Miranda Class Phasers

[Saquist]

We also don't know if all starship hulls are equal, and if all parts on the same starship are equal.

Perhaps the blue/green area outlining the energizers are especially thick/strong - part of an armor belt protecting that part of the ship?

Perhaps the Reliant isn't built to the same standard as Enterprise. 25% more or 25% more thickness and 10% more or 10% less crossmembers or some such.

It could be another plausible variable.

All true.

Very possible. Let's keep in mind that full power phaser shots at long to medium distance from the Enterprise in "The Ultimate Computer" killed everyone aboard the Excalibur. And only four phaser hits was enough to demolish an unshielded Klingon Battlecruiser in "Day of the Dove". The Reliant and Enterprise in "The Wrath of Khan" are firing dozens of phaser shots at point-blank ranges which further suggest lower power settings either deliberately (Khan crippling Kirk's ship) or forced to (Khan losing warp power, Kirk's ship crippled.)

Really? Each spot the battery-powered Enterprise phaser hits either leaves a scar (or blows something up) and has confirmed internal damage via dialogue.

They aimed for weak spot (deflection crystal) THEY ACTUALLY MISSED the first shot. That sort of says the Enterprise's phasers were weaker. Taking out the warp drive likely put Reliant on Auxilary or impulse power JUST LIKE ENTERPRISE. With a few more shots Enterprise could have disable impulse power too.

No. First, the Enterprise hit exactly where they were shooting for. Second, don't confuse fire control for weapon strength or weakness (even though in this case accuracy doesn't even apply since they hit exactly what they were shooting for.)

When the the Enterprise fired, the first hits went to a spot on the side of the crystal dome, past the bridge. The next shots went to the crystal dome. Those shots removed the ability for the Reliant to shoot any of her weapons.

KHAN: Fire! Fire!
JOACHIM: We can't fire, sir!
KHAN: Why can't you?
JOACHIM: They've damaged the photon-control and the warp drive. We must withdraw.

Unlike the Enterprise, apparently Scotty can get a few shots from the phasers with the warp drive down but the Reliant could not (most likely because Khan's crew weren't familiar with how to quickly re-route phaser power from auxiliary power.) The Enterprise most likely didn't finish off the Reliant because they used up those "few shots" from the batteries.

The battle later in the Mutara Nebula we see that the Reliant has most likely routed phaser power from the impulse engines.

Saquist, I know you really are rooting for the Reliant's "rollbar" phasers to be more powerful than the "stock" ball phasers but "The Wrath of Khan" isn't the movie to get that evidence, IMHO

Yeah I'm rooting for reliant to be stronger. Just seems like that's the point of those hard points. But the hull area the hit first doesn't seem to be particlarly important unless the Plasma conduits were over there leading tot he engines...but it doesn't make sense to target that area of the hull...the deflection crystal is a more weaker point than hull. That would take out both phasers and impulse power untill they rerouted.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Like I said before if that was true then ENTERPRISE should have had no phaser power after the mains went down but scotty says the had enough auxillary power for a few shots.

Actually that's for BATTERY power. And I interpretted this as the result of some creative jury rigging on Scotty's part, namely in answer to Kirk's question "Can you get me phaser power?!" Your academy engineer would have looked at the specs and said "No, the mains are out." But Scotty knows those systems inside and out, knows how to bypass the main feeds and tie battery power into the phasers, enough to safely get a couple of discharges out of the emergency supply without shorting out the entire ship.

To put that in numbers (not to be interpretted as a realistic guess) let's say that Enterprise's warp reactor has an output of something like 1,000GW.... 1,000GJ/S. The power transfer circuits are capable of transferring about 20% of that to the phasers, so 200GW maximum input.... 200GJ per second.
Let's say the impulse engine's peak output is about 100GW, however. Budgeting some power for energy for propulsion, ship's systems and other defensive equipment, then your peak phaser output on auxiliary power would be about 50 to 70GW... 50 to 60GJ per second.
TWOK phasers fire in pulses, a rate of about 300spm (5 pulses per second). If each pulse is about 40GJ at full power, then at reduced power each would be 10 to 15GJ. At that reduced power level, Scotty would have to transfer something like 400GJ from the batteries (something like 110 megawatt-hours) from the batteries to the phaser banks. If battery capacity is only something like 200 megawatt-hours, then that "a few shots" is literally all Scotty can safely transfer--not including heavy losses from the rigged up bypasses--without plunging the entire ship into darkness. On the other hand, firing the phasers on FULL POWER from the batteries would deplete the emergency supply in about two seconds.

YMMV.

I don't know that true.
Reliant's phasers pierced the hull every single time. Enterprise didn't.

It appears they DID pierce the hull both times they scored a hit in that first encounter. Joachim mentions that the ship had lost warp power as well as fire control after that return phaser strike; a couple hours later, he comes to the bridge and informs Khan "Impulse power restored," making this a third system to be crippled by the phaser strike.

We can obviously conclude that the impulse engines were damaged when Sulu blew up the deflection crystal. But what about the warp drive and fire control? Reliant's engine room is directly forward and below the impulse engine, and presumably, so is the circuitry that controls their targeting sensors. BOTH of these were damaged in a single phaser strike; this implies a pretty deep cutting phaser beam. Not enough against their shields, but more than enough for their hull plating.

Later in the Mutara Nebula, Enterprise' phasers again carve fairly deep below the hull plating: first, when firing at Reliant's bridge, blowing out an entire rear bulkhead and killing most everyone on the bridge. Second, the phaser hit on the port nacelle, which apparently blows the guts out of the thing.

Neither Reliant nor Enterprise had warp drive operational in this battle, which means phasers would be running directly off the impulse drives at considerably less than maximum output. These would be equivalent to Reliant's first shot, which APPEARS to be fired at only one quarter of normal power. It stands to reason that if Khan had put full warp power into that first shot, he would have blown the Enterprise clean in half.

Makes me think: if Spock hadn't interrupted him, Kirk's full line would have been "WHO knew where to hit is? And WHY are we still alive?"

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But by 2285, why wouldn't they have put in thicker 'normal pipes' to the phasers just in case? Maybe a larger capacitor for when power is cutoff? They also started charging phasers (the capacitors?) when they went to yellow alert. Maybe that's the (few shots at full power?)... they'd have a few shots but that would be it, because the Intermix wasn't flowing, and neither was auxiliary power at that point, so nothing was going to be re-charging the phasers after they shot. Shooting them would be pointless against the shields. So they save the few shots for when Reliant was unsheilded.

I think that starship phasers draw so much energy that power cells mainly only serve as a kind of energy buffer for realtime power transfer, not a storage device per se. You might think of it like the magazine of a battleship gun. In something like an assault rifle, the magazine is part of the gun and both function basically like a single unit; to reload the gun, you change magazines. On a battleship, the magazine is a seperate unit deep below deck surrounded by armored boxes; to reload the gun, you take a shell out of the magazine and then ram it into the breach with a couple hundred pounds of powder. Now if you imagine that a new generation of battleships use their boilers to quickly cast fresh shells from the flames every fifteen seconds, then you've no need for a big magazine complex, you just hoist the fresh shells right up out of the engine room and fire them as needed.

Obviously, backup power feeds have been installed since 2271 that will allow the phasers to fire at a lower power level, probably drawing on the lessons learned in TMP and elsewhere. Reliant might not have recieved those upgrades, though, and wouldn't be able to get her phasers online until Joachim and his people managed to rig the power grid half a day later.

 

[Saquist]

Actually that's for BATTERY power. And I interpretted this as the result of some creative jury rigging on Scotty's part, namely in answer to Kirk's question "Can you get me phaser power?!" Your academy engineer would have looked at the specs and said "No, the mains are out." But Scotty knows those systems inside and out, knows how to bypass the main feeds and tie battery power into the phasers, enough to safely get a couple of discharges out of the emergency supply without shorting out the entire ship.

That's a bit too much inference for my taste.

TWOK phasers fire in pulses, a rate of about 300spm (5 pulses per second). If each pulse is about 40GJ at full power, then at reduced power each would be 10 to 15GJ. At that reduced power level, Scotty would have to transfer something like 400GJ from the batteries (something like 110 megawatt-hours) from the batteries to the phaser banks. If battery capacity is only something like 200 megawatt-hours, then that "a few shots" is literally all Scotty can safely transfer--not including heavy losses from the rigged up bypasses--without plunging the entire ship into darkness.

Note: That eventuality didn't happen. They still had power after firing.

On the other hand, firing the phasers on FULL POWER from the batteries would deplete the emergency supply in about two seconds.

ah...I get you.

It appears they DID pierce the hull both times they scored a hit in that first encounter. Joachim mentions that the ship had lost warp power as well as fire control after that return phaser strike; a couple hours later, he comes to the bridge and informs Khan "Impulse power restored," making this a third system to be crippled by the phaser strike.

Can't go there.
The first shot showed no penetration.
I can't go by a system damage report to infer hull breach.

We can obviously conclude that the impulse engines were damaged when Sulu blew up the deflection crystal. But what about the warp drive and fire control? Reliant's engine room is directly forward and below the impulse engine, and presumably, so is the circuitry that controls their targeting sensors. BOTH of these were damaged in a single phaser strike; this implies a pretty deep cutting phaser beam. Not enough against their shields, but more than enough for their hull plating.

I presumed residual effects of damage tot he deflectoion crystal. I think you're presuming too much. Khan's group is 300 year removed from this technology. Yeah they're smart but asking them repair heavy damage like Scotty's well trained team is like asking me to believe toddlers did the repair on Reliant. The Chrystal flow can be by passed. Blasting likely had residual effects on other sub systems.

Later in the Mutara Nebula, Enterprise' phasers again carve fairly deep below the hull plating: first, when firing at Reliant's bridge, blowing out an entire rear bulkhead and killing most everyone on the bridge. Second, the phaser hit on the port nacelle, which apparently blows the guts out of the thing.

Yep they have impulse power at this point. But I don't think that's the reason. The engines are open to space. no bit deal. They fired right through the vents and the bridge hit is suspect as penetration on the level that occured with Reliants shots opening the battle or even when they fired on the port tube which clearly takes it out....hard to say.

 

[blssdwlf]

Can't go there.
The first shot showed no penetration.
I can't go by a system damage report to infer hull breach.

No penetration from the first shots from the Enterprise to the side of the crystal dome? Really?

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0525.jpg

or if it's blocked, it's the top left pic

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=309&page=8

The Reliant was hit in two places. One took out warp drive (=phasers out). The other photon control. Yes there was hull penetration. We know from later dialogue that impulse went out and had to be restored so the impulse damage was collateral damage, IMHO. I suspect we'd see bigger "surface explosions" on the Reliant if the Enterprise had targeted her energizers but she probably didn't have enough shots to make that happen.

 

[Saquist]

Can't go there.
The first shot showed no penetration.
I can't go by a system damage report to infer hull breach.

No penetration from the first shots from the Enterprise to the side of the crystal dome? Really?

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0525.jpg

or if it's blocked, it's the top left pic

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=309&page=8

The Reliant was hit in two places. One took out warp drive (=phasers out). The other photon control. Yes there was hull penetration. We know from later dialogue that impulse went out and had to be restored so the impulse damage was collateral damage, IMHO. I suspect we'd see bigger "surface explosions" on the Reliant if the Enterprise had targeted her energizers but she probably didn't have enough shots to make that happen.

I'm struggling to understand why you guys are equating subsystem damage with hull breach. They are no synonomous and never have been in Trek.

 

[blssdwlf]

I guess you didn't look at the screen shot of the Enterprise's phasers cutting open the hull on the Reliant just like the Reliant did to the Enterprise's port side?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Can't go there.
The first shot showed no penetration.
I can't go by a system damage report to infer hull breach.

Unless the damaged systems are physically sitting directly outside the hull plating, then some penetration of the hull is all but certain. Whether or not it breached the pressure hull and damaged internal crew spaces is debatable, but SOMETHING beneath the hull plating must have been damaged in a very significant way in order to have the effects that it did.

We can obviously conclude that the impulse engines were damaged when Sulu blew up the deflection crystal. But what about the warp drive and fire control? Reliant's engine room is directly forward and below the impulse engine, and presumably, so is the circuitry that controls their targeting sensors. BOTH of these were damaged in a single phaser strike; this implies a pretty deep cutting phaser beam. Not enough against their shields, but more than enough for their hull plating.

I presumed residual effects of damage tot he deflectoion crystal.

Which would explain the impulse engines, and if Reliant's intermix assembly is similar to Enterprise', might also explain the warp drive. But it would NOT explain the loss of fire control; even if the ship lost phaser power, it should still be able to launch photon torpedoes.

I think you're presuming too much. Khan's group is 300 year removed from this technology. Yeah they're smart but asking them repair heavy damage like Scotty's well trained team is like asking me to believe toddlers did the repair on Reliant.

First of all, the deflection crystal is not a component of the ship's fire control system, in fact it's not related to it in any way. That's like trying to knock out an Aegis ship's VLS system by hitting it in the propellers with a 5-inch shell.

Second of all, they DID repair the Reliant, that much is not up for debate. We also know that they are smart enough to quickly learn about basic starship operations, given how easily Khan managed to take over the ship in "Space Seed" and even managed to rig a self destruct sequence into the engine room when his plan backfired. The intelligence of the Augments cannot be overstated; as Spock wisely put it, their only weakness is their lack of experience.

Later in the Mutara Nebula, Enterprise' phasers again carve fairly deep below the hull plating: first, when firing at Reliant's bridge, blowing out an entire rear bulkhead and killing most everyone on the bridge. Second, the phaser hit on the port nacelle, which apparently blows the guts out of the thing.

Yep they have impulse power at this point. But I don't think that's the reason. The engines are open to space. no bit deal. They fired right through the vents and the bridge hit is suspect as penetration on the level that occured with Reliants shots opening the battle or even when they fired on the port tube which clearly takes it out....hard to say.

Damage levels appear perfectly consistent in both cases; Reliant's opening attack is roughly equivalent to the bridge strike in the Mutara nebula. The phaser strike in the torpedo room is visibly more impressive, but it only disables the portside tube and therefore causes less system-wide damage than any other phaser strike in the film.

Either way, their damage levels seem equivalent throughout the entire film. For Reliant's first attack this can be interpreted as intentional, while in subsequent exchanges it is actually the best they can dish out at reduced power.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Can't go there.
The first shot showed no penetration.
I can't go by a system damage report to infer hull breach.

No penetration from the first shots from the Enterprise to the side of the crystal dome? Really?

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0525.jpg

or if it's blocked, it's the top left pic

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=309&page=8

The Reliant was hit in two places. One took out warp drive (=phasers out). The other photon control. Yes there was hull penetration. We know from later dialogue that impulse went out and had to be restored so the impulse damage was collateral damage, IMHO. I suspect we'd see bigger "surface explosions" on the Reliant if the Enterprise had targeted her energizers but she probably didn't have enough shots to make that happen.

I'm struggling to understand why you guys are equating subsystem damage with hull breach.

Nobody is, only with penetration of the outer hull plating. Since those subsystems are BENEATH that plating, then the phasers would have to have penetrated them in order to cause that kind of damage.

Penetration of the inner/pressure hull requires a much deeper strike, evidently, enough to not only penetrate the pressure vessel but to disable its emergency systems as well.

 

[Saquist]

I guess you didn't look at the screen shot of the Enterprise's phasers cutting open the hull on the Reliant just like the Reliant did to the Enterprise's port side?

I definitely saw it. However I don't come to the conclusion that it must be a hull breach.

Unless the damaged systems are physically sitting directly outside the hull plating, then some penetration of the hull is all but certain.

I can't draw that conclusion either.

Whether or not it breached the pressure hull and damaged internal crew spaces is debatable, but SOMETHING beneath the hull plating must have been damaged in a very significant way in order to have the effects that it did.

I can't necessarily draw that conclusion from the first shot either. If I regard it as a precision strike then the problem is I don't have any indication that it was a hull breach. Decyphering which shot took out which controls is a futile. We're given no indication even deductively that the first shot took out anything or was a breach.

What I do know is that the second shot could have done all the damage listed...Fire Control and impulse engines.

I presumed residual effects of damage tot he deflectoion crystal.

Which would explain the impulse engines, and if Reliant's intermix assembly is similar to Enterprise', might also explain the warp drive. But it would NOT explain the loss of fire control;

Speculatively many other power systems could have been temporarily over load, fire control could have been one of them. Remeber the strike center was a power source. If the fire controls were on the same EPS taps no matter where they were they would have been hit by surge.

even if the ship lost phaser power, it should still be able to launch photon torpedoes.

Lauchers are powered mag rail accelerators. And anti matter isn't stored in the torps it's delivered to the weapon before launching.

Second of all, they DID repair the Reliant, that much is not up for debate. We also know that they are smart enough to quickly learn about basic starship operations, given how easily Khan managed to take over the ship in "Space Seed" and even managed to rig a self destruct sequence into the engine room when his plan backfired. The intelligence of the Augments cannot be overstated; as Spock wisely put it, their only weakness is their lack of experience.

It wasn't serious repair work though Enterprise didn't score the same decisive hits Reliant did in the opening exchange.

Damage levels appear perfectly consistent in both cases; Reliant's opening attack is roughly equivalent to the bridge strike in the Mutara nebula. The phaser strike in the torpedo room is visibly more impressive, but it only disables the portside tube and therefore causes less system-wide damage than any other phaser strike in the film.

It's an isolated area. Damage was restricted and localized.

Nobody is, only with penetration of the outer hull plating. Since those subsystems are BENEATH that plating, then the phasers would have to have penetrated them in order to cause that kind of damage.

Penetration of the inner/pressure hull requires a much deeper strike, evidently, enough to not only penetrate the pressure vessel but to disable its emergency systems as well.

We don't know where the subsystem for fire control is.
We also know that even with shields up subsystems sustain damage. I can not infer breach just because a subsystem casualty.

 

[blssdwlf]

^ With that kind of thinking, do you think the Reliant's opening phaser volley penetrated the hull?

 

[Saquist]

^ With that kind of thinking, do you think the Reliant's opening phaser volley penetrated the hull?

Definitely.
While we don't see sucking vaccum we see containment doors dropp everywhere and Scotty says they lost a lot of people down there. Books says it was definitely a hull breach too.

But this is more intersting...
There wasn't TWO seperate shots on Reliant on the opening exchange. IT WAS ONE.

The phasers track over to the deflection crystal and the line of stiching can be seen in the foreground.

 

[blssdwlf]

^ With that kind of thinking, do you think the Reliant's opening phaser volley penetrated the hull?

Definitely.

Even though the Enterprise cause the same kind of cut open hull result that the Reliant does?

While we don't see sucking vaccum we see containment doors dropp everywhere and Scotty says they lost a lot of people down there.

Scotty says no such thing and the containment doors come down most likely to protect the engine room from radiation as there was gases being blown into the horizontal shaft, not getting sucked out into space.

SCOTT: We're just hanging on, sir. The main energisers out.
KIRK (on intercom): Try auxiliary power.
SCOTT: Aye sir.

and later in the sickbay with the midshipman who died from RADIATION burns.
SCOTT: He stayed at his post ...when the trainees ran.

That's all Scotty says during the initial battle.

But this is more intersting...
There wasn't TWO seperate shots on Reliant on the opening exchange. IT WAS ONE.

The phasers track over to the deflection crystal and the line of stiching can be seen in the foreground.

There were two separate shots (or volleys). Why? Kirk orders the phasers to be fired, twice.

The first volley hits and cuts open the hull to starboard side between the bridge and deflection crystal. The last pulses of that volley track towards the deflection crystal but does not hit the crystal dome (just the housing).

Kirk says "fire" a SECOND time and then we see the dome get hit and it blows up.

The dome blowing up
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0527.jpg

The penetrated hull on the Reliant from above
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0830.jpg

And the area hit on the Reliant appears even MORE damaged when we see it again - first looks can be deceiving, apparently
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0901.jpg

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Unless the damaged systems are physically sitting directly outside the hull plating, then some penetration of the hull is all but certain.

I can't draw that conclusion either.

What other conclusion is possible? Other than Sulu telekinetically pinching off those circuits using the phaser beam as a distraction...?

I can't necessarily draw that conclusion from the first shot either. If I regard it as a precision strike then the problem is I don't have any indication that it was a hull breach.

There's no indication in the film that ANY of those shots breached the hull, even Reliant's initial strike into engineering. We've already presented theories into how this could be, but whether the phaser beams created a breach or not, they obviously damaged systems BENEATH the hull plating. That is penetration, plain and simple. You may wish to argue for a different KIND of penetration, but it IS the same penetration for both vessels in both cases. To use McCoy's exact words, "You gave as well as you got."

Decyphering which shot took out which controls is a futile. We're given no indication even deductively that the first shot took out anything or was a breach.

Then you've got to ask yourself what EXACTLY it was that Sulu locked the phasers onto for that first shot. As Reliant had previously demonstrated, at close range and low relative velocities you can pretty much call your shot.

What I do know is that the second shot could have done all the damage listed...Fire Control and impulse engines.

And I know it could NOT, since fire control is in no way related to the impulse engines.

Speculatively many other power systems could have been temporarily over load, fire control could have been one of them. Remeber the strike center was a power source.

Linked, incidentally, to the main energizers under the usual intermix layout. But Enterprise was still able to transfer power to phasers, which means Sulu's phaser strike caused considerably more damage than Khan's (which can actually be inferred from the effects on the bridge).

Just hitting the deflection crystal would cause all of that? If so, you don't see that as a STUPENDOUS design flaw?

Lauchers are powered mag rail accelerators. And anti matter isn't stored in the torps it's delivered to the weapon before launching.

According to fanon materials, sure. In the TMP era there was no established information at all about how the torpedoes worked; even having a physical casing was a brand new innovation, and they hadn't been established as being antimatter based by then anyway.

But even assuming the retcon, Reliant's torpedo launcher is in a completely different module, physically isolated from the impulse engines by a pair of huge pylons. We already know those launchers are pretty robust; Enterprise is able to fire off the starboard launcher on auxiliary power with the portside launcher blown to smithereens. The only logical conclusion, therefore, is that Sulu hit something that robbed Reliant of its ability to TARGET its weapons, which is why Joachim says "The photon control" instead of "power to weapons."

It wasn't serious repair work though Enterprise didn't score the same decisive hits Reliant did in the opening exchange.

Yes it did: two phaser hits from Reliant vs. two from Enterprise, taking out main power and warp drive. But Enterprise's attack ALSO took out Reliant's fire control, which almost makes up for the lack of a torpedo hit.

It's an isolated area. Damage was restricted and localized.

... TO THE TORPEDO ROOM. And yet the starboard bay isn't affected at all; they're even able to hold Spock's funeral there a day later, while the portside tube remains out of action for the duration of the ship's life.

We don't know where the subsystem for fire control is.

We know it's somewhere beneath the hull plating, so it can be assumed that the phaser strike penetrated at least that deep.

We also know that even with shields up subsystems sustain damage.

We also know that the hull can be breached even with shields up. So this is a non-issue.

 

[Gagarin]

This has stepped into the ridiculous.

But by the way, Enterprise damaged "the PHOTON control and the warp drive", not "the fire control". Khan's toadie doesn't say anything about "fire control" when explaining "we can't fire, sir".

 

[Saquist]

Even though the Enterprise cause the same kind of cut open hull result that the Reliant does?

Your First image shows only black marking not hull disfigurement

While we don't see sucking vaccum we see containment doors dropp everywhere and Scotty says they lost a lot of people down there.

Scotty says no such thing and the containment doors come down most likely to protect the engine room from radiation as there was gases being blown into the horizontal shaft, not getting sucked out into space.

True. I just looked at it. So I can't conclude hull breaches on either side.

There were two separate shots (or volleys). Why? Kirk orders the phasers to be fired, twice.

The first volley hits and cuts open the hull to starboard side between the bridge and deflection crystal. The last pulses of that volley track towards the deflection crystal but does not hit the crystal dome (just the housing).

Same style of strike as Reliant's against Enterprise. The scaring shows one continuous line to the deflector though. Enterprise had a bit more than a few shots.

Kirk says "fire" a SECOND time and then we see the dome get hit and it blows up.

It could go either way.
Kirk says twice the scaring says one strike.

There's no indication in the film that ANY of those shots breached the hull, even Reliant's initial strike into engineering. We've already presented theories into how this could be, but whether the phaser beams created a breach or not, they obviously damaged systems BENEATH the hull plating. That is penetration, plain and simple.

That's Hull damage.
That's subsystem damage not penetration.
And conosidering the visual evidence I have to conclude there was never any sort of hull breach on either side.

Then you've got to ask yourself what EXACTLY it was that Sulu locked the phasers onto for that first shot. As Reliant had previously demonstrated, at close range and low relative velocities you can pretty much call your shot.

That wasn't close range.
Reliant was orbiting Enterprise at distance.
Reliant came withing 300 meters.
I'm not sure if it was a miss but it's possible that Reliants movements caused a miss.

Just hitting the deflection crystal would cause all of that? If so, you don't see that as a STUPENDOUS design flaw?

That's not topic at hand. The whole positions of Engineering on the Enterprise AND EXCELSIOR is a considerable design flaw. But this is about breaches, damage and phaser power.

According to fanon materials, sure. In the TMP era there was no established information at all about how the torpedoes worked; even having a physical casing was a brand new innovation, and they hadn't been established as being antimatter based by then anyway.

Fanon or are you refering to tech manuals.

But even assuming the retcon, Reliant's torpedo launcher is in a completely different module, physically isolated from the impulse engines by a pair of huge pylons. We already know those launchers are pretty robust; Enterprise is able to fire off the starboard launcher on auxiliary power with the portside launcher blown to smithereens. The only logical conclusion, therefore, is that Sulu hit something that robbed Reliant of its ability to TARGET its weapons, which is why Joachim says "The photon control" instead of "power to weapons."

We don't know if the power systems are isolated. Everything is linked by power it's just a matter of how much.

Yes it did: two phaser hits from Reliant vs. two from Enterprise, taking out main power and warp drive. But Enterprise's attack ALSO took out Reliant's fire control, which almost makes up for the lack of a torpedo hit.

I don't know about that.
Enterprises hit caused far less splash and over less than the hull as Reliant.

... TO THE TORPEDO ROOM. And yet the starboard bay isn't affected at all; they're even able to hold Spock's funeral there a day later, while the portside tube remains out of action for the duration of the ship's life.

I don't know if we can go by this...physically what we see on the set of movie isn't possible. There isn't that much room.

We know it's somewhere beneath the hull plating, so it can be assumed that the phaser strike penetrated at least that deep.

We know it was damaged, that doesn't tell us where it is.
We also know that the hull can be breached even with shields up. So this is a non-issue.

Depends on the weapon.
It doesn't tell us it was a breach. At this point...considering all the evidence....there doesn't seem to be any hull breaches in Star Trek II.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It could go either way.
Kirk says twice the scaring says one strike.

Two strikes into the same target is still two strikes.

That's Hull damage.
That's subsystem damage not penetration.
And conosidering the visual evidence I have to conclude there was never any sort of hull breach on either side.

So how do YOU suppose the phasers managed to damage systems inside the ship? By osmosis?

That wasn't close range.
Reliant was orbiting Enterprise at distance.

At an extremely CLOSE distance in starship terms, five or six kilometers tops. We've seen Enterprise accurately hit targets half a light second away.

I'm not sure if it was a miss but it's possible that Reliants movements caused a miss.

Possible, but EXTREMELY unlikely.

That's not topic at hand. The whole positions of Engineering on the Enterprise AND EXCELSIOR is a considerable design flaw. But this is about breaches, damage and phaser power.

That plus the fact that the only SURFACE feature damaged in the entire movie was Reliant's deflection crystal. You've put yourself in the position of claiming that Reliant managed to knock out Enterprise's main energizer--and Enterprise managed to do the same to reliant--without either of their shots ever penetrating the other's hull plating. That is an extraordinary claim to say the least.

Fanon or are you refering to tech manuals.

Both.

I don't know about that.
Enterprises hit caused far less splash and over less than the hull as Reliant.

It DOES, however, cause an explosion on the bridge, which Reliant's phaser strike does not.

I don't know if we can go by this...physically what we see on the set of movie isn't possible. There isn't that much room.

Then add that to the list of set continuities in Trek movies, like the engine room's corridor to nowhere and the recreation deck. Starfleet, it seems, has always been rather fond of TARDIS technology.

We know it's somewhere beneath the hull plating, so it can be assumed that the phaser strike penetrated at least that deep.

It doesn't tell us it was a breach. At this point...considering all the evidence....there doesn't seem to be any hull breaches in Star Trek II.

Breach or not, it is not up for dispute whether or not the phaser beams managed to impart destructive energies on the INTERIOR of the ship. They clearly did, so it's immaterial.

If anything, it brings us back to the original case that if neither ship actually breached the hull, then their phaser strength is at about rough parity throughout the film. Likewise, hull breaches quickly sealed by emergency forcefields (a pretty safe bet under the circumstances) would still put them at phaser power parity at all times.

 

[blssdwlf]

I don't know about that.
Enterprises hit caused far less splash and over less than the hull as Reliant.

Are you going to argue that the Enterprise's phasers were more powerful in the nebula than the Reliant's because they caused a massive explosion (or bigger splash) when they hit Reliant's warp nacelle?

At these low power settings, we're really seeing secondary explosions (or splash) not the "cutting" effects. The Reliant's phaser hits on the energisers would have released massive amounts of energy.

Notice that the splash fx was much smaller when the torpedo room was hit even though it left the same amount of cutting/scarring into the hull? Nothing energetic was hit like the energisers, IMO. If you are using "splash" fx to determine weapon strength in TWOK you should at least consider what is causing it...

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Even if you don't punch through the outer hull/armor, as long as they're unshielded, a system half way across the ship will explode and the ship will be heavily damaged. There's your explanation, newtype_alpha.

I know this for a fact because I've watched Voyager before.

 

[Saquist]

So how do YOU suppose the phasers managed to damage systems inside the ship? By osmosis?

That's a different issue.
The evidence at hand:
No Fires.
No blow outs
No debris
With out these elements how can we say ti's a Hull Breach?
I'm having a hard time applying that label.

At an extremely CLOSE distance in starship terms, five or six kilometers tops. We've seen Enterprise accurately hit targets half a light second away.

I'm sure that's true but the question is what happened here?

That plus the fact that the only SURFACE feature damaged in the entire movie was Reliant's deflection crystal. You've put yourself in the position of claiming that Reliant managed to knock out Enterprise's main energizer--and Enterprise managed to do the same to reliant--without either of their shots ever penetrating the other's hull plating. That is an extraordinary claim to say the least.

It's not the claim that's important.
In fact no claim has been been made concerning how the phaser damaged the subsystem. The claim here is that Reliant's phasers were more powerful than Enterprise. Considering Enterprise condition it might not be possible to prove.

Both.

But...that would make your inital comment "fanon" as well." We have no offical information on how the torpedo tubes were powered do we?

It DOES, however, cause an explosion on the bridge, which Reliant's phaser strike does not.

Indeed, but a surge could go in a random direction theoretically. Measuring the splash damage may be a better indicator of just what kind of wattage was applied to the hull.

Breach or not, it is not up for dispute whether or not the phaser beams managed to impart destructive energies on the INTERIOR of the ship. They clearly did, so it's immaterial.

Correct.

If anything, it brings us back to the original case that if neither ship actually breached the hull, then their phaser strength is at about rough parity throughout the film.

I can't concur.
Reliant's Splash against Enterprise's Hull was at least 2x as large. Reliant caused much more damage against Enterprise.
Enterprise lost main power permanently. They lost Impulse Power, They lost shields permanently.

While Reliant lost photon controls, Warp Drive and impulse power.

Likewise, hull breaches quickly sealed by emergency forcefields (a pretty safe bet under the circumstances) would still put them at phaser power parity at all times.[/QUOTE]

Isn't that "fanon" too? We never saw forcefields in TMP or TWOK over damaged sections.