful than the phasers on the Enterprise, IMHO

 

[Crazy Eddie]

According to this

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=43469&highlight=cole

the green metered scaling areas above are actually for the power levels while the ones below are for power transfer.

And since the phaser power is transferred directly from the warp engines (ala TMP) then phaser power is limited to how much warp power is being transferred.

So again, console shows low phaser power setting and no Reliant hit penetrates or does any more damage than the Enterprise's when at reduced strength.

Therefore, there is no way to determine that the Reliant's rollbar phasers are any more powerful than the Enterprise's since they're not fired at full power

The bars up above say 100%
The transfer from the warp engines was minimal.

I always interpreted this to mean that the new phaser setting draws power DIRECTLY from the warp engines instead of storing it in a rechargeable phaser bank. This has the advantage of producing power on demand and allowing the ship to hang in a fight for a long period of time, without having to worry about its phaser banks being depleted. It has the DISADVANTAGE that phaser power is severely reduced--or lost altogether--when warp power fails.

 

[Saquist]

Like I said before if that was true then ENTERPRISE should have had no phaser power after the mains went down but scotty says the had enough auxillary power for a few shots.

Now that says that the phasers fired (likely at full intensity) for that duration. Warp Transfer means like you say a less limited supply of power not necessarily more powerful burst.

 

[blssdwlf]

Watch the movie again. Scotty ends up firing the phasers with battery power for a "few shots".

SCOTT (on intercom): Just the batteries, sir. I can have auxiliary power in a few minutes.
KIRK: We don't have a few minutes. ...Can you give me phaser power?
SCOTT (on intercom): A few shots, sir.

Remember that phaser power output is dependent on the amount of power put in. A warp-powered phaser will do more damage than an auxiliary-powered phaser. An auxiliary-powered phaser will do more damage than a battery-powered phaser. Then you need to adjust the phaser output by the firing ship's intent. If they are shooting to kill, then it's different than shooting to disable because as we know, phasers are adjustable.

And secondly, there is nothing in TWOK to show that the initial phaser strikes by the Reliant are significantly more powerful than the severely damaged Enterprise which would either suggest that Reliant's phasers at full power are as weak as Enterprise's crippled phasers or that the Reliant was firing at a lower power to only wound the Enterprise and not destroy it in the opening moments.

 

[Saquist]

I don't know that true.
Reliant's phasers pierced the hull every single time. Enterprise didn't.

 

[Timo]

True enough. Scotty's "few shots" create a scar that at first may look just as deep as any produced by Khan, but in closer look is only surface deep:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0525.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0527.jpg

To be sure, the first shot may actually have penetrated; the surface charring in the second screencap is from a second shot that could easily be argued to have been weaker than the first one.

And when Kirk gets his next chance to fire at Khan, in the nebula battle, he again targets this same area, which subsequently is obscured in all shots so we can't see if there was penetrating damage there. (Of course there "really" wasn't, because a partial model rigged for such damage was not constructed, unlike in the case of the Enterprise neck area - but the point is, we can't tell.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

Sounds like reasonable doubt to me.

 

[Search4]

I tend to agree that phaser penetration was clearly not across the whole deck, which ties to "not full power" as they were trying to wound the ship to obtain Genesis. Maybe that is 1/4 power, maybe not.

But the post raises another question (no doubt raised elsewhere) - how did the damage on the starboard side occur? Its not in II, its present in ST III. I think there's a comic book that covers some of that (during the voyage back from II) but nothing canon. Although it IS canon the damage "appeared".

 

[Saquist]

It's an interesting question.
I've always regarded as device errors in continuity and never gave it a second thought.
The Genesis Explosion maybe?
We never see that side of the ship until the next movie.

 

[Timo]

We see the side clearly in the shot where the ship departs towards the ending credits, which is damning enough...

There're two basic ways the additional damage could have been inflicted:

1) The ship had an exciting adventure between ST2 and ST3 and sustained (combat?) damage.

2) The ship was haphazardly repaired by the untrained crew, and the repairs failed catastrophically before the ship reached Earth.

The first theory suffers from lack of mention in ST3, but clearly something happened between the movies because Saavik and David Marcus somehow got off the ship and reached Earth long before the other heroes. OTOH, a slow arrival of our main heroes would be an obvious consequence if there were a failure in the repairs...

It might be noted that the Starfleet personnel and possible civilians who witness the arrival of the Enterprise seem shocked by the appearance of her port side. We could speculate that they already knew something of the events, but were surprised by the further damage.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

I don't know that true.
Reliant's phasers pierced the hull every single time. Enterprise didn't.

Really? Each spot the battery-powered Enterprise phaser hits either leaves a scar (or blows something up) and has confirmed internal damage via dialogue.

As to the starboard side not showing external damage even though there is damage to that side as seen on the damage monitors, I believe they are caused by low powered photon torpedoes. If you watch STIII, the Enterprise fires two photon torpedoes, most likely low powered given the distance, and both leave no external scarring. Kruge's BOP fires also what appears to be a low-powered torpedo and it too leaves no external scarring. Both ships at this point have no shields up.

The Reliant fires at least one torpedo (the one we see that takes out auxiliary power) and we do not see where it hits as it doesn't leave any scar on the top side of the ship...

In ST6, Chang's torpedoes are likely fired at a higher setting since they are scarring, even through shields.

As to the extra damage in ST3, yeah it could either be from another battle that occurred... afterall, the crewman who asked about a hero's welcome for basically a skeleton crew when the rest of the crew in the ST2 battle had already been re-assigned? But it could also have been some of the repairs required cutting open stuff to get at it and the green crew even with Scotty's supervision weren't too careful

 

[Gagarin]

We also don't know if all starship hulls are equal, and if all parts on the same starship are equal.

Perhaps the blue/green area outlining the energizers are especially thick/strong - part of an armor belt protecting that part of the ship?

Perhaps the Reliant isn't built to the same standard as Enterprise. 25% more or 25% more thickness and 10% more or 10% less crossmembers or some such.

It could be another plausible variable.

 

[Saquist]

We also don't know if all starship hulls are equal, and if all parts on the same starship are equal.

Perhaps the blue/green area outlining the energizers are especially thick/strong - part of an armor belt protecting that part of the ship?

Perhaps the Reliant isn't built to the same standard as Enterprise. 25% more or 25% more thickness and 10% more or 10% less crossmembers or some such.

It could be another plausible variable.

All true.

Really? Each spot the battery-powered Enterprise phaser hits either leaves a scar (or blows something up) and has confirmed internal damage via dialogue.

They aimed for weak spot (deflection crystal) THEY ACTUALLY MISSED the first shot. That sort of says the Enterprise's phasers were weaker. Taking out the warp drive likely put Reliant on Auxilary or impulse power JUST LIKE ENTERPRISE. With a few more shots Enterprise could have disable impulse power too.

 

[blssdwlf]

We also don't know if all starship hulls are equal, and if all parts on the same starship are equal.

Perhaps the blue/green area outlining the energizers are especially thick/strong - part of an armor belt protecting that part of the ship?

Perhaps the Reliant isn't built to the same standard as Enterprise. 25% more or 25% more thickness and 10% more or 10% less crossmembers or some such.

It could be another plausible variable.

All true.

Very possible. Let's keep in mind that full power phaser shots at long to medium distance from the Enterprise in "The Ultimate Computer" killed everyone aboard the Excalibur. And only four phaser hits was enough to demolish an unshielded Klingon Battlecruiser in "Day of the Dove". The Reliant and Enterprise in "The Wrath of Khan" are firing dozens of phaser shots at point-blank ranges which further suggest lower power settings either deliberately (Khan crippling Kirk's ship) or forced to (Khan losing warp power, Kirk's ship crippled.)

Really? Each spot the battery-powered Enterprise phaser hits either leaves a scar (or blows something up) and has confirmed internal damage via dialogue.

They aimed for weak spot (deflection crystal) THEY ACTUALLY MISSED the first shot. That sort of says the Enterprise's phasers were weaker. Taking out the warp drive likely put Reliant on Auxilary or impulse power JUST LIKE ENTERPRISE. With a few more shots Enterprise could have disable impulse power too.

No. First, the Enterprise hit exactly where they were shooting for. Second, don't confuse fire control for weapon strength or weakness (even though in this case accuracy doesn't even apply since they hit exactly what they were shooting for.)

When the the Enterprise fired, the first hits went to a spot on the side of the crystal dome, past the bridge. The next shots went to the crystal dome. Those shots removed the ability for the Reliant to shoot any of her weapons.

KHAN: Fire! Fire!
JOACHIM: We can't fire, sir!
KHAN: Why can't you?
JOACHIM: They've damaged the photon-control and the warp drive. We must withdraw.

Unlike the Enterprise, apparently Scotty can get a few shots from the phasers with the warp drive down but the Reliant could not (most likely because Khan's crew weren't familiar with how to quickly re-route phaser power from auxiliary power.) The Enterprise most likely didn't finish off the Reliant because they used up those "few shots" from the batteries.

The battle later in the Mutara Nebula we see that the Reliant has most likely routed phaser power from the impulse engines.

Saquist, I know you really are rooting for the Reliant's "rollbar" phasers to be more powerful than the "stock" ball phasers but "The Wrath of Khan" isn't the movie to get that evidence, IMHO

 

[RedShirt]

The Reliant fires at least one torpedo (the one we see that takes out auxiliary power) and we do not see where it hits as it doesn't leave any scar on the top side of the ship...

It hit the underside of the primary hull near the neck.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0504.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0508.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0542.jpg

 

[blssdwlf]

Or was that primary hull, port underside hit a result of the 5-6 hits after the initial phaser attack (from the several camera shaking and explosion sounds in the engine room and bridge scenes prior to the visual photon torpedo firing from the Reliant)? On the damage report prior to the "known" torpedo strike there is a port side saucer hit somewhat close (more to the side) to where the screenshot places the scarring.

Also, the other thing that makes hit hard to place the torpedo to the underside is that when the Reliant fires, it is traveling in the same direction as the Enterprise, placing it forward and likely above the Enterprise from the angle we see on the main viewer. When we follow the torpedo down, it looks like it hits the hull from *above* since you see the sparkly explosion go upward on the main viewer.

 

[Gagarin]

There's also this -
Comparing to this to weapons examples in TOS is troublesome. That's 20 years or so difference in-universe, and old-tech to 'new-tech'. For all we know the external bits of 2285 Enterprise were 5 times as durable than 2245 Enterprise.

And this-
What was the intent of the SFX artists and the script? Was Khan toying with Enterprise? Or were they going full force to disable the ship...and then toy around with the torpedo hits?
Certainly the SFX was trying to look cool and help tell a story...don't know if there was an intent of Reliant having powered phasers down to 20% or not.

And this-
Yes, there was a problem in TMP with firing the phasers at the asteroid. The phasers must be fed off the Intermix power pretty directly. They could probably fire almost right away had they been working. But they had seconds until the thing was going to hit. AND the 'warp power' Intermix wasn't gonna charge them because it was cut off. Maybe they also could be fed by the secondary systems, given time, but they didn't have time. Surely the phasers don't have a single failpoint. Or maybe they did in 2271...

But by 2285, why wouldn't they have put in thicker 'normal pipes' to the phasers just in case? Maybe a larger capacitor for when power is cutoff? They also started charging phasers (the capacitors?) when they went to yellow alert. Maybe that's the (few shots at full power?)... they'd have a few shots but that would be it, because the Intermix wasn't flowing, and neither was auxiliary power at that point, so nothing was going to be re-charging the phasers after they shot. Shooting them would be pointless against the shields. So they save the few shots for when Reliant was unsheilded.

And this- (more spec)
Sure the weapons in TOS were pretty deadly sometimes to all comers, Federation and Klingon ships alike, but maybe by 2285 the weapons had been calibrated to face the most likely enemy --- Klingon ships, Klingon shields, and Klingon hulls. Maybe there was a cat and mouse game with tweaking the weapons and how the phasers behave (I assume they are somewhat smart weapons, reacting to what's happening with the beam and target). So Reliant was firing strong phasers but they were keyed for non-Federation hulls, so not as effective as they could have been.