Miranda Class Phasers

[Crazy Eddie]

...not really tracking with the argument that Enterprise still didn't have auxiliary power by the end of the movie. All auxiliary power is is a cluster of fusion reactors. You don't need the fusion reactors to run the impulse engines if you have main power (the Intermix shaft powers the warp drive and the impulse engines normally).

TEMPORARILY FAILED means their failure was of little consequence... it was awhile between that report and the battle in the nebula. If they got partial main power in 2 hours, they were definitely able to get the fusion reactors back online.

@Gagarin, as far as the movie suggests, they never restored auxiliary power. When Kirk was on Regula 1, Spock's damage report indicated Main Power and Auxiliary power were down. Even though it was a "temporary failure", Spock wasn't confident that it was a sure thing to be repaired ("Restoration may be possible...").

When Kirk returns to the Enterprise, Spock only lists Main Power as being partially restored but even when pressed by Kirk, Spock never says, "Auxiliary Power, too."

For the most part I would agree, without auxiliary power they'd be running everything from "partial mains" from the heavily bypassed (and probably overloaded) main energizer. From TMP, we know that Auxiliary power can be added to the mains to supplement a struggling system (deflectors, for example) and not having it means you have nothing to fall back on if the mains are insufficient.

Clearly auxiliary power CAN be routed through the intermix, but if the mains are online you'd still have close to 100% power available; what you wouldn't have is the extra 30% the auxiliaries would provide if you suddenly needed it in a pinch.

I'm sorry. I simply can't accept all of canon as a representation and reasoning of power or fire power for TWOK. Consistency isn't Trek's strong point.

Then what difference does it make whether Reliant's phasers were more powerful or not? Even if they were in TWOK, they wouldn't be anywhere else, and by TVH they probably weren't even phasers anymore.

I see a reflection in the form of very light line at the top and nothing at the bottom.

On the one on the right right, yes. The others are either all the way up, or all the way DOWN. But since I don't believe Joachim would have accidentally set Reliant's phasers on stun, I assume they were all the way up.

We weren't talking about the initial failure but the temporary failure after the first restoration.

Unless you're saying Reliant attacked Enterprise while Kirk was on the station, the temporary failure is irrelevant. Enterprise' phaser attack put Reliant's impulse engines out of operation for almost a day; Enterprise, on the other hand, was under power again after about an hour.

Granted.
Yet this doesn't mean the Mains were down.

Doesn't mean they were UP either.

Khan knows by this point that Spock's estimates were subterfuge.

No he doesn't. He only knows that Kirk, somehow, got off of Regula-1 and back onto his ship and was now mocking him for having failed to think of something. That means Khan missed something--which pisses him off--and though he doesn't yet understand WHAT he missed, he's furious at Kirk for rubbing his nose in it.

I kinda think Joachim suspected they were being lured into a trap, but couldn't explain how or why. Not that it would have made a difference for the Best of the Supermen's lunatic obsession.

But I think at this point after Spock says Reliant does indeed out gun them that Reliant's Main Power is functioning and indeed it was never said to have been lost.

That would have been lost with warp drive, actually. More to the point, "outgun" doesn't have a lot to do with power and more to do with weapon counts. With four torpedo tubes to Enterprise' two, Reliant does INDEED outgun the Enterprise even under ideal circumstances.

The statement was sufficient.
At no time in the quoted did I say it was by direct cause of Reliant. (which is undetermined)

You said "Every time Reliant hits Enterprise it takes out main power." If Reliant's phasers had nothing to do with the loss of main power the SECOND time, then this is untrue.

You said it depended on warp power to operate.

AT FULL POWER, yes. Even the derelict Constellation with no warp drive to speak of could recharge a single phaser bank (and so could Enterprise). But if your phasers are running on emergency batteries, it doesn't really matter what force setting you put them on, they're NOT going to be firing at 100% (or sometimes, at all) unless you've got a hell of a lot of power behind them.

I haven't come to a conclusion yet.

True, you STARTED with the conclusion that Reliant's rollbar phaser banks were initially more powerful than Enterprise' phaser banks, and this entire discussion has basically revolved around you trying to shoehorn visual and verbal evidence into that conclusion.

Is that still your starting assumption, or do you think maybe there's something else going on here?

Further. When asked about the mains Scott says he doesn't think they'll be getting them back...

When exactly does Scotty say that?

Spock says Reliant outguns them

Adequately explained by Reliant's heavier torpedo armament, four tubes to two.

Visual evidence confirms splash radius from Reliants phasers is usually larger than Enterprise.

This has already been analyzed by blssdwlf and found NOT to be the case.

Evidence in it's broadest context is anything which may be used to substantiate a claim.

Yes. And nothing substantiates the claim that Reliant's phaser banks under NORMAL circumstances would be more powerful than Enterprise' phaser banks under the same conditions. The biggest reason for this is that we never do get to see what kind of damage ENTERPRISE would have done under identical conditions. And there's still the fact that Reliant's phasers AREN'T being provided with full warp power at any time, which means that as powerful as that first attack was, it could have been a hell of a lot worse.

We don't know that.

You have not provided a SHRED of evidence that they are.

OTOH (on the other hand) the photon torpedo loading board does not include or require a power transfer from the warp drives.

The actuality is, the ship was completely redesign. Nothing but bare basics are the same.

Phaser power being dependent on input power solidly falls into the category of "basics."

Understood but some of his conclusions are not relying on direct inference but rather his speculation on how these systems work.

Even his most speculative conclusions have been solidly grounded in precedent from TMP and prior TOS situations. That's considerably more than I can say for yours.

Heres the problem.
The power to destroy an asteroid is a nuclear level event.
The asteroid was described as the size of Earth's moon. (ridiculous) We're talking hundreds of GIGA TONS of TNT to split that fissure. That is not what we saw in the Cage when all power is directed to the guns...

It WOULD have been, if we had seen what really happened instead of the Talosian illusion. Then again, the ground phaser bank in "the cage" did light up the entire sky behind the elevator platform, which suggests the Talosians used their combined mental effort to hide not only the destruction of the elevator, but the big fucking mushroom cloud in the distance where that phaser beam leveled a small mountain range two hundred kilometers away.

but more importantly if Enterprise had GIGA TON level energy production it could physically knock the Asteroid off course...

Which was the FIRST thing they tried, using the navigational deflector. Spock didn't try to use the phasers until after this had failed.

Moreover, I think you're underestimating the amount of energy we're talking about for deflecting an object the size (and presumably the mass) of the moon. This is the sort of feat that even the Enterprise-D had trouble with more than a century later.

either the asteroid's size was ludicrously large or we are the victim of editing and there were many more sequences of phaser fire than what we saw.

It is IMPLIED that the phasers were still firing for quite a while after Scotty started crying about his poor bairns. Not that it matters much, because it still means that the phasers require (and are capable of drawing) the full power of the warp engines in order to produce their maximum destructive output. Otherwise, Enterprise could have fired at that asteroid from now until doomsday and never taxed the warp drives.

Only a false report would necessitate a visual damage assessment.

Or the complete lack of a verbal report, as in the case of the Enterprise.

The key word not addressed is inconsistency.
The model did not reflect the visual report on sceen.

So what? There's no reason to assume that all the damage the ship sustained would even be visible on the model. When it comes to Star Trek, it usually isn't.

Not equivalent.
One is a power system the other is a propulsion system

Enterprise didn't hit the warp propulsion system (contained in the nacelles) so it must have hit the prime mover that powered it.

Reliant didn't lose impulse (It was damaged)

... which means it was not available UNTIL Joachim restored it.

Reliant lost warp drive, which--when it comes to shields and weapons--is the same thing.

I can not concur.

Let me put it this way: in all of TOS, the movies and TNG, we have never seen a situation where a starship is able to maintain full shields.

They never said they lost impulse power. They merely stated it was restored.

So you're saying Joachim wasn't actually REPAIRING the impulse engines, he was just degreasing the fuel lines and polishing the gaskets to a high gloss. Can't go off conquering the universe with a squeaky impulse engine, right?

Loss of photon control means torpedoes are out; loss of warp drives means phasers are out (thus Joachim's answer to Khan's "Fire! Fire!" is a "We can't fire, Sir!").

It means they couldn't fire, not that they didn't have power.

If they had the power, they'd be able to fire phasers at least. Otherwise "they've damaged the photon control and the warp drive!" doesn't work as an explanation.

 

[Saquist]

@Gagarin, as far as the movie suggests, they never restored auxiliary power. When Kirk was on Regula 1, Spock's damage report indicated Main Power and Auxiliary power were down. Even though it was a "temporary failure", Spock wasn't confident that it was a sure thing to be repaired ("Restoration may be possible...").

Never: At no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever: Spock says temporarily. In this case you've created a contradiction between your conclusion and Spock's guess on timing to mean it didn't happen that disregards the use of the impulse engines (visually later on), even after there is a direct implication that the Enterprise wasn't going any where without impulse power.

I believe this one is simple.
While it's never said it's certainly implied strongly by the use of the impulse engines even after the mains were taken off-line. (seems pretty open and shut) I see no doubt, putting it to bed.

Then what difference does it make whether Reliant's phasers were more powerful or not? Even if they were in TWOK, they wouldn't be anywhere else, and by TVH they probably weren't even phasers anymore.

For me it sets the tier for the Miranda Class Starship and may justify somes perception that it was destroyer of sorts. Fando always seems to regard it as a lesser ship. I'm searching for the truth.

I assume they were all the way up.

Concur.
The problem is this is the actual charge indicator not the red squares which only tell us warp power transfer supply. It's like on dial is the valve and the other is the regulator.

Enterprise' phaser attack put Reliant's impulse engines out of operation for almost a day;

At what point did a day pass?

Doesn't mean they were UP either.

A conclusion is dictated by both status quo and motivating evidence. In this case the status quo is that the mains were on-line. Untill we see evidence to the contrary visually or a verbal report or the effective use of some device that necessitate main power or vise versa then the proper conclusion is the mains were on-line through precedent of status quo.

No he doesn't.

He knows. "There she is, and not so wounded as we were lead to believe" and this is before Joachims objections to chasing Enterprise

That would have been lost with warp drive, actually.

We have no direct indication of that.

More to the point, "outgun" doesn't have a lot to do with power and more to do with weapon counts.

"Have to?" No, but it is the common use of the term by definition. (Outgunned:1. to surpass in fire power)

With four torpedo tubes to Enterprise' two, Reliant does INDEED outgun the Enterprise even under ideal circumstances.

The proper term for this is "well armed' or "better armed"
Also to say that Reliant out gunned due to torpedo hardpoints becomes a failure of tactical analysis. Intrepid doesn't "Outgun" Defiant because she has more phaser arrays. It's vise versa. Defiant out guns...just about everything. This is term is usually about firepower. ships are limited to firing arcs. In a rear attack Reliant has no advantage on Enterprise at all. Enterprise still can still bring more weapons to bear on it's forward arc than Reliant can on it's rear arc. No tactial advantage for Reliant on it's rear arc with Enterprise chasing. On a Reliant chase Enterprise has advantage with no aft torpedoes and two aft phasers. Head to head Reliant has more forward firing weapons that Enterprise.

However now there is a context problem.
Neither ship employs it's full range of weapons at one time so under the "more weapons" context Spock's observation becomes irrelevant. Yet under the "More power" context his observation is given much weight as the reason for entering the Nebula. This is a set scene set up.

You said "Every time Reliant hits Enterprise it takes out main power." If Reliant's phasers had nothing to do with the loss of main power the SECOND time, then this is untrue.

I said "Every time Reliant hit Enterprise they lost main power." I'm implying the phasers might be responsible.

they're NOT going to be firing at 100% (or sometimes, at all) unless you've got a hell of a lot of power behind them.

You see I have no evidence for that conclusion.
To say that the batteries didn't have sufficient power for the phasers to fire at full implies that that the phasers could drain the batteries in a few shots. ...(That's pure conjecture) Nothing on screen showed us that Enterprise was going to critical power to the ship's functioning by firing the phasers. In fact we're told the limit is the number of shots and that could be a capacitor issue. In other words you have two shots now...if you want more that will take more time.

True, you STARTED with the conclusion that Reliant's rollbar phaser banks were initially more powerful than Enterprise' phaser banks, and this entire discussion has basically revolved around you trying to shoehorn visual and verbal evidence into that conclusion.


Is that still your starting assumption, or do you think maybe there's something else going on here?

It was certainly my first impression.
This discussion so far has served to clear my misconceptions of the battle. The big one is that Reliant DIDN'T use both bar phasers on the Enterprise in the initial attack. I was projecting the second round on the first round. It was a big error on my part and it shocked me that I had made it. Still that served as a stronger case for my claim that one phaser vs Enterprises two streams did all that damage.

The real change is that now I can see how the second phaser attack looks so much more weaker than the first now. It does indeed look as if Reliant is suffering from a loss of power in the nebula fight. How ever I need more. Splash isn't the same but there is explosions and flames in the torpedo room unlike we've seen anywhere else. It could mean(speculation) that the beams actually pierced the hull and far less heat was ablated by the hull. (Evidence) Even though Reliant never struck the tube itself it's definitely mangled from the front.

When exactly does Scotty say that?

Over his nephews body. (script)

Adequately explained by Reliant's heavier torpedo armament, four tubes to two.

You excused it. But it doesn't enjoy greater support of the evidence.

This has already been analyzed by blssdwlf and found NOT to be the case.

Firstly we haven't come to a consensus on what power the phasers were so his analysis is in sort of a moratorium since he took it upon himself to define the strikes by what he thought their power output was. If Reliant never lost main power then they weren't low power shots. So that's where the discussion is now.

Yes. And nothing substantiates the claim that Reliant's phaser banks under NORMAL circumstances would be more powerful than Enterprise' phaser banks under the same conditions.

The problem is if both ships had some sort of main power then the evidence at hand visually substaniates Enterprise as the weaker vessel. So does Spock's statements, and speculation that it was irrelevant commentary on hardpoints doesn't help the scene or the audience understanding. That makes it pure conjecture and not based on any evidence at all to forward as a reason for his statements.

The biggest reason for this is that we never do get to see what kind of damage ENTERPRISE would have done under identical conditions.

The question is:
Were both ships close to ideal power conditions? I have to say Yes.
Reliant appears to have main power, So does Enterprise even if just partial. Weapon to power ratio tells me there was more than enough power to fire the weapons at full. Nothing indicates any sort of power drain or deficiency. They simply don't show us in TWOK that a few shots of the phasers cost the ship in a significant fraction of total power. Without that how can we rightly say whether these phasers lacked any intensity at all? (Regardless of power source)

And there's still the fact that Reliant's phasers AREN'T being provided with full warp power at any time,

I will point out...
That's currently a disputed fact.
It's more like an assumption.

You have not provided a SHRED of evidence that they are.

A statement to a lack of information is not in itself isn't an assertion.

OTOH (on the other hand) the photon torpedo loading board does not include or require a power transfer from the warp drives.

Good point.

Phaser power being dependent on input power solidly falls into the category of "basics."

I was referring to the superficial basics of the form and purpose of that form. Bridge, Engines and Hulls in the same place.

Moreover, I think you're underestimating the amount of energy we're talking about for deflecting an object the size (and presumably the mass) of the moon. This is the sort of feat that even the Enterprise-D had trouble with more than a century later.

I know a large asteroid crashing into the Earth the size of Texas would produce a 200 Giga ton Blast (Extinction Level Event). A kilo ton is a 1,000 tons of TNT. A Mega ton is 1,000 x 1,000 A GIGATON is 1,000,000 tons of TNT x a 1,000. That's a BILLION tons of TNT just for an 800 mile wide ROID. Enterprise was trying to split through something with a radius of 2,100 miles wide. The suggestion that Enterprise has that kind of firepower is not just in-evident but ludicrous. I toss TOS explanations as a matter of rule just for this reason. And in this episode there are two of these sort of off beat understandings. The fire power issue and the speed issue.

It is IMPLIED that the phasers were still firing for quite a while after Scotty started crying about his poor bairns. Not that it matters much, because it still means that the phasers require (and are capable of drawing) the full power of the warp engines in order to produce their maximum destructive output. Otherwise, Enterprise could have fired at that asteroid from now until doomsday and never taxed the warp drives.

I have to concur and that's why it makes no sense at all.
I take exception to the idea that the main power plant of a starship can litterally be channled through (all at once) a pair of phasers. It's ridiculous. Not only that but it's in contradiction since the ship didn't actually lose any power from necessary systems (or none reported) It doesn't make sense so I don't try and make it make sense.

Or the complete lack of a verbal report, as in the case of the Enterprise.

So...Just the batteries" Isn't a verbal report?
Temporary loss of Auxilary power isn't a verbal report.
Main power in Six hours isn't a verbal report
Impulse power /Auxiarly power restored doesn't tell us it was damaged? I'm confused as to why you think this represents "a complete lack"

So what? There's no reason to assume that all the damage the ship sustained would even be visible on the model. When it comes to Star Trek, it usually isn't.

That ....would go to the point of...inconsistency yes.
Thus we don't know what to trust. The visual report or what we see on the ship.

Enterprise didn't hit the warp propulsion system (contained in the nacelles) so it must have hit the prime mover that powered it.

DID IT? I don't know.
Enterprise hit a component that has a direct link to that propulsion system.

... which means it was not available UNTIL Joachim restored it.

Negative: It means it was damaged and that's it.
Restoration:2. Return (someone or something) to a former condition, place, or position. The former condition was fully functional. It doesn't tell us that it was recovered from a completely inoperable condition. That would be a leap of reasoning

If they had the power, they'd be able to fire phasers at least. Otherwise "they've damaged the photon control and the warp drive!" doesn't work as an explanation.[/QUOTE]

That maybe the point of the scene.
But the terminology gets in the way. Drive instead of Power.
It's a problem grammatically. As a result I can't make a direct inference to without one there is no other....

(Once More)

We already have the example of Enterprise firing without Warp Power. You can't make conditions for one with the understanding that both ships have a similar design and structure of concept and have a different conclusion for the other. That just doesn't cut the logic barrier.

Heres the problem Mechanically with your reasoning:
It doesn't rule out that there are shared relays or systems or some sort of components that when that component is knocked out in a particular way the other is knocked out even with power available.

Context is important. Watch the movie. Scotty is looking right at the main power system. Only the main power system requires an Intermix setting. Auxiliary power does not.

Still the problem of what the Intermix is.
Not even Memory Alpha establishes solidly that it's a warp or impulse system.

Says the person who wants to ignore or discount TOS

It's a question of relevancy and proper expectation.
I mean I see the irony but I simply having a problem projecting the expectation of consistency between when the intent was not fully there.

Yeah, and he also said, "Restoration may be possible". Logically, Spock wasn't positive it would be restored. We know from the dialogue that only partial main power was restored.

The sentence wasn't complete after maybe.
He's referring maybe in this amount of time.

In the first battle, with Enterprise on battery power, she gets off 4 seconds of phaser fire.

I only see two shots.
Kirk says fire twice.
Where are the other two shots?

In the Mutara Nebula, Enterprise on battery power fires her phasers for <1 second and 2 photons. How is this helping your argument again?

Enterprise didn't even fire one torpedo against Reliant on battery power. That's a lack of logic on the part of the commander under your premise. If they could have fired two torps and do that damage then why did they chose the phasers? Your argument in favor of battery power has to be well thought out. Do we really want take the option as Kirk as an idiot to support the battery power claim?

We know the Enterprise can't move very fast on battery power, that's a given. But the Enterprise is quite capable of moving on battery power (albeit slowly) and that's consistent with the movie.

I cannot concur.
The Movie says "Enterprise isn't going anywhere"
Kirk only gives the order to rendevous with the station after impulse was restored.

I'll tell you though, this discussion has given me a greater appreciation for the production crew's thinking that went into the space battle.

I agree. For better or for worse they clearly had to work this out logistically. And it's really nice to see this amount of effort in one of the movies like you said...really gives me a greater appreciation for them taking the time. He really did look at this like a sub drama.

Before I didn't even catch that Enterprise had no propulsion. I just took Joachims word that Enterprise would still be there. Even when she wasn't...Then the whole game of playing up how damage Enterprise was when she wasn't....All to make Spock and Kirk look like the ultimate command team. Which gives a rather mirthful revelation as to why Spock refused to take command himself from Kirk. That's so awesome.

Physical damage tracks look too similar. Could Reliant be firing at full power in the initial attack? Nope, damage track looks just like later on when stuck at impulse power and when Enterprise fires at battery power.

That close up of Reliant's Deflector dish looks like someone painted the scaring on. It looked superfical. But they did a whole minature work on Enterprise and that hull look deformed and it was.

I'll be happy to go back and forth with you on this Saquist, even though I suspect we'll only agree to disagree in the end

It's likely.
If I see we become deadlocked on who had what power with out resolutions I'll call it quits but I've already had a few of my misconceptions dispelled which is why I don't mind the back and forth. You know just learning as much as I have has made this exchange extremely worth while and I love how amicable you've made this. I don't use emotion Icons because I'm very straight forward and people have suggested that I use them in order to help people relate better that my mood but I'm so even tempered and straightforward that I just hate using that stuff, sometimes it just doesn't quite convey what I'm feeling. (I'm usually feeling nothing)

But I have to thank you for proving that I really DON'T HAVE to do that. You never took anything I've said out of context or the wrong way and you never brought the egos in for a polishing and I appreciate that even more than what I've learned. It says to me that I can actually be genuine , that I don't have to placate people.

I can be my good ole dull and even mannered self.
(We can both decided we're deadlocked and end with both giving an official statement of their conclusions to top it all off.)

 

[blssdwlf]

@Gagarin, as far as the movie suggests, they never restored auxiliary power. When Kirk was on Regula 1, Spock's damage report indicated Main Power and Auxiliary power were down. Even though it was a "temporary failure", Spock wasn't confident that it was a sure thing to be repaired ("Restoration may be possible...").

Never: At no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever: Spock says temporarily.

Spock has said "temporarily", twice before:

"The Changeling"
SPOCK: Temporarily, Captain.

"The Lights of Zetar"
SPOCK: Some equipment was temporarily out of order.

In TWOK, Spock knows that auxiliary power can be repaired but was unsure of how long it would take. ("Restoration may be possible in two days [hours]") In this case, he was correct that it would not be restored in 2 hours as Scotty got some Main Power restored in 2 hours instead. I'm sure if they didn't have to run to the nebula and fight, Aux Power would've been next, IMHO

Then what difference does it make whether Reliant's phasers were more powerful or not? Even if they were in TWOK, they wouldn't be anywhere else, and by TVH they probably weren't even phasers anymore.

For me it sets the tier for the Miranda Class Starship and may justify somes perception that it was destroyer of sorts. Fando always seems to regard it as a lesser ship. I'm searching for the truth.

I may have a different opinion than Newtype_Alpha but I'll chime in anyways:

Overall, I'd say they're equivalent but have specific strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I'd put the Reliant as a Heavy Cruiser like the Enterprise.

The Reliant (or Miranda) is probably easier to build and more adoptable than the Constitutions. That flexibility lets it stay in service well into TNG.

The Reliant has 18 phasers to Enterprise's 18 phasers.
The Reliant has 2 more tubes (4 total) to Enterprise's 2 tubes.
The Enterprise has a very large long range sensor dish whereas Reliant does not.
The Enterprise has speed records that apparently haven't been broken yet by ST3:

STYLES: Turning in myself. Looking forward to breaking some of Enterprise's speed records tomorrow.
​

The Reliant looks alot more easy to modify. Add/remove the rollbars. Bolt on some modules (Bozeman), etc. The Constitutions doesn't look like you can or should modify it without a major redesign.

The question is:
Were both ships close to ideal power conditions? I have to say Yes.
Reliant appears to have main power, So does Enterprise even if just partial. Weapon to power ratio tells me there was more than enough power to fire the weapons at full. Nothing indicates any sort of power drain or deficiency. They simply don't show us in TWOK that a few shots of the phasers cost the ship in a significant fraction of total power. Without that how can we rightly say whether these phasers lacked any intensity at all? (Regardless of power source)

That's TNG thinking: Charge up the phasers and they'll deliver a fixed amount of power (max phaser power is a weapon system limit that is less than and independent of a ship's max power output)

TOS thinking is that max phaser output is the same as max ship output. Weapon system requires a minimum power to charge up and fire but can and will use all of a ship's power if you want "full power phasers". Ship's power available to weapons is dependent on what other systems are taking power as well. In some cases, the Enterprise's shields may take so much power due to a unrelenting attack that she cannot fire or move (like in "Return of the Archons").

From "A Taste of Armageddon":
SCOTT: We can't fire full phasers with our screens up, and We can't lower our screens with their disruptors on us.
Of course I could treat them to a few dozen photon torpedoes.

From "The Tholian Web":
SPOCK: Engineering, hold power steady and cut off all unnecessary expenditures. Mister Sulu, divert all but emergency maintenance power to the shields.
SULU: But sir, that'll reduce our phaser power by fifty percent.

and from TMP:
DECKER: Sir, the Enterprise redesign increases phaser power by channeling it through the main engines. When they went into anti-matter imbalance, the phasers were automatically cut off.

So what does this mean for the Reliant and Enterprise in TWOK? It might looks something like this in game or model form with some arbitrary numbers:

Reliant's initial attack

Main Power Output
M/AM Reactor (1000 energy units)
x Status (100%)
x Main Energizer (100%)
= 1000 energy units/sec available

Aux Power Output
Aux Reactors (100 energy units)
x Status (100%)
= 100 energy units/sec available

Battery Power Output
Batteries (10 energy units)
x Charge Status (100%)
= 10 energy units available

100 energy units to shields, 20 energy units to maneuvering, 4 energy units to photons. Since the damage track was marginally larger than Enterprise's battery powered phasers, I'd say they put 40-50 energy units into the port emitter phaser attack (repeated over 20-30s )
​

Enterprise when they fire back at Khan's ship with 4s of phaser power:

Main Power Output
M/AM Reactor (1000 energy units)
x Status (?%)
x Main Energizer (0%) due to damage
= 0 energy units/sec available

Aux Power Output
Aux Reactors (100 energy units)
x Status (0%) offline due to damage
= 0 energy units/sec available

Battery Power Output
Batteries (10 energy units)
x Charge Status (100%) Note: no longer recharging
= 10 energy units available

4-5 energy units were used up for 4s of phaser fire, <1 for life support, 1 to maneuver, rest held in reserve.
​

Enterprise when they are making a run to the nebula:

Main Power Output
M/AM Reactor (1000 energy units)
x Status (?%)
x Main Energizer (8%) after some bypassing
= 80 energy units/sec available

Aux Power Output
Aux Reactors (100 energy units)
x Status (0%) offline due to damage
= 0 energy units/sec available

Battery Power Output
Batteries (10 energy units)
x Charge Status (100%)
= 10 energy units available
​

Reliant when they are chasing Enterprise into the nebula:

Main Power Output
M/AM Reactor (1000 energy units)
x Main Energizer (?%) unknown damage status
x Status (0%) due to damage never stated to be repaired
= 0 energy units/sec available

Aux Power Output
Aux Reactors (100 energy units)
x Status (99%) just repaired
= 99 energy units/sec available

Battery Power Output
Batteries (10 energy units)
x Charge Status (100%)
= 10 energy units available

When the Reliant hits the torpedo bay of the Enterprise when they are in the nebula, I'd guess 30-40 energy units went into each forward rollbar emitter for a total of 60-80 energy units with the remainder to maneuvering, torpedo bay, etc.

Enterprise likely used up most of her energy allocation on the emergency turn to starboard, leaving less energy available for her port side phaser return fire.

​

Enterprise after Scotty takes the Mains offline in the nebula:

Main Power Output
M/AM Reactor (1000 energy units)
x Status (?%)
x Main Energizer (0%) due to damage
= 0 energy units/sec available

Aux Power Output
Aux Reactors (100 energy units)
x Status (0%) offline due to damage
= 0 energy units/sec available

Battery Power Output
Batteries (10 energy units)
x Charge Status (100%) Note: no longer charging again
= 10 energy units available

They consume 1-2 energy units for 1s of phaser fire, <1 for life support, 1 to maneuver, 1-2 energy units for photons.
​

Enterprise was trying to split through something with a radius of 2,100 miles wide. The suggestion that Enterprise has that kind of firepower is not just in-evident but ludicrous. I toss TOS explanations as a matter of rule just for this reason. And in this episode there are two of these sort of off beat understandings. The fire power issue and the speed issue.

And that is why you won't make sense of TWOK. If you cannot envision the Reliant vaporizing the Enterprise with "full power" phasers, you're not likely to accept that they were on any other power setting less than full.

Something for the math heads:

SULU: Not enough, Mister Spock. It's only point zero zero one three degrees.

How much power would it take to deflect the equivalent of Earth's moon moving at .015c, 0.0013 degrees by pushing it for ~8s from the side?

I have to concur and that's why it makes no sense at all.
I take exception to the idea that the main power plant of a starship can litterally be channled through (all at once) a pair of phasers. It's ridiculous. Not only that but it's in contradiction since the ship didn't actually lose any power from necessary systems (or none reported) It doesn't make sense so I don't try and make it make sense.

What other systems should lose power? All Spock needed was all main power on phasers. Impulse/Aux+Batteries would power the rest of the ship's systems.

Still the problem of what the Intermix is.
Not even Memory Alpha establishes solidly that it's a warp or impulse system.

I have not found Memory Alpha to be very accurate regarding TOS. Your best bet is to go research it yourself. Watch some episodes, preferrably the original FX ones as the new FX from the TNG folks puts in a few TNG twists and doesn't always follow the dialogue

Intermix in TOS is used specifically for the main power system:

SPOCK: Jim, there is an intermix formula.
SPOCK: It's never been tested. It's a theoretical relationship between time and antimatter.

I only see two shots.
Kirk says fire twice.
Where are the other two shots?

? The first "Fire" lasted 3 seconds. The second "Fire", 1s.

Enterprise didn't even fire one torpedo against Reliant on battery power. That's a lack of logic on the part of the commander under your premise. If they could have fired two torps and do that damage then why did they chose the phasers?

Let's think about that idea. The Enterprise, for whatever reason (it's a training vessel, perhaps?) requires a torpedo crew of about 10 persons:
1. to remove the grates that block the torpedo loading path
2. operate the vertical torpedo loading arm
3. man the two torpedo consoles at the front of the torpedo bay

For a fully-manned torpedo crew, it took about 25-30s to do the above to load the 1st torpedo when they were racing to the nebula.

Now, let's backtrack to Khan's first attack. Was the torpedo bay manned prior to Khan's first attack? Probably not since Kirk never called Battle Stations prior to the attack. Did anyone ever make it down to the torpedo bay as the attack was underway? Probably not since the grates were still in place when they were racing to the nebula.

And then we must ask if there was any power getting to the torpedo bay to even power the torpedo loading arm...

So the use of photons to shoot back at Khan in the initial attack apparently was not an option, IMHO.

I cannot concur.
The Movie says "Enterprise isn't going anywhere"
Kirk only gives the order to rendevous with the station after impulse was restored.

Like I said, battery power will move the ship, just not very fast. And by fast I mean not fast enough to break orbit ("The Naked Time", "Mudd's Women"). That's also why she wasn't getting very far from the Reliant at the end trying to escape the blast radius.

In Joachim's context, he's right.

That close up of Reliant's Deflector dish looks like someone painted the scaring on. It looked superfical. But they did a whole minature work on Enterprise and that hull look deformed and it was.

The first 1/2-2/3 of the damage track had deformed/perforated the hull like Reliant's phaser attacks. The last 1/3 leading to the crystal dome is "painted on" from what I can tell.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Then what difference does it make whether Reliant's phasers were more powerful or not? Even if they were in TWOK, they wouldn't be anywhere else, and by TVH they probably weren't even phasers anymore.

For me it sets the tier for the Miranda Class Starship and may justify somes perception that it was destroyer of sorts. Fando always seems to regard it as a lesser ship. I'm searching for the truth.

You're searching for something to vindicate the Miranda as a lesser starship, which is illogical. It is also self defeating since "lesser" depends entirely on context, and that starships are not defined purely (or even primarily) by their combatant role. Thus even if Reliant's phasers were more powerful, she could STILL be the lesser starship in 90% of her mission roles.

In searching for the truth, this much is known of Reliant: she has (volumetrically) a larger torpedo pod and one additional shuttle bay door. She has a larger engineering section at the expense of a smaller saucer section. She has no large navigational deflector, though if you go by designer intent she has two small ones in the rollbar. She has underside features that appear to be retro ports for the impulse engines.

Based on this, I would consider Reliant to be a slightly lighter vessel in the same general class. Heavy on guns, but light on shielding. That would make Enterprise more optimized for the exploration role (equivalent to an armed icebreaker, for example) with Reliant optimized for logistics support and patrol missions deep in Federation space. In which case, that fits nicely to explain why the Mirandas and their cousins are still in service a hundred years later and the Constitutions have all been replaced by the more powerful Excelsiors.

Concur.
The problem is this is the actual charge indicator not the red squares which only tell us warp power transfer supply. It's like on dial is the valve and the other is the regulator.

If phasers draw electrical power, it's a bit like having the voltage turned all the way up and the amperage turned all the way down. There are lots of reasons to have high voltage, depending on the effects you're going for, but POWER is a function of voltage AND current.

My science teacher used to tell us (and Taser International later proved) that you could kill a man with a nine volt battery, it's just a question of current. In that sense, I've suspected for a long time that a starship's phaser bank could be used as an extremely effective anti-personnel weapon, channeling full warp power into a blast that kills everyone in the effected area without damaging the buildings or the vehicles at all (which Kirk sort of implies in "A piece of the action," when he says "No, they're not dead. But they could just as well have been that way if we wanted em"). In the opposite end, a phaser beam at maximum disruptor setting at full warp power could be used to glass the city with a satisfying mushroom cloud. Of course, tuning a phaser to stun humanoids without causing any real damage is more complicated than "How many red lights should be on right now?" which is why you need to talk to Scotty about that sort of thing.

To the current situation: Reliant's attack would be "high voltage, low current," in other words a phaser at its maximum disruptor setting but just enough power to cause physical damage without sawing the Enterprise in half.

At what point did a day pass?

Between Reliant's attack and the arrival at Regula-1 could not have been less than twelve hours. We know this because Enterprise was twelve hours away from Regula-1 at WARP FIVE when Reliant intercepted them.

If the impulse engines are not as fast as the warp engines (and we know that they are not) then it should have taken Enterprise at least twice as long to cover that remaining distance. Reliant's impulse engines, on the other hand, were not restored until AFTER Enterprise arrived at Regula-1.

In this case the status quo is that the mains were on-line. Untill we see evidence to the contrary visually or a verbal report or the effective use of some device that necessitate main power or vise versa then the proper conclusion is the mains were on-line through precedent of status quo.

The status quo is the default circumstances where no other changes have occurred. Reliant suffered damage to her warp drive AND her impulse engines, so we cannot conclude that the first system was restored at the same time as the latter.

Loss of warp drive means loss of main power 99% of the time in Star Trek; that, also, is the status quo.

He knows. "There she is, and not so wounded as we were lead to believe" and this is before Joachims objections to chasing Enterprise

He knows she can maneuver, as evidenced by the fact that she is actually moving and under power. That, to Khan, is a HUGE difference from a ship that should be dead in space for another two days at least.

We have no direct indication of that.

Yes we do. Joachim lists "photon control" and "warp drive." That covers photon torpedoes and phasers, respectively.

"Have to?" No, but it is the common use of the term by definition. (Outgunned:1. to surpass in fire power)

Which, again, is adequately explained by the torpedo armaments.

The proper term for this is "well armed' or "better armed"

If you're going to be that pedantic about it, then the term "outgunned" doesn't apply either since Reliant is not equipped with guns.

Also to say that Reliant out gunned due to torpedo hardpoints becomes a failure of tactical analysis. Intrepid doesn't "Outgun" Defiant because she has more phaser arrays. It's vise versa. Defiant out guns...just about everything.

Interestingly, Defiant has never been said to "outgun" anything. It HAS been called "One of the most heavily armed warships in the quadrant" a few times.

This is term is usually about firepower. ships are limited to firing arcs. In a rear attack Reliant has no advantage on Enterprise at all.

Except for having two rear-facing photon torpedo tubes to Enterprise' none. That is an adequate increase in firepower to explain Spock's comment.

I said "Every time Reliant hit Enterprise they lost main power." I'm implying the phasers might be responsible.

And they weren't. SCOTTY was responsible the second time, not the phasers.

You see I have no evidence for that conclusion.

You have been provided with a mountain of evidence for it. At this point there's nothing more we can add that you will not happily ignore just to defend Reliant's reputation.

To say that the batteries didn't have sufficient power for the phasers to fire at full implies that that the phasers could drain the batteries in a few shots. ...(That's pure conjecture)

It's not conjecture at all. Scotty flat out TELLS him that he can only provide "a few shots" for the phasers from battery power. Kirk didn't ask him "How much phaser power would it take to drain the emergency cells and leave us totally in the dark?" he asked "Can you give me phaser power?" Presumably Scotty's smart enough to know exactly how much he can safely draw from the batteries without putting the lights out.

That the phasers were not firing at maximum output is also NOT conjecture, it is an inescapable consequence of the phasers drawing warp power. To suggest otherwise would completely negate the purpose of warp power transfer in the first place.

It was certainly my first impression.

"Impressions" do not constitute evidence for a conclusion.

Over his nephews body. (script)

It isn't in the film, not even in the deleted scenes from the director's cut.

The problem is if both ships had some sort of main power then the evidence at hand visually substaniates Enterprise as the weaker vessel.

How? Their tit-for-tat in the first pass gives Enterprise with a larger splash damage against the bridge, and Enterprise' shorter contact at a glancing angle does significant damage there.

You also continue to dance around Enterprise BLOWING THE LIVING CRAP out of Reliant in the final exchange, which doesn't do much for the ship's reputation either.

The question is:
Were both ships close to ideal power conditions? I have to say Yes.
Reliant appears to have main power, So does Enterprise even if just partial. Weapon to power ratio tells me there was more than enough power to fire the weapons at full.

How does "weapon to power ratio" tell me that since their relative power levels are never explicitly stated?

They simply don't show us in TWOK that a few shots of the phasers cost the ship in a significant fraction of total power.

Then you need to provide an alternate explanation OTHER than the most obvious one for why Reliant was unable to fire phasers after Kirk's counter attack.

I will point out...
That's currently a disputed fact.
It's more like an assumption.

It's an extremely safe assumption. We have dialog suggesting her warp drive was damaged, and NONE saying it was restored. So on WHAT do you base the statement "Reliant had warp drive in the mutara nebula?"

I was referring to the superficial basics of the form and purpose of that form. Bridge, Engines and Hulls in the same place.

Unless the Enterprise replaced all of its phaser banks with Cardassian Galor-class disruptor cannons, the basics of weapon technology still very much apply from TOS.

I know a large asteroid crashing into the Earth the size of Texas would produce a 200 Giga ton Blast

And I know that an asteroid the size of Manhattan would cause an identical blast if it hit the Earth at a higher speed. That's a function of kinetic energy and mass, which has little or nothing to do with the kind of power it would take to deflect and/or split an asteroid the size of the moon.

As a matter of FORCE, in order to accelerate an object with a mass of, say, 1,000 billion tons at a speed of 1m/s you would have to impart a force on that mass of 1,000 giganewtons, which is a unit of force equivalent to about 239 megatons per second. That for the NAVIGATIONAL DEFLECTOR, which is supposed to be capable of pushing celestial objects out of the ship's way at warp speed; it BETTER be that powerful or they're pretty screwed.

I have to concur and that's why it makes no sense at all.
I take exception to the idea that the main power plant of a starship can litterally be channled through (all at once) a pair of phasers. It's ridiculous. Not only that but it's in contradiction since the ship didn't actually lose any power from necessary systems (or none reported)

That's a silly thing to expect to begin with. Every REAL spacecraft ever built includes a pre-determined power budget for its primary systems, allowable loads and voltages. Those systems are not allowed to exceed those loads unless somebody manually overrides the power management system either by opening competing circuits or rigging the system directly.

This is equally true of starships. It is the reason why no system on the ship, no matter how important, ever draws power away from other systems unless somebody intentionally tells it to (i.e. "Divert auxiliary power to deflectors!" or "transfer power from life support if you have to, just keep those shields up!"). Galaxy class starships apparently have so much extra power lying around that they don't even shut off the holodecks except in extremely dire emergencies.

That ....would go to the point of...inconsistency yes.
Thus we don't know what to trust. The visual report or what we see on the ship.

When it comes to Trek, always trust dialog before you trust the visuals (if you trust the visuals AT ALL).

Negative: It means it was damaged and that's it.
Restoration:2. Return (someone or something) to a former condition, place, or position. The former condition was fully functional.

And inserting the "fully" into that condition is dishonest of you, and you know it. Otherwise Joachim would have said "Fully restored," differentiating between a previous condition (partially operational) and the new one (fully operational).

In any case, the words "restore" and "restoration" occur multiple times in the movie, ALWAYS describing a return to an operable condition from an inoperable one.

That maybe the point of the scene.
But the terminology gets in the way. Drive instead of Power.
It's a problem grammatically.

Power comes from the warp drive, so the two can be (and often are) used interchangeably. Suffice to say, Khan knew what Joachim was talking about because he didn't immediately reply "Then switch to phasers, dammit!"

We already have the example of Enterprise firing without Warp Power. You can't make conditions for one with the understanding that both ships have a similar design and structure of concept and have a different conclusion for the other.

Why not? Joachim did, otherwise he would have immediately asked himself "How could Enterprise be firing on us with their power systems down?" and then started to wonder if the ship's backup/auxiliary power could be transferred to the phaser banks somehow.

If Reliant had an experienced engineer on board, that would have taken a couple of minutes, even assuming they knew it was possible. But intelligent as they are, Khan's crew don't know a whole lot about starships and the vagaries about their power systems; their immediate assumption is "We've lost warp power, so there's nothing to feed the phasers. Better run for it."

Heres the problem Mechanically with your reasoning:[/B]
It doesn't rule out that there are shared relays or systems or some sort of components that when that component is knocked out in a particular way the other is knocked out even with power available.

I don't ALLOW for it either, since that is a hypothetical explanation with no supporting evidence.

I cannot concur.
The Movie says "Enterprise isn't going anywhere"

And technically, he's wrong. Enterprise restored impulse power less than an hour later. Theroetically they could have left the system and run for help and the gimping Reliant would have never caught up to her before her warp engines were repaired.

 

[Saquist]

In TWOK, Spock knows that auxiliary power can be repaired but was unsure of how long it would take. ("Restoration may be possible in two days [hours]") In this case, he was correct that it would not be restored in 2 hours as Scotty got some Main Power restored in 2 hours instead. I'm sure if they didn't have to run to the nebula and fight, Aux Power would've been next, IMHO

I'm recognizing an irresolvable deadlock on this issue.

I may have a different opinion than Newtype_Alpha but I'll chime in anyways:

Overall, I'd say they're equivalent but have specific strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I'd put the Reliant as a Heavy Cruiser like the Enterprise.

While all Federation ships are cruisers because none of them are in fleets, the heavy cruiser designation is based displacemet. Reliant has less volume than Enterprise. Under the Cruiser role it would better fit a medium designation. In fleet role Desteroyer seems best. It's batter armed than Enterprise ( only count 16 phaser 4 tubes) Enterprise's 18 and 2 tubes. Enterprise is called Battle Cruiser by the Klingons imply they considered her heavly armored. (or shielded)

TOS thinking is that max phaser output is the same as max ship output. Weapon system requires a minimum power to charge up and fire but can and will use all of a ship's power if you want "full power phasers". Ship's power available to weapons is dependent on what other systems are taking power as well. In some cases, the Enterprise's shields may take so much power due to a unrelenting attack that she cannot fire or move (like in "Return of the Archons").

You certainly have the evdence to support it.
However I find no reason to see it as revelevant in TWOK.
I think this is another deadlock.

Intermix in TOS is used specifically for the main power system:

SPOCK: Jim, there is an intermix formula.
SPOCK: It's never been tested. It's a theoretical relationship between time and antimatter.

Then it represents a schism between TMP and TOS.
The script says the intermx chamber is not for tme and anitmatter but for matter and antimatter.

Here in Engineering Section, the ENGINE THROBBING
SLOWLY BUILDS to a THUNDERING SOUND. A glow from
the central unit indicates anti-matter intermix
underway. The Engineering Section shudders as the
great engines draw more and more power.

Let's think about that idea. The Enterprise, for whatever reason (it's a training vessel, perhaps?) requires a torpedo crew of about 10 persons:
1. to remove the grates that block the torpedo loading path
2. operate the vertical torpedo loading arm
3. man the two torpedo consoles at the front of the torpedo bay

For a fully-manned torpedo crew, it took about 25-30s to do the above to load the 1st torpedo when they were racing to the nebula.

Now, let's backtrack to Khan's first attack. Was the torpedo bay manned prior to Khan's first attack? Probably not since Kirk never called Battle Stations prior to the attack. Did anyone ever make it down to the torpedo bay as the attack was underway? Probably not since the grates were still in place when they were racing to the nebula.

And then we must ask if there was any power getting to the torpedo bay to even power the torpedo loading arm...

So the use of photons to shoot back at Khan in the initial attack apparently was not an option, IMHO.

Sorry man. You know what I'm going to say...
It's a wonderful explanation and you're right we definitely don't see the grating lifted, for this scene but they are at red alert. We see the sign in the background. None of the shots impacted the dorsal neck and thus no reason why the crew couldn't get to the torpedo tubes. The damage report doesn't tell us of any deep internal damage and even though we know the lifts are indeed inoperable below C Deck there is exactly 2 movie minutes to pass between just the first strike and the report of the order to surrender. The whole purpose of Kirk discussing surrender was to BUY TIME in the first place. 5 minutes pass from that time then to Enterprise firing. They HAD time.

It fits your entire theory...but is conjecture and what we know doesn't fit to allow it.

The first 1/2-2/3 of the damage track had deformed/perforated the hull like Reliant's phaser attacks. The last 1/3 leading to the crystal dome is "painted on" from what I can tell.

It certainly looks very un-deformed
Infact. There is implication that the marker like scaring is from the second firing as a certain portion (last end) becomes visible afterward (slowmotion)

The damage is completely gone when the camera passes through Reliant's Rollbar.

You're searching for something to vindicate the Miranda as a lesser starship, which is illogical.

Not only is it NOT what I'm searching for, there is also no fallacy present between substantiation of perception and the search itself. In fact that comment doesn't appear to make sense.

It is also self defeating since "lesser" depends entirely on context, and that starships are not defined purely (or even primarily) by their combatant role. Thus even if Reliant's phasers were more powerful, she could STILL be the lesser starship in 90% of her mission roles.

What does that mean?
A context doesn't define victory or defeat.
Reliant mission abilities are irrelevant to it's combat abilites.

She has a larger engineering section at the expense of a smaller saucer section.

Conjecture:
We don't know what percentage of Reliant's hull is for engineering.

Between Reliant's attack and the arrival at Regula-1 could not have been less than twelve hours. We know this because Enterprise was twelve hours away from Regula-1 at WARP FIVE when Reliant intercepted them.

If the impulse engines are not as fast as the warp engines (and we know that they are not) then it should have taken Enterprise at least twice as long to cover that remaining distance. Reliant's impulse engines, on the other hand, were not restored until AFTER Enterprise arrived at Regula-1.

Very Good.
But I have bad new for you...
You've found a schism in the movie. If Enterprise is 12 hours out then reliant should not have returned to the station to find Enterprise instead they should have been out in deep space. FURTHER IF WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE...(notice the cap) then Reliant COULD NOT have made it to Regula since you believe Reliant didn't restore impulse until after Enterprise.

NEWTYPE_APHA SAID

Enterprise' phaser attack put Reliant's impulse engines out of operation for almost a day;

You-have-not-thought-this-out.
Or you're not saying what you mean.

The status quo is the default circumstances where no other changes have occurred. Reliant suffered damage to her warp drive AND her impulse engines, so we cannot conclude that the first system was restored at the same time as the latter.

The default is Reliant's main-power are operating untill such time as it's logically supported as inoperable or reported failed. We have no such evidence to conclude the warp drive and mains are always interchangeable.

Loss of warp drive means loss of main power 99% of the time in Star Trek; that, also, is the status quo.

Fallacy:
That is not a status quo (a condition)
It is a statistic.

He knows she can maneuver, as evidenced by the fact that she is actually moving and under power. That, to Khan, is a HUGE difference from a ship that should be dead in space for another two days at least.

Perceptional: conveniently perceptional
So I'll consider the contention conceeded. There is no defined upper limit as to how much he understands the deception. The fact of comprehension of the deception remains.

Yes we do. Joachim lists "photon control" and "warp drive." That covers photon torpedoes and phasers, respectively.

That is indirect and not a logical inference.

Which, again, is adequately explained by the torpedo armaments.

Repetition is not reasoning. It's an excuse, no direct support.
The definition represents the status quo. (default)
You need some other standard other than your own to justify youy position.

If you're going to be that pedantic about it, then the term "outgunned" doesn't apply either since Reliant is not equipped with guns.

Even a metaphor must be relevant by a standard.

Interestingly, Defiant has never been said to "outgun" anything. It HAS been called "One of the most heavily armed warships in the quadrant" a few times.

This is a false contradiction.
I mentioned nothing of what had been said.

Except for having two rear-facing photon torpedo tubes to Enterprise' none. That is an adequate increase in firepower to explain Spock's comment.

Firepower yes but not outgunned.

And they weren't. SCOTTY was responsible the second time, not the phasers.

We don't know that. There could be a casual relationship.

In the script:

Admiral, I've got to take the mains
off the line. The energizer's shaken
loose and I can't get in there to
fix her -- radiation --

...and this is after their encounter and Enterprise definitely go shaken by Reliant's phaser hits.

You have been provided with a mountain of evidence for it. At this point there's nothing more we can add that you will not happily ignore just to defend Reliant's reputation.

Circumstantial evidence which is all based on the assumption (not the evident proof) I can not be held responsible for your inability to provide concrete evidence.

At best we can only surmise Reliant's full power shot in the opening battle is more powerful than Enterprises Partial Main Power shot...considerably.

It's not conjecture at all. Scotty flat out TELLS him that he can only provide "a few shots" for the phasers from battery power.

Pure Conjecture:
You have supported the Assumption that the phasers are capable of channeling All THE POWER FROM THE MAINS. "Thus a few shots" means this is ALL Enterprise can do battery power... YET ENTERPRISE does far more on your supposed support of Blssdwlf's assertion that Enterprise was on battery power later in stead of impulse. The theory is full of holes so far and you want me to accept it. Not going to happen.

Kirk didn't ask him "How much phaser power would it take to drain the emergency cells and leave us totally in the dark?" he asked "Can you give me phaser power?" Presumably Scotty's smart enough to know exactly how much he can safely draw from the batteries without putting the lights out.

YET THEY FIRE MORE AT THE END.
Follow your reasonings to their logical conclusion not merely the conclusions you wish to see.

That the phasers were not firing at maximum output is also NOT conjecture, it is an inescapable consequence of the phasers drawing warp power. To suggest otherwise would completely negate the purpose of warp power transfer in the first place.

OF COURSE it's not conjecture!
Spock says "not enough against their shields"

"Impressions" do not constitute evidence for a conclusion.

Strawman:
No assertion was ever created concerning impressions as evidence.

It isn't in the film, not even in the deleted scenes from the director's cut.

Understood, but it is admissible.
But not particularly relevant anyway.
(given for contrast)

How? Their tit-for-tat in the first pass gives Enterprise with a larger splash damage against the bridge, and Enterprise' shorter contact at a glancing angle does significant damage there.

Not true.
Enterprises splash s slightly smaller compared to Reliant's (camera:distant shot) than Enterprise's. The results are WAY Different. Reliant caused a massive fire in the port tube and Enterprise caused some minor explosions and some falling debris.

You also continue to dance around Enterprise BLOWING THE LIVING CRAP out of Reliant in the final exchange, which doesn't do much for the ship's reputation either.

Dance around what?
The phasers hit a nacelle full of plasma.
The numerous secondary explosions are evidence of this.
Don't waste time with the obvious ...please.

How does "weapon to power ratio" tell me that since their relative power levels are never explicitly stated?

True:
However weapons that can take all the power from a source are not considered mainstays and thus can not be standard armament but rather a super weapon. Enterprise has 18 phasers which all presumably can channel that power from the engines. Ships are designed for multiple arcs for the purpose of simultaneous defense/offense.

Thus the ratio would be (18 to -16) (phaser to power) And that doesn't make any sense at all. It makes more sense for TOS since she only had only one set of phasers. so the ratio is (1 to 1) or (2 to 2)

Then you need to provide an alternate explanation OTHER than the most obvious one for why Reliant was unable to fire phasers after Kirk's counter attack.

There is no "explaining" there is only evidence and fact.
Explaining would rely only on conjecture.
Lack of explanation does not constitute a negation of those possibilities. But you have not narrowed down the possibilities to ONE as you believe, you're merely seizing the obvious possibilities, yet you act as if you've eliminated EVERY OTHER POSSIBILITIES....no, sir you have not.

It's an extremely safe assumption. We have dialog suggesting her warp drive was damaged, and NONE saying it was restored. So on WHAT do you base the statement "Reliant had warp drive in the mutara nebula?"

No assumption is safe.
You cannot logically determine that DAMAGE means DISABLED POWER SYSTEM. If this is all the Intel you got on an enemy ship's status and ASSUMED he was ripe for the picking you'd be a fool of massive proportions to proceed with an attack. The only thing you can conclude LOGICALLY is that the phaser part of the warp drive was damaged to failure.

And I know that an asteroid the size of Manhattan would cause an identical blast if it hit the Earth at a higher speed.

The Projection is based on a range of solar orbital speeds. Higher velocities are considered unlikely, they use this range to project the possible destructive force of all NEO's.

That's a silly thing to expect to begin with. Every REAL spacecraft ever built includes a pre-determined power budget for its primary systems, allowable loads and voltages. Those systems are not allowed to exceed those loads unless somebody manually overrides the power management system either by opening competing circuits or rigging the system directly.

This is equally true of starships. It is the reason why no system on the ship, no matter how important, ever draws power away from other systems unless somebody intentionally tells it to (i.e. "Divert auxiliary power to deflectors!" or "transfer power from life support if you have to, just keep those shields up!"). Galaxy class starships apparently have so much extra power lying around that they don't even shut off the holodecks except in extremely dire emergencies.

This is irrelevant.
On the one hand we have have with hulls
On the other hand we have ships with phasers
Those ships generate a certain amount of power.
Reliant's phaser did not reduce Enterprise to slag.
The intent to avoid destruction is evident n the single phaser shot. (Point of the scene) rather than seeing a person reduce the power to the phasers)

And inserting the "fully" into that condition is dishonest of you, and you know it. Otherwise Joachim would have said "Fully restored," differentiating between a previous condition (partially operational) and the new one (fully operational).

(sigh)
Yes, throw me to the wolves for assuming full impulse means a full restoration...

In any case, the words "restore" and "restoration" occur multiple times in the movie, ALWAYS describing a return to an operable condition from an inoperable one.

ASSUMPTIONS EVERYWHERE!
Do you not understand that I'm not making allowance for any assumptions? My word....the density level is considerable . Really... is that what I've been doing this whole time is fighting your assumptions? It feels like it. Since when does an assumption form any part of a logical conclusion. Please show me this edict. Where is the datum for this revelation?

Why not?

Status quo. You assumed the designs were similar.

Joachim did,

A scenario built by assumption is not a proper rebuttal for a direct contradiction. And you're contradicting yourself because you're locked in a loop of assumptions.

I don't ALLOW for it either,

Either? You're sitting here telling me that the power is off just due to damage. You're not allowing for anything but the conclusion that the power was off.

But the option is off OR on.
Which it never says the power is off. Where is EITHER in your argument? You've lost the either. You can't find either. Otherwise you really could recognize that there is two options instead of one. That's what you need for either. TWO. Not One....TWO...NOT one....You're allowing for just one. So there is no either in your argument. You can't use the word either because you have yet to recognize the other...

since that is a hypothetical explanation with no supporting evidence.

Of course it's hypotectical. There is no evidence EITHER way to conclude that the power was off or on thus the use of STATUS QUO defining the last known condition of the power source...which is ON. It's so simple a cave man could do it....

And technically, he's wrong. Enterprise restored impulse power less than an hour later.

Technically you're wrong too.
They restored impulse power minutes after the exchange.

Your whole theory here is kinda wacky considering even at warp 2 and One Lightyear away the ETA would be 36 days. There is simply no way Reliant or Enterprise could travel a distance covered by warp speed in 12 hours on impulse in anything under several months. At warp 2 Enterprise would cover 12 lighthours in just 4 seconds. And lightspeed is the best she can do in that condition. There is a huge gap in your understanding of certain things going on here. It's like you're missing the big picture...literally the movie. You're so busy trying to substantiate things through TOS and how you're think it should be you're not recognizing how impossible it is to resolve based on a column of assumptions.

The assumptions aren't even the worse part.
This post was caulk FULL of strawman fallacies. Purposeful missunderstandings of my assertions or comments drawing out these replies to a simply nauseating length just to combat the obvious. I cannot and will not expend this much time. No mutual understanding is remotely possible here. I will allow you to have the last words. Sadly I can offer you no further rejoinder on this topic.

 

[blssdwlf]

While all Federation ships are cruisers because none of them are in fleets, the heavy cruiser designation is based displacemet. Reliant has less volume than Enterprise.

7-9% difference in volume is not enough to say either way there would be a change in designation, IMHO.

Then it represents a schism between TMP and TOS.
The script says the intermx chamber is not for tme and anitmatter but for matter and antimatter.

Recap for you: Spock was specifically mentioning an intermix formula that would allow them to mix the matter and antimatter at a colder temperature and faster timing thought possible since they had to do an emergency restart which normally required at a minimum 22 minutes. Spock's intermix formula was able to do it in less than 3 minutes. The implosion also caused them to rocket back in time for a few days. Thus, time and antimatter. Under normal conditions intermix is for mixing matter and antimatter.

Sorry man. You know what I'm going to say...
It's a wonderful explanation and you're right we definitely don't see the grating lifted, for this scene but they are at red alert.

They went to red alert 12 seconds after Khan begins to fire phasers. The Enterprise is NOT under Red Alert until after the attack.

We see the sign in the background. None of the shots impacted the dorsal neck and thus no reason why the crew couldn't get to the torpedo tubes. The damage report doesn't tell us of any deep internal damage

The crew of the Enterprise happens to also be a majority of trainees or as Kirk put it, "a boatload of children." And during the surprise attack, few stayed at their stations while the rest of the "trainees ran." You could argue that a non-trainee ship could get crew down there to the torpedo bay, but I'd argue that even with 4 1/2 minutes it'd be a miracle for a trainee torpedo crew to get down there and get the power going to start moving torpedoes to ready for launch. (Just look at the poor trainee sitting at the bridge weapon console ) And that's assuming they were still getting power since that was a critical problem at the time.

The damage report tells us also that the Enterprise only had batteries left to fight with.

It fits your entire theory...but is conjecture and what we know doesn't fit to allow it.

What we know certainly allows it. You're just choosing to not allow it for yourself to fit your argument

It certainly looks very un-deformed
Infact. There is implication that the marker like scaring is from the second firing as a certain portion (last end) becomes visible afterward (slowmotion)

The first 1/2-2/3 shows the same amount of edge/light reflection that is consistent with deformation. The latter 1/3 you can see it's flat and painted on. This deformation edge is consistent with Reliant's torpedo bay and secondary hull hits to the Enterprise.

However weapons that can take all the power from a source are not considered mainstays and thus can not be standard armament but rather a super weapon.

Isn't that an assumption?

Enterprise has 18 phasers which all presumably can channel that power from the engines. Ships are designed for multiple arcs for the purpose of simultaneous defense/offense.

Thus the ratio would be (18 to -16) (phaser to power) And that doesn't make any sense at all. It makes more sense for TOS since she only had only one set of phasers. so the ratio is (1 to 1) or (2 to 2)

In TOS, the Enterprise has identified via dialogue that she has Forward, Port, Starboard, Midships and Aft phasers. At a minimum, that's 5 (one for each arc). If you double up to the dual phaser configuration that the forwards have, then that's 10. If you want to also say it's the same configuration that the refit has, then that's 18.

ASSUMPTIONS EVERYWHERE!
Do you not understand that I'm not making allowance for any assumptions?

Look, we're all making assumptions here. You, me, Newtype. You're assuming Reliant fired on full power in the initial strike. Then you're making assumptions on how Reliant's phaser system should work and what limitations it has. I'm making assumptions how Reliant's phasers should work based on TOS and TMP precedent. I'm also making assumption on the level of damage inflicted upon each ship, just as you are. If you think your assumption is correct, prove it with evidence.

Even if you completely discount all of TOS, you're still stuck with the inserts of low phaser power transfer to Reliant's phasers in the initial attack and low photon torpedo settings for the Enterprise in the nebula battle. And all the battle damage and power loss. No matter how you cut it, there is no way you can argue that Reliant has more powerful phasers than the Enterprise since we never get to see them both fully-powered up slugging it out.

Regarding the flight times from Khan's surprise attack on the Enterprise. Let's see what we have:

- Enterprise is "12 hours and 43 minutes, present speed" away from Regula 1 when Kirk calls for a meeting in his cabin/office.
- Enterprise's last known speed was Warp 5.
- Some time later, McCoy shows up in the Kirk's cabin/office after getting the sick bay ready. I know the film cut it a certain way, but they left in time in the dialogue. So subtract X time from 12h 43m.
- After the briefing, Enterprise detects the Reliant closing fast on them. Subtract Y time from initial detection to close to point-blank range where they slow to impulse and time for Kirk and buddies to travel back to the bridge.
- The question is how far out they were at Warp 5 since it had to be less than "12 hours and 43 minutes" at Warp 5 factoring in McCoy prepping the sick bay and the Reliant-Enterprise closing to point-blank range/Kirk returning to bridge time.

We can also narrow it down a little.
- According to Terrell, Khan killed the Regula 1 crew and was running late to go intercept the Enterprise. Now we know Reliant left from Regula 1 to meet Enterprise.
- McCoy discovers that for the dead Regula 1 crew "rigor hasn't set in", so that sets a time frame for traveling from the first battle to Regula 1 at auxiliary power to about 3-11 hours.

Interesting discussion though

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What does that mean?
A context doesn't define victory or defeat.

Neither does firepower or the "greatness" of a starship.

Reliant mission abilities are irrelevant to it's combat abilites.

In some ways, yes. But that doesn't mean its combat abilities are relevant to all (or even MOST) of its mission abilities.

Conjecture:

No. It's been exhaustively analyzed on these threads before, by smarter people than me.

You've found a schism in the movie. If Enterprise is 12 hours out then reliant should not have returned to the station to find Enterprise instead they should have been out in deep space. FURTHER IF WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE...(notice the cap) then Reliant COULD NOT have made it to Regula...

We don't know that it did. In fact, we have NO IDEA where Reliant was while Enterprise was at Regula, nor what it was doing. We know she had at least an hour head start to get to Regula-1 on thruster power, and we know Enterprise' long range sensors were out of action.

The only thing we know for sure is that by the time Kirk and party beamed down to the asteroid, Reliant was close enough to beam up Genesis with its transporters. At the very least that puts her somewhere inside the system, close enough to use transporters, but not close enough to notice Enterprise beginning to maneuver away. The progression in the Genesis cave also suggests Reliant was relatively close to Regula by the time her impulse engines came back online, but--again--not close enough to be able to see what Enterprise was doing.

The default is Reliant's main-power are operating untill such time as it's logically supported as inoperable or reported failed. We have no such evidence to conclude the warp drive and mains are always interchangeable.

Except for the obvious fact that every OTHER time in TOS through TUC, the loss of one ALWAYS implies the loss of the other. Why would TWOK be the singular exception to the rule?

Perceptional: conveniently perceptional
So I'll consider the contention conceeded. There is no defined upper limit as to how much he understands the deception.

He doesn't appear to understand any sort of deception is afoot until Kirk starts taunting him. Prior to this, he merely expresses pleasant surprise that Enterprise is far less crippled than he thought.

After "I'm laughing at your superior intellect" it's not clear what he knows or what the "upper limit" of his understanding is. Nor does it matter, because at that point, deception or not, he knows Kirk has somehow outsmarted him and now he's going for the kill.

That is indirect and not a logical inference.

It IS a logical inference; it is the ONLY conclusion that fits the scene.

Repetition is not reasoning. It's an excuse, no direct support.

The direct support are the FACTS: Reliant has four torpedo tubes, Enterprise has two. If Photon torpedoes are more powerful than phasers (and they are) then the heavier torpedo armament can fully account for Spock's "she can still outgun us" comment.

It's YOUR turn to provide direct support--not equivocation, no appealing to dictionary definitions, not supposition, not hypothesis, but actual evidence--that Spock is talking about Reliant's phasers. Because although we can tell for a FACT that Reliant has two aft torpedo tubes, the premise that her phasers are inherently more powerful is still up for debate.

Firepower yes but not outgunned.

Now you're just equivocating. If "outgunned" means "superior firepower" then the photon torpedoes qualify. If "outgunned" means "larger number of weapons," then the photon torpedoes STILL qualify.

Perhaps you should hunt down a dictionary that defines "outgunned" as "possessing superior phaser armament"?

We don't know that.

Yes we do. Scotty calls the bridge, woozy from radiation sickness, and says "Admiral, I've got to take the mains off the line..." and then mutters something about radiation.

This is the same radiation that later kills Spock. It is in a part of the ship that wasn't damaged by Khan's attack. More importantly, the main energizer appears to have STILL BEEN ACTIVE even after Khan's phaser attack, and repairs to that section--NOT the torpedo deck--restored main power.

If the phasers had anything to do with it, it was in screwing up Scotty's bypasses and causing in a radiation leak.

In the script...

Does not appear in the film.

Circumstantial evidence which is all based on the assumption (not the evident proof) I can not be held responsible for your inability to provide concrete evidence.

Three years and a major motion picture tell us that phasers work a particular way; you have just decided, with no evidence whatsoever, that they don't work that way at all.

At best we can only surmise Reliant's full power shot in the opening battle...

Nothing suggests it was a "full power" shot. The warp power transfer issue remains relevant.

Pure Conjecture:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

You have supported the Assumption that the phasers are capable of channeling All THE POWER FROM THE MAINS. "Thus a few shots" means this is ALL Enterprise can do battery power. YET ENTERPRISE does far more on your supposed support of Blssdwlf's assertion that Enterprise was on battery power later in stead of impulse.

What does that even MEAN?

YET THEY FIRE MORE AT THE END.

The end of what?

Enterprises splash s slightly smaller compared to Reliant's (camera:distant shot) than Enterprise's.

Looking at blsdwlf's analysis, that appears not to be the case. Have I missed something?

Dance around what?
The phasers hit a nacelle full of plasma.
The numerous secondary explosions are evidence of this.

Great.

So doesn't this count as evidence that Enterprise's phasers were more powerful than Reliant's? There's all the effects YOU listed as evidence for the contrary, including
- Big splash effect
- Big fires
- Major system damage
Just to name a few.

If the TARGET of the phaser strike has nothing to do with the resulting effects, then why is the nacelle a special case while the TORPEDO ROOM isn't?

However weapons that can take all the power from a source are not considered mainstays and thus can not be standard armament but rather a super weapon.

If you say so.

Thus the ratio would be (18 to -16) (phaser to power) And that doesn't make any sense at all.

Why? If a single phaser bank could channel full warp power, then theoretically you only need ONE bank to be pointed at your target in order to hit him with full power.

To use a non-trek example: imagine a small spherical spacecraft with a single, multi-jointed, very long manipulator arm. At the end of this arm is a single phaser bank capable of accepting full warp power. Since the arm can move around the ship, that single bank can strike any target in any direction around the ship. Place this ship into combat with a spherical spacecraft that possesses TWO phaser emitters, one forward and one aft, such that at any given time it can bring a single emitter to bear on a target. If both have equal power output from their engines, then both have equal phaser outputs for any given target. The latter, however, has the advantage of being able to hit two targets at once by dividing warp power between the two, while the former has to hit them one at a time. And the latter has one additional advantage: if while firing on a target a single phaser bank overheats, it can spin itself around and fire off the other bank while the first one cools down.

It makes more sense for TOS since she only had only one set of phasers.

If you go by dialog in "Paradise Syndrome", Enterprise has at least four.

There is no "explaining" there is only evidence and fact.
Explaining would rely only on conjecture.

That's a very sophisticated way of saying "I dunno."

But you have not narrowed down the possibilities to ONE as you believe

I just asked you for another plausible explanation. You declined. So... yes, it's been narrowed down to one.

No assumption is safe.
You cannot logically determine that DAMAGE means DISABLED POWER SYSTEM.

When in Star Trek has ever it ever NOT meant the disabled power system?

The Projection is based on a range of solar orbital speeds. Higher velocities are considered unlikely, they use this range to project the possible destructive force of all NEO's.

Since there aren't any "Near Earth Objects" the size of Texas, I've forced to wonder if you borrowed that projection from Michael Bay.

Anyway, the point is mass and velocity have little or nothing to do with material hardness and density. Even an orbital velocities, an asteroid the size of texas would do considerably more damage than an identically-sized comet.

This is irrelevant.
On the one hand we have have with hulls
On the other hand we have ships with phasers
Those ships generate a certain amount of power.
Reliant's phaser did not reduce Enterprise to slag.

And therefore, they were not fired at full power.

QED.

ASSUMPTIONS EVERYWHERE!
Do you not understand that I'm not making allowance for any assumptions?

Really? Because so far that's all you've brought to the table, making assumptions about what Joachim REALLY meant, about what was going on in the background, about the nature of phasers, warp power, Khan's inner thoughts, the radiation leak in the energizer, the cause of the fire in the torpedo room, Spock's exact meaning in the use of the word "outgunned" and Reliant's typical phaser output.. those are all assumptions.

I said two pages ago that the FACTS do not support your premise one way or the other because there simply isn't enough evidence either way. The only thing you can FACTUALLY come away with in this case is "inconclusive." We're now down to discussing the details, and there's a limited number of facts that shed some light on them as well:

In order of relevance:
- The dialog
- The visuals
- The control panels
- The sequence of events

If you weren't not making allowances for assumptions you wouldn't still be here, dude.

Status quo. You assumed the designs were similar.

They ARE similar.

A scenario built by assumption...

It's not an assumption... at least, not on MY part. Joachim instantly assumed that there was nothing he could do about the phasers being out and he told Khan they had to withdrawal. If Reliant is ANYTHING like Enterprise, he would have been wrong.

But let's go with YOUR assumption. Reliant is UNLIKE Enterprise in that it has no way of transferring phaser power from battery/emergency sources. In which case, Joachim was correct, "We can't fire." The reason is "They've knocked out the photon control and the warp drive."

Either? You're sitting here telling me that the power is off just due to damage. You're not allowing for anything but the conclusion that the power was off.

Yes, because the connection between "phaser power" and "warp drive" is WELL established through TOS and TMP. The connection between the phaser banks and the impulse deflection crystal... not so much.

The connection is plausible IF you had any supporting evidence for it. Do you or don't you?

But the option is off OR on.
Which it never says the power is off. Where is EITHER in your argument? You've lost the either. You can't find either. Otherwise you really could recognize that there is two options instead of one. That's what you need for either. TWO. Not One....TWO...NOT one....You're allowing for just one. So there is no either in your argument. You can't use the word either because you have yet to recognize the other...

WTF???

And technically, he's wrong. Enterprise restored impulse power less than an hour later.

Technically you're wrong too.
They restored impulse power minutes after the exchange.

Yes, "minutes" qualifies as "less than an hour" last time I checked.

Your whole theory here is kinda wacky considering even at warp 2 and One Lightyear away the ETA would be 36 days. There is simply no way Reliant or Enterprise could travel a distance covered by warp speed in 12 hours on impulse in anything under several months.

That's a general (and well recognized) plot hole with the movie itself, and alot more relevant to the various "How fast is warp/impulse" discussions.

For the sake of argument, though, it's evident that both ships were fairly close to Regula when they made the intercept, close enough that Enterprise could get there slowly on impulse and that Reliant could get there slightly more slowly on thrusters. You can either chalk this up to one of those trekism "speed fudge" moments, or you can give yourself an aneurism trying to make sense of it. Your call.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We can also narrow it down a little.
- According to Terrell, Khan killed the Regula 1 crew and was running late to go intercept the Enterprise. Now we know Reliant left from Regula 1 to meet Enterprise.
- McCoy discovers that for the dead Regula 1 crew "rigor hasn't set in", so that sets a time frame for traveling from the first battle to Regula 1 at auxiliary power to about 3-11 hours.

I hadn't thought of that... but actually, if we take as a given that Khan killed them all BEFORE he left to go to Enterprise, then that's 3-11 hours for Reliant to fly after Enterprise AND for Enterprise to limp there on impulse power. Kirk is told "Twelve hours forty three minutes" in a scene AFTER Reliant leaves... Wouldn't that mean Enterprise got there faster under impulse than she would have at warp five?

 

[blssdwlf]

@newtype_alpha - Spock says 12h 43m on the bridge before going to Kirk's quarters. That leaves a bit of time before the actual point-blank battle. The battle might have occured a couple of hours away at warp from Regula 1. The warp terrain also is another variable that could slow the effective ftl speed down as well...

 

[Saquist]

7-9% difference in volume is not enough to say either way there would be a change in designation, IMHO.

I already did the calculations that ended with 9% and ruled them as erroneous. The Secondary hull neck and extra long Pylons represent at least 25% more volume than Reliant. The Base assumption is that the ships have the same components arranged differently. Not that the have similar looking components at different sizes. If the former is true then Reliant's length is likely wrong. So at least 15% less.

Recap for you: Spock was specifically mentioning an intermix formula that would allow them to mix the matter and antimatter at a colder temperature and faster timing thought possible since they had to do an emergency restart which normally required at a minimum 22 minutes. Spock's intermix formula was able to do it in less than 3 minutes. The implosion also caused them to rocket back in time for a few days. Thus, time and antimatter. Under normal conditions intermix is for mixing matter and antimatter.

The most important question here is:
Do they ever use the words "antimatter and matter"?

They went to red alert 12 seconds after Khan begins to fire phasers. The Enterprise is NOT under Red Alert until after the attack.

Explain.
The attack finishes at 51:48
Began at 50:19
Red Alert occurs during the attack.
The words "Alert" and "Red Alert are flashing during "terms of surrender", behind Spock as Kirk offers hmself to Khan. Still flashing behind Kirk moments after he gives the order to fire. It's one continuous scene to Enterprise firing. Bridge remains alert red.

The crew of the Enterprise happens to also be a majority of trainees or as Kirk put it, "a boatload of children." And during the surprise attack, few stayed at their stations while the rest of the "trainees ran." You could argue that a non-trainee ship could get crew down there to the torpedo bay, but I'd argue that even with 4 1/2 minutes it'd be a miracle for a trainee torpedo crew to get down there and get the power going to start moving torpedoes to ready for launch. (Just look at the poor trainee sitting at the bridge weapon console ) And that's assuming they were still getting power since that was a critical problem at the time.

But that's conjecture.
Kirk is the Key.
He wouldn't know this and received no particular belay of a torpedo order.

The damage report tells us also that the Enterprise only had batteries left to fight with.

And according to you that same situation occurs in the nebula and Enterprise muster much more than a few shots but two torps...so the contradiction in this argument remains.

What we know certainly allows it. You're just choosing to not allow it for yourself to fit your argument

Yes, no conjecture to prove arguements.
That's a staple of all debates even in legal systems. You must have evidence or proof.

Isn't that an assumption?

How I describe and what labels I use is irrelevant.
It's analysis. Enterprise wouldn't have the power to use all of it's weapons simultaneously.

In TOS, the Enterprise has identified via dialogue that she has Forward, Port, Starboard, Midships and Aft phasers. At a minimum, that's 5 (one for each arc). If you double up to the dual phaser configuration that the forwards have, then that's 10. If you want to also say it's the same configuration that the refit has, then that's 18.

Then it only makes the design intent of the Enterprse worse for BOTH TOS and TMP ships. Insufficient power for the weapon implacements.

Look, we're all making assumptions here. You, me, Newtype.

I'm not making ANY assumptions on the issue of the debate which relates directly to firepower. On whether Reliant and Enterprise are the same in power systems I assume we all agree that they are. That would be an fundamental assumption. These do exist but not for the purpose of proving a particular argument but rather as a baseline.

You're assuming Reliant fired on full power in the initial strike.

Assumption is a unconfirmed conclusion.
My first impression is that Reliant is at full power. I never assumed.

Even if you completely discount all of TOS, you're still stuck with the inserts of low phaser power transfer to Reliant's phasers in the initial attack and low photon torpedo settings for the Enterprise in the nebula battle. And all the battle damage and power loss. No matter how you cut it, there is no way you can argue that Reliant has more powerful phasers than the Enterprise since we never get to see them both fully-powered up slugging it out.

Insert posted does not show us the actual charge but merely warp power transfer.
Inconsistent to rely on.
Torpedo charges were turned down.

Regarding the flight times from Khan's surprise attack on the Enterprise. Let's see what we have:

- Enterprise is "12 hours and 43 minutes, present speed" away from Regula 1 when Kirk calls for a meeting in his cabin/office.
- Enterprise's last known speed was Warp 5.
- Some time later, McCoy shows up in the Kirk's cabin/office after getting the sick bay ready. I know the film cut it a certain way, but they left in time in the dialogue. So subtract X time from 12h 43m.
- After the briefing, Enterprise detects the Reliant closing fast on them. Subtract Y time from initial detection to close to point-blank range where they slow to impulse and time for Kirk and buddies to travel back to the bridge.
- The question is how far out they were at Warp 5 since it had to be less than "12 hours and 43 minutes" at Warp 5 factoring in McCoy prepping the sick bay and the Reliant-Enterprise closing to point-blank range/Kirk returning to bridge time.

We can also narrow it down a little.
- According to Terrell, Khan killed the Regula 1 crew and was running late to go intercept the Enterprise. Now we know Reliant left from Regula 1 to meet Enterprise.
- McCoy discovers that for the dead Regula 1 crew "rigor hasn't set in", so that sets a time frame for traveling from the first battle to Regula 1 at auxiliary power to about 3-11 hours.

Interesting discussion though

I do not concur.
No time left in dialogue. Kirk gives the order for McCoy to joing them in his cabin and there is no room for the order to be obeyed at Bones' discretion. You've taken hours off when you can only justify minutes. Script says they start for the turbolift immediately.

Then there is Absolutely NO cut scene. They merely appear on the bridge immediately after Saaviks report.

And the rigor mortis doesn't tell us anything other than a minimum. The elapsed time in the meeting is a max of 30. We don't know when Reliant departed. Reliant could have taken 3 hours to get to Enterprise and Enterprise 3 hours to regula. It doesn't narrow window at all. We're still looking at 11:30 hours at warp which would take months to cover on impulse.

 

[blssdwlf]

7-9% difference in volume is not enough to say either way there would be a change in designation, IMHO.

I already did the calculations that ended with 9% and ruled them as erroneous. ...So at least 15% less.

Can you show us your calculations?

Recap for you: Spock was specifically mentioning an intermix formula that would allow them to mix the matter and antimatter at a colder temperature and faster timing thought possible since they had to do an emergency restart which normally required at a minimum 22 minutes. Spock's intermix formula was able to do it in less than 3 minutes. The implosion also caused them to rocket back in time for a few days. Thus, time and antimatter. Under normal conditions intermix is for mixing matter and antimatter.

The most important question here is:
Do they ever use the words "antimatter and matter"?

What like...

SCOTT: Captain, you can't mix matter and antimatter cold. We'd go up in the biggest explosion since
KIRK: We can balance our engines into a controlled implosion.
SCOTT: That's only a theory. It's never been done.
KIRK: Bridge, have you found Mister Spock yet?
SCOTT: If you wanted to chance odds of ten thousand to one, maybe, assuming we had a row of computers working weeks on the right formula.
...
KIRK: (to Spock) You've got to hear me! We need a formula. We've got to risk implosion!
...
SPOCK: Jim, there is an intermix formula.
...
SPOCK: It's never been tested. It's a theoretical relationship between time and antimatter.
...
SPOCK: Stand by to intermix. I'll call the formula in from the Bridge.

Explain.
The attack finishes at 51:48
Began at 50:19
Red Alert occurs during the attack.
The words "Alert" and "Red Alert are flashing during "terms of surrender", behind Spock as Kirk offers hmself to Khan. Still flashing behind Kirk moments after he gives the order to fire. It's one continuous scene to Enterprise firing. Bridge remains alert red.

And the Red Alert mode does not start until 12 seconds into the attack. The Enterprise was not at battlestations and not on Red Alert status prior to the attack.

But that's conjecture.
Kirk is the Key.

"Kirk is the key" is conjecture as well

Did Kirk keep the trainees from abandoning their stations in engineering? If using photons was an option when he looked over at the weapons station consoles, he would have asked for them. (And Kirk clearly looks at them when he asks about Scotty about phaser power.)

And according to you that same situation occurs in the nebula and Enterprise muster much more than a few shots but two torps...so the contradiction in this argument remains.

Let's try and reference me accurately, okay? The Enterprise fired 4 seconds of phaser fire while on battery power in the initial battle. When on battery power in the nebula she only fired 1 second of phaser fire and 2 low powered torpedoes. Perhaps you should explain why you think there is a contradiction when the second time around the Enterprise expended less energy on phasers?

How I describe and what labels I use is irrelevant.
It's analysis. Enterprise wouldn't have the power to use all of it's weapons simultaneously.

Your analysis is still dependent on your assumptions. Here you're assuming that the Enterprise cannot split her power output among all her phaser emitters to be fired simultaneously...

My first impression is that Reliant is at full power. I never assumed.

So you're saying that you think that a battery-powered, crippled ship firing phasers at a non-volatile target area can inflict the same amount of damage as a fully powered and undamaged ship?

Even if you completely discount all of TOS, you're still stuck with the inserts of low phaser power transfer to Reliant's phasers in the initial attack and low photon torpedo settings for the Enterprise in the nebula battle. And all the battle damage and power loss. No matter how you cut it, there is no way you can argue that Reliant has more powerful phasers than the Enterprise since we never get to see them both fully-powered up slugging it out.

Insert posted does not show us the actual charge but merely warp power transfer.
Inconsistent to rely on.
Torpedo charges were turned down.

Inconsistent how? Inconsistent to your assumption that Reliant was firing full powered phasers?

Regarding the flight times from Khan's surprise attack on the Enterprise. Let's see what we have:

- Enterprise is "12 hours and 43 minutes, present speed" away from Regula 1 when Kirk calls for a meeting in his cabin/office.
- Enterprise's last known speed was Warp 5.
- Some time later, McCoy shows up in the Kirk's cabin/office after getting the sick bay ready. I know the film cut it a certain way, but they left in time in the dialogue. So subtract X time from 12h 43m.
- After the briefing, Enterprise detects the Reliant closing fast on them. Subtract Y time from initial detection to close to point-blank range where they slow to impulse and time for Kirk and buddies to travel back to the bridge.
- The question is how far out they were at Warp 5 since it had to be less than "12 hours and 43 minutes" at Warp 5 factoring in McCoy prepping the sick bay and the Reliant-Enterprise closing to point-blank range/Kirk returning to bridge time.

We can also narrow it down a little.
- According to Terrell, Khan killed the Regula 1 crew and was running late to go intercept the Enterprise. Now we know Reliant left from Regula 1 to meet Enterprise.
- McCoy discovers that for the dead Regula 1 crew "rigor hasn't set in", so that sets a time frame for traveling from the first battle to Regula 1 at auxiliary power to about 3-11 hours.

Interesting discussion though

I do not concur.
No time left in dialogue. Kirk gives the order for McCoy to join them in his cabin and there is no room for the order to be obeyed at Bones' discretion. You've taken hours off when you can only justify minutes. Script says they start for the turbolift immediately.

Pfft, like everything in the script makes into the final cut.

Watch the movie again
KIRK: Uhura, have Doctor McCoy to join us in my quarters.
KIRK: Mister Saavik, you have the con.

Camera cuts with Kirk still sitting in his command chair talking to Spock.
Next scene starts with McCoy walking into Kirk's quarters and Spock standing and Kirk sitting at his desk. Note that McCoy is told to go to Kirk's quarters but McCoy walks in telling them that he just finished getting sick bay ready.

McCOY: Well, I've got the sick bay ready. Now will someone please tell me what's going on?

You are assuming that McCoy cannot exercise discretion when obeying orders. If you think that is true, maybe you should watch some more TOS episodes. Like from "The Corbomite Maneuver" where McCoy deliberately ignores red alert to get Kirk to finish his exam.

The time we have between Kirk and Spock leaving the bridge to go to his quarters and time for McCoy to finish his sick bay readiness are two more variables (T1 and T2).

Then there is Absolutely NO cut scene. They merely appear on the bridge immediately after Saaviks report.

I said that these particular scenes are cut in such a way that there is a variable amount of time between each scene.

SAAVIK (on intercom): It's one of ours, Admiral. ...It's Reliant.
KIRK: Reliant!

Kirk is still sitting at his desk when the scene cuts to the bridge and they're exiting out of the turbolift. The time it took for them to leave Kirk's quarters to get to the bridge is another variable (T3).

And then there is the approach of the Reliant to Enterprise.

KIRK: Try the emergency channels. ...Picture, Mister Saavik.

cut to main viewer with Reliant in the distance

and then another cut to the Reliant close-up (not through the main viewer)

These cuts add another time variable (T4)

and then cut to Reliant's bridge
KHAN: Slow to one-half impulse power. Let's be friends.
HELMSMAN: Slowing to one-half impulse power.

and then another cut to Enterprise's bridge
This cut add another time variable (T5)

SULU: Reliant in our section, this Quadrant, sir, and slowing.
SAAVIK: Sir, may I quote General Order Twelve, 'On the approach of any vessel, when communications have not been established...
SPOCK: Lieutenant, the Admiral is well aware of the Regulations.
SAAVIK: Aye sir.
KIRK (OC): Is it possible that their Comm system has failed?
SPOCK (OC): It would explain a great many things.

And then another cut to Reliant's bridge
This cut add another time variable (T6)

JOACHIM: They're requesting communications, sir.
KHAN: Let them eat static!
JOACHIM (OC): They're still running with shields down.
KHAN: Of course. We're one big happy fleet. Ah, Kirk, my old friend, do you know the Klingon proverb that tells us 'Revenge is a dish that is best served cold?' It is very cold ...in space.

And then cut to exterior scene.
It is not until this scene that establishes that the two ships are physically close to each other.

And the rigor mortis doesn't tell us anything other than a minimum.

You mean a maximum amount of time.

McCOY: Jim! ...Well rigor hasn't set in. This couldn't have happened too long ago, Jim.

The elapsed time in the meeting is a max of 30. We don't know when Reliant departed. Reliant could have taken 3 hours to get to Enterprise and Enterprise 3 hours to regula. It doesn't narrow window at all. We're still looking at 11:30 hours at warp which would take months to cover on impulse.

On impulse power, the Enterprise can make 0.8c (TMP). At 11 hours travel time (before rigor would set in at 12 hours) she can cover 63 AU. If we went by TOS ("WNMHGB","TBOFT") they could push the impulse drive to FTL speeds. Food for thought, we never hear the order for Enterprise to drop to impulse. We just see that Reliant is traveling backwards in the same direction as Enterprise and it is Reliant that slows down to her impulse power to meet the Enterprise. I wouldn't be surprised that Reliant is running her impulse in FTL mode

In TOS context, a ship at warp in system or near large stars or masses can be significantly slowed down in actual speeds while at warp speed. We've seen this in:
- "Operation: Annihilate" where the Enterprise at Warp 8 barely appears to be going faster than 5c, calculated for time and estimated distance.
- Also this affect is seen in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" where even at Warp 9+ speeds, the actual calculated speed from Earth to the Sun is still barely 5c.
- And again in "The Voyage Home" where the BOP goes to Warp 2 in the atmosphere but it takes 2 minutes to get above Earth's atmosphere (that's not even FTL )

So let's work this like those math questions that we use to do in school

Reliant leaves Regula 1 to intercept Enterprise. She travels at an better than 1/2 impulse and meets Enterprise at an Interception Point that is 11 hours away at impulse power.

Enterprise is 12 hours and 43 minutes away at Warp 5 when Kirk, Spock and McCoy spend T1 and T2 time to travel to Kirk's quarters. Then they spend 4 minutes chatting before being told that sensors have detected the Reliant approaching them. Then they spend T3 time to get to the bridge. Then there are three more cuts between the Reliant exterior shot, and the two bridges, so spend T4, T5 and T6 time on those cuts and bridge dialogue before we're shown the two ships next to each other at the Interception Point.

So with some TOS/TVH precedent, I'm going to make the assumption that the actual speed of Warp 5 in this instance is about 3c, or a little faster than half of Warp 8 at 5c and attribute that to the warp terrain near Regula 1.

Travel 11 Hours @ Impulse Power = Distance to Regula 1 at Intercept Point = (12 Hours 43 Min - T1 - T2 - 4 minutes - T3 - T4 - T5 - T6 - bridge dialogue) Hours @ Warp 5 [ x c ]

11 Hours @ 0.8c = 63 AU = 3 Hours @ Warp 5 @ 3c

or in a FTL impulse scenario...

11 Hours @ 2.0c = 158 AU = 7 Hours @ Warp 5 @ 3c

or some combination that fits 11 Hours @ Impulse which isn't that hard to do with TOS and TVH as a precedent.

Could McCoy use up a couple of hours readying Sick Bay before deciding to join Kirk and Spock? Sure why not. Could Kirk have waited in his quarters to plan with Spock and McCoy for a few hours until Reliant got within contact range before going to the bridge? Sure could. Could the time we spend watching an exterior shot of the Reliant represent a few more hours of actual time? Yep. Could the Enterprise be operating in an environment that could affect their actual FTL speeds, yep - there's a nearby nebula and we know the Interception Point is only 11 hours away at impulse to Regula 1. There are enough variables in play that in a TOS and TOS Movie context, it works out since we have a time and rough idea what the speeds are to Regula 1 at impulse power and it's just a matter of fitting the other variables around it...

Saquist, all I'm reading from you is that if it doesn't fit your assumptions then you toss it. Why bother with trying to justify that the Reliant's rollbar phasers are more powerful by using the movie at all then when you aren't so sure of the movie in the first place?

 

[Saquist]

Can you show us your calculations?

I only did the calculations you did and got a mere 9% like yourself. So the impression I got was that Reliant's scaling maybe off, so we'll go through those equations now to find out how close or how off I am.

David Schmidt gives a length of 240 meters
G2K says 243.
Litteral CAD Says 237.4617 at beam of 140.3870

Now we apply a proportion
(assuming G2K's Volumetric are good light wave models)
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html


G2K's Miranda 243 Volume of 217,770
CAD's 237 and a volume of x

Cross multiply:217,770 x 237
Cross multiply 243 x X

51611490 = 243x
Answer for x = 212,392.96296296296296296296296296 cubic Meters.

That's 5,377.0370370370370370370370371 LESS than estimated.
-----------------------

Constitition II is marked on G2K's site as 261,590 cubic meters. Reliant's new figure 212,392.9629 and the DIFFERENCE 49,197.0371 LESS than Than Enterprise.

* My mistake becomes apparent as when I first crunched these numbers for his model I mistakenly used the TOS model because he marked it Constitution A. Which is not the one I needed.

So the percentage is that Reliant is 81.1930% of Enterprise's volume. 18.8% percent less...


That was fun....
---------------------------------------------------------


What like...

SCOTT: Captain, you can't mix matter and antimatter cold. We'd go up in the biggest explosion since
KIRK: We can balance our engines into a controlled

Sufficiently confirmed.

And the Red Alert mode does not start until 12 seconds into the attack. The Enterprise was not at battlestations and not on Red Alert status prior to the attack.

This doesn't mean anything though.
Regardless there was almost 7 minutes to get to duty stations.

"Kirk is the key" is conjecture as well

It's an imperative. A statement of the obvious.
Conjecture: Conjecture definition, the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.

My Statement:
"Kirk is Key. He doesn't ask for torpedoes he ask Sulu to arm phasers. "
-------------------------------------------------
There is no speculation or conjecture. It is a statement of fact.
-------------------------------------------------
Your Statement.
"The crew of the Enterprise happens to also be a majority of trainees or as Kirk put it, "a boatload of children." And during the surprise attack, few stayed at their stations while the rest of the "trainees ran." You could argue that a non-trainee ship could get crew down there to the torpedo bay, but I'd argue that even with 4 1/2 minutes it'd be a miracle for a trainee torpedo crew to get down there and get the power going to start moving torpedoes to ready for launch."

The bold is pure conjecture.
We don't know where the Trainee quarters are
We don't know how many were on duty or maybe none were on duty.
Thirdly you are speculating disaster in Engineering must mean Disaster in the torpedo room. We have no evidence to that assumption. We can't speak to these events AT ALL because the movie is silent. All we know is that Enterprise was at Alert conditions and there was an appreciable amount of time IF they weren't on station to get there.

We can't just apply the word conjecture willy-nilly, it has to fit the definition. That's speculation without proof. That's we're doing all this. To actually find out if Reliant is lesser or Greater based on the facts and using at few assumptions as possible.

Did Kirk keep the trainees from abandoning their stations in engineering? If using photons was an option when he looked over at the weapons station consoles, he would have asked for them. (And Kirk clearly looks at them when he asks about Scotty about phaser power.)

Or he just as easily have decided from the station that there was obviously no power for torpedoes. That's conjecture, just like your statement assuming Trainee's had run amok s conjecture. Logic simply dictates that they weren't available. We're not told why. But the implication is that Enterprise did not have enough power.

The only reason why this is a problem logistically is because you assume the Enterprise was on battery power in the Nebula at the end. So I'll check the movie about your phaser time firings.

Let's try and reference me accurately, okay? The Enterprise fired 4 seconds of phaser fire while on battery power in the initial battle.

[When on battery power in the nebula she only fired 1 second of phaser fire and 2 low powered torpedoes. Perhaps you should explain why you think there is a contradiction when the second time around the Enterprise expended less energy on phasers?

Counting the seconds of phaser fire doesn't tell us how powerful the weapon was. We really can't draw any conclusions from duration of fire to fire power.

Your analysis is still dependent on your assumptions. Here you're assuming that the Enterprise cannot split her power output among all her phaser emitters to be fired simultaneously...

You miss understand. I'm not saying that Enterprise can't use all it's emitters simultaneously. I'm sayng (based on your argument) Enterprise can't use full power to fire all it's phasers simultaneously...which is the point of multiple phaser arcs.

So you're saying that you think that a battery-powered, crippled ship firing phasers at a non-volatile target area can inflict the same amount of damage as a fully powered and undamaged ship?

It wasn't the same amount of damage.
Enterprise lost a bunch of systems.
shields
mainpower
aux power
sensors
turbolifts

But yes...It may be the first indication that the phasers have a power output limit but you can only decided that by the severity of damage to the part of ship hits.

Inconsistent how? Inconsistent to your assumption that Reliant was firing full powered phasers?

I just told you.
You have one image of Reliant's charge indicators that you believe means reduced power. Then you have a another image of the actual torpedo charge slide bars being pulled to zero and yet the effect is Stronger and more destructive than Reliant's restrained hit.

Pfft, like everything in the script makes into the final cut.

You're right of course but there is no indication of a time lapse. Cinematography applies cut scenes to purpose like external views of the ship. Here we simply move from one scene to another with the same characters. The only time editing that can be allowed logically is travel from the bridge his cabin.

Watch the movie again
KIRK: Uhura, have Doctor McCoy to join us in my quarters.
KIRK: Mister Saavik, you have the con.

Camera cuts with Kirk still sitting in his command chair talking to Spock.
Next scene starts with McCoy walking into Kirk's quarters and Spock standing and Kirk sitting at his desk. Note that McCoy is told to go to Kirk's quarters but McCoy walks in telling them that he just finished getting sick bay ready.

I can't concur. I must point out the accuracy issue.
This dialogue doesn't say he 'just" finished getting sickbay ready." which would imply "as of this instance"

The time we have between Kirk and Spock leaving the bridge to go to his quarters and time for McCoy to finish his sick bay readiness are two more variables (T1 and T2).



I said that these particular scenes are cut in such a way that there is a variable amount of time between each scene.

This is visual story telling. There are none of the traditional cues to tell us that any more than minutes elapsed. Your equation should be more like tolerances. T1=5m +/-2ms

These cuts add another time variable (T4)

This cut add another time variable (T5)

And then cut to exterior scene.
It is not until this scene that establishes that the two ships are physically close to each other.

In cinematography only types of cut scenes mean an elapse of time. Generally these are any cut scenes where afterward there is a change of characters and settings as to say "in the intervening period of time", other wise there is a standard progression of time especially during action scenes such as this.

You mean a maximum amount of time.

McCOY: Jim! ...Well rigor hasn't set in. This couldn't have happened too long ago, Jim.

Indeed, I misunderstood.
This could mean in less than 3 hours: which would make no sense since Enterprise was 12 hours away on initial detection.

So logically it must mean Reliant returned to the station and worked over the crew...However Terrel says it happened before they left to get Enterprise. So the schims remains there is a time/location error in the film.

Or Reliant traveled significantly faster than warp 5
So the question is how fast does reliant have to go basically get to Enterprise in about an hour an a half?
------------------
Enterprise can cover a 1/3 of a light year in 12 hours at warp five.

Warp 5 is 213x c
Warp 7 is 656x c (that would be somewhere in the 4 hour range.
Warp 9 is 1516 so that's 7.11 x warp five. So about an hour an a half...

So that means it's possible under this speculation by the online warp speed calculator.

Saquist, all I'm reading from you is that if it doesn't fit your assumptions then you toss it. Why bother with trying to justify that the Reliant's rollbar phasers are more powerful by using the movie at all then when you aren't so sure of the movie in the first place?

If it's conjecture I toss it.
I don't do assumptions.
I will never say: "sure why not'
or "one could argue."

It's either yes, no or unknown.

-----------------------------
So, that's why looking at the initial Enterprise Strike and the final Enterprise Strike. If Enterprise had ONLY a few phaser shots on batteries then logically The final strike was not the Enterprise on Batteries in which Enterprise fires phasers and torpedoes. No amount of conjecture can over turn these facts. Only more information from another source.

This establishes the initial intent of the movie despite edits.
SCOTTY

Admiral, I've got to take the mains
off the line. The energizer's shaken
loose and I can't get in there to
fix her -- radiation --

203 INT. ENTERPRISE BRIDGE 203

KIRK
All right, we'll do the job with
auxiliary power.

http://movies.trekcore.com/wrathofkhan/script.txt

 

[Saquist]

oh heres the image for the scaling

Spoiler: h

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[blssdwlf]

Can you show us your calculations?

I only did the calculations you did and got a mere 9% like yourself. So the impression I got was that Reliant's scaling maybe off, so we'll go through those equations now to find out how close or how off I am.

David Schmidt gives a length of 240 meters
G2K says 243.
Litteral CAD Says 237.4617 at beam of 140.3870

Wait a sec. Are you saying you didn't use the same figures from the same site and mixed and matched? I mean, G2K's models might be calibrated for the same size primary hull. If you pull someone else's data, you don't know if the ship's are matched to each other. You could end up altering the size of one ship based on a differently built 3D model.

This doesn't mean anything though.
Regardless there was almost 7 minutes to get to duty stations.


My Statement:
"Kirk is Key. He doesn't ask for torpedoes he ask Sulu to arm phasers. "
-------------------------------------------------
There is no speculation or conjecture. It is a statement of fact.
-------------------------------------------------

This is exactly what you wrote:

"But that's conjecture.
Kirk is the Key.
He wouldn't know this and received no particular belay of a torpedo order."

The fact is that you never wrote, "He doesn't ask for torpedoes he ask Sulu to arm phasers."

Another fact is that the phasers are already armed. (When they go to Yellow Alert.)

KIRK: Visual! ...Sulu, divert all power to phasers.

Another fact, after the torpedo hit and loss of auxiliary power, Kirk walks over to check out the weapons status. He looks at a weapons console and then right at the phaser and torpedo console and asks Scotty about phaser power.

You can see this at top row, middle column and 2nd row, 1st column.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=36&page=7

Your Statement.
"The crew of the Enterprise happens to also be a majority of trainees or as Kirk put it, "a boatload of children." And during the surprise attack, few stayed at their stations while the rest of the "trainees ran." You could argue that a non-trainee ship could get crew down there to the torpedo bay, but I'd argue that even with 4 1/2 minutes it'd be a miracle for a trainee torpedo crew to get down there and get the power going to start moving torpedoes to ready for launch."

The bold is pure conjecture.
We don't know where the Trainee quarters are
We don't know how many were on duty or maybe none were on duty.
Thirdly you are speculating disaster in Engineering must mean Disaster in the torpedo room. We have no evidence to that assumption. We can't speak to these events AT ALL because the movie is silent. All we know is that Enterprise was at Alert conditions and there was an appreciable amount of time IF they weren't on station to get there.

And you have no evidence to support your conjecture that the trainees could or did make it down to the torpedo bay.

And you have no evidence to support your conjecture that the torpedo bay was getting power.

I do have evidence that many trainees did not stay at their stations when the ship came under attack and that Kirk looked right at the weapons console before asking Scotty about phaser power. It's alot easier for me to argue that Kirk made an informed decision based on the data that he had than you to argue that the torpedo bay could have been manned and armed.

We can't just apply the word conjecture willy-nilly, it has to fit the definition. That's speculation without proof. That's we're doing all this. To actually find out if Reliant is lesser or Greater based on the facts and using at few assumptions as possible.

Or he just as easily have decided from the station that there was obviously no power for torpedoes. That's conjecture, just like your statement assuming Trainee's had run amok s conjecture.

Conjecture is what Kirk's thinking. Fact is that many trainees broke and ran when the attack started.

SCOTT: He stayed at his post ...when the trainees ran.

Counting the seconds of phaser fire doesn't tell us how powerful the weapon was. We really can't draw any conclusions from duration of fire to fire power.

You wrote, "..in the nebula and Enterprise muster much more than a few shots but two torps..."

And I pointed out that is not accurate. On battery power in the nebula, Enterprise fires 1 second phaser fire which is 1/4 the amount of shots than when she fired in the initial battle. Now you're trying to alter your argument from number of shots to strength of weapon hits

If the Enterprise in the nebula on battery power had fired 4 or more seconds of phaser fire and 2 photons, you'd have a point. But as the facts stand, you don't.

You miss understand. I'm not saying that Enterprise can't use all it's emitters simultaneously. I'm sayng (based on your argument) Enterprise can't use full power to fire all it's phasers simultaneously...which is the point of multiple phaser arcs.

Or the point of multiple phaser arcs was to have as few blindspots as possible. I don't see anything wrong with how they have it set up. You can fire all power through a single bank of phasers or split up the power to engage multiple targets.

You have one image of Reliant's charge indicators that you believe means reduced power. Then you have a another image of the actual torpedo charge slide bars being pulled to zero and yet the effect is Stronger and more destructive than Reliant's restrained hit.

The two Enterprise torps happen to hit very volatile targets. The Reliant's torpedo pod and her already ignited warp nacelle. If the Enterprise torps had hit the top of Reliant's primary hull, we'd probably see no damage, IMO.

Reliant's torpedo hit somewhere near the top of the Enterprise near the front of the ship, based on the bridge viewer. The damage done by that torpedo severely impacted the bridge and took out auxiliary power at the same time. I'd argue that the Reliant's torpedo was at the same power level as the later Enterprise torpedoes. If Reliant hit the Enterprise's nacelle, it would have blown it off, IMO.

And of course, you don't have a way of saying that Reliant's torpedo is less powerful since you don't get to see an outside hit but we can tell how much damage it caused.

You're right of course but there is no indication of a time lapse. Cinematography applies cut scenes to purpose like external views of the ship. Here we simply move from one scene to another with the same characters. The only time editing that can be allowed logically is travel from the bridge his cabin.

That's what you are allowing.

I can't concur. I must point out the accuracy issue.
This dialogue doesn't say he 'just" finished getting sickbay ready." which would imply "as of this instance"

You say potato, I say he just finished getting the sickbay ready.

McCOY: Well, I've got the sick bay ready. Now will someone please tell me what's going on?

What did Kirk ask Uhura to tell McCoy?

KIRK: Uhura, have Doctor McCoy to join us in my quarters.
UHURA (OC): Aye sir.

So obviously McCoy was in progress of getting sick bay ready or decided to get it ready before going to Kirk's quarters - all independently of Kirk's request. That is time to be accounted for.

Or Reliant traveled significantly faster than warp 5
So the question is how fast does reliant have to go basically get to Enterprise in about an hour an a half?
------------------
Enterprise can cover a 1/3 of a light year in 12 hours at warp five.

Warp 5 is 213x c
Warp 7 is 656x c (that would be somewhere in the 4 hour range.
Warp 9 is 1516 so that's 7.11 x warp five. So about an hour an a half...

You do know that the above warp formula is not based on any observed data from TOS or the TOS movies?

If you want to make a guess at the "actual speed" of Warp 5 in TOS/TMP movie terms it can range from

Warp 8 = 5c or less ("Operation: Annihilate!", "Tomorrow is Yesterday", "The Voyage Home")
to
Warp 8 = 700,000c ("That Which Survives")
depending on various factors like gravity from nearby large objects (planets, stars, etc), space weather...

If it's conjecture I toss it.
I don't do assumptions.
I will never say: "sure why not'
or "one could argue."

It's either yes, no or unknown.

If you go by those rules, then

Toss "Reliant was firing at full power". You don't know.
Toss "Enterprise was firing at full power". You don't know.
Toss "I know how fast Warp 5 is". You don't know.
Toss "I know how fast impulse power is". You don't know.
Toss "Kirk could've used photons in the initial battle." You don't know.
I could keep going

See below.

-----------------------------
So, that's why looking at the initial Enterprise Strike and the final Enterprise Strike. If Enterprise had ONLY a few phaser shots on batteries then logically The final strike was not the Enterprise on Batteries in which Enterprise fires phasers and torpedoes.

In the nebula, Enterprise on battery power fired 1/4th number of shots than it did earlier in the initial battle. And she fired two photons. Logically, in the nebula battle on batteries, Enterprise expended less power than she did in the initial battle.

No amount of conjecture can over turn these facts.

Then get the facts straight

Only more information from another source.

Script blah blah

The dialogue got cut from the movie. Now you're trying to make an assumption that the movie as filmed intended to say something that ended up being cut from dialogue

 

[Saquist]

Wait a sec. Are you saying you didn't use the same figures from the same site and mixed and matched?

No, same site.
Wrong ship.
Site is posted.
Reliant is 18% less.

This is exactly what you wrote:

"But that's conjecture.
Kirk is the Key.
He wouldn't know this and received no particular belay of a torpedo order."

Then I'll say it is an assumption that "he wouldn't know." Thus withdrawn. It is not an assumption that there was no belay of torpedo order.

And you have no evidence to support your conjecture that the trainees could or did make it down to the torpedo bay.

I never made such a statement.

And you have no evidence to support your conjecture that the torpedo bay was getting power.

I never made such a statement.

I do have evidence that many trainees did not stay at their stations when the ship came under attack and that Kirk looked right at the weapons console before asking Scotty about phaser power.

Irrelevant to the torpedo bay.

It's alot easier for me to argue that Kirk made an informed decision based on the data that he had than you to argue that the torpedo bay could have been manned and armed.

You set forth this scenario in an attempt to explain a contradiction in your argument. I don't have to make the argument because you're speculating.

You wrote, "..in the nebula and Enterprise muster much more than a few shots but two torps..."

And I pointed out that is not accurate. On battery power in the nebula, Enterprise fires 1 second phaser fire which is 1/4 the amount of shots than when she fired in the initial battle. Now you're trying to alter your argument from number of shots to strength of weapon hits

You're quoting out of context. 2 Torpedoes are definitely much more than a few shots (which is a quote from the initial attack) and a comparison of the final attack. The argument hasn't change because the facts remain the same. This duration of fire is your system of measuring fire power. It is not established that duration equals more power, that is merely the arbitrary understanding you've adopted. I've tried to understand and use it but when it comes down to it, it doesn't tell us how much power they had. Thus irrelevant to my counter argument.

Or the point of multiple phaser arcs was to have as few blindspots as possible. I don't see anything wrong with how they have it set up. You can fire all power through a single bank of phasers or split up the power to engage multiple targets.

Yes you could.
But engaging multiple targets means you've got shields up and multiple targets continue to divide your fire power. Which means your weapons aren't as effective otherwise against enemies that are typically similar matched.

The two Enterprise torps happen to hit very volatile targets. The Reliant's torpedo pod and her already ignited warp nacelle. If the Enterprise torps had hit the top of Reliant's primary hull, we'd probably see no damage, IMO.

Visual evidence confirms the first explosion was from the torpedo itself and it was catastrophic. There was only one secondary explosion and it was minor compared to the first. Secondary explosion did not destroy the pod the first did instantly.

Reliant's torpedo hit somewhere near the top of the Enterprise near the front of the ship, based on the bridge viewer.

That's an assumption:The viewer is just a camera and that could be anywhere. There is an actual flight plan Reliant is following. She passes to port of Enterprise and fires and makes a wide starboard turn away from Enterprise dropping to the rear and fires a torpedo with drawing to safe distance as it continues to circle back in front of Enterprise as the (60 Sec) window expires and then turns toward Enterprise who fires past Reliant's bridge at the aft section and Reliant passes over Enterprise's starboard bow.

Thus the scar on the underside of the Saucer is the torpedo impact region.

And of course, you don't have a way of saying that Reliant's torpedo is less powerful since you don't get to see an outside hit but we can tell how much damage it caused.

Yeah it took out the impulse engines.

That's what you are allowing.

Yessir.

You say potato,

Potato is what the word allows for. You added "just"

So obviously McCoy was in progress of getting sick bay ready or decided to get it ready before going to Kirk's quarters - all independently of Kirk's request. That is time to be accounted for.

That's an assumption.
Nothing is said to give us a time from of when Sickbay was made ready.

You do know that the above warp formula is not based on any observed data from TOS or the TOS movies?

Indeed. But it's all extraneous to this movie anyway.

Toss "Reliant was firing at full power". You don't know.

Status Quo

Toss "Enterprise was firing at full power". You don't know.

Exactly

Toss "I know how fast Warp 5 is". You don't know.

Exactly

Toss "I know how fast impulse power is". You don't know.

Not true. We are given that in TMP which is relevant to this design.

Toss "Kirk could've used photons in the initial battle." You don't know.
I could keep going

Which I never said, but you got the hang of it.
A proper syllogism makes use of these facts to determine a logical deduction.

In the nebula, Enterprise on battery power fired 1/4th number of shots than it did earlier in the initial battle.

Actually it's half. Enterprise fired 2 shots in the opening battle.

And she fired two photons. Logically, in the nebula battle on batteries, Enterprise expended less power than she did in the initial battle.

That's fallacy because we don't know how much power each shot was and we don't know how much each torpedo cost in power either. You're assuming. What we do know is that under battery power in the first battle torpedoes weren't an option displaying an inability.

Then get the facts straight

In order to do that the number of assumptions must be reduced. You can't make up your own system of power measurement either nor can we indulge in speculation as a proper rebuttal.

Only more information from another source.

Sources is what good debating is all about. Conjecture and assumptions are what they are not about.

The dialogue got cut from the movie. Now you're trying to make an assumption that the movie as filmed intended to say something that ended up being cut from dialogue

Yes....and it is definitely a step up from your assumptions. It's missing information. Cut movie dialogue>conjecture. And it removes the inclination to entertain conjecture on the initial battle and why Kirk doesn't use torps. (you take that option every time) less be saddled with an weaker argument.

Remember:"I'll tell you though, this discussion has given me a greater appreciation for the production crew's thinking that went into the space battle. "~blssdwlf

So you only have appreciation for the production crew's thinking when it agrees with your own? This extract highlights just how much thought they put into the power situation in this movie. Amazingly it's become the plot device. It's more important to me that it finally answers a contentious problem than is is for proving you wrong. The implications are profound because I never thought TWOK was this well thought out.

You don't accepts scripts.
I don't accept TOS.
It's a deadlock.

 

[Saquist]

And the script goes into further detail about the Reliant's Warp capabilities.

KHAN
Goodbye, Admiral. Oh, and don't
count on Enterprise. She can't
move. My next act will be to blow
her out of the heavens.

KIRK
KHAN!

144 OMITTED 144

145 INT. RELIANT BRIDGE 145

Khan closes his eyes in voluptuous satisfaction.
Joachim enters and Khan looks at him.

KHAN
Well?

JOACHIM
Warp drive still inoperative. All
other systems should be restored
shortly.

So these scenes tell us that this is the reason that Khan was looking for Enterprise and that Reliant's Warp drive was inoperative but all the other systems were restored. Which means I was wrong about Reliant being able to leave but correct in saying Reliant's phasers and warp drive weren't conditionally operational to one another.

Since Spock says that Reliant out guns Enteprise on Partial Main Power and Enterprise definitely has more "guns" than Reliant then fire power has either been established for Reliant being stronger than Enterprise with or without main power or that Reliant has main power fully restored which defeats Enterprise's partial main power.

 

[blssdwlf]

Can you show us your calculations?

I only did the calculations you did and got a mere 9% like yourself. So the impression I got was that Reliant's scaling maybe off, so we'll go through those equations now to find out how close or how off I am.

David Schmidt gives a length of 240 meters
G2K says 243.
Litteral CAD Says 237.4617 at beam of 140.3870

Now we apply a proportion
(assuming G2K's Volumetric are good light wave models)
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html


G2K's Miranda 243 Volume of 217,770
CAD's 237 and a volume of x

Cross multiply:217,770 x 237
Cross multiply 243 x X

51611490 = 243x
Answer for x = 212,392.96296296296296296296296296 cubic Meters.

That's 5,377.0370370370370370370370371 LESS than estimated.
-----------------------

Constitition II is marked on G2K's site as 261,590 cubic meters. Reliant's new figure 212,392.9629 and the DIFFERENCE 49,197.0371 LESS than Than Enterprise.

Why did you resize G2K's volume for the Miranda? From your post, it sounds like you used a different source to calculate out the Miranda's length based on the other source's beam and then multiplied it against G2K's original number. Since G2K doesn't post up the beam of the Miranda on his site, had it occurred to you that his model might already have a beam of 140m and you are resizing it even smaller?

FWIW, I went ahead and did a fast low-poly build* out of the two ships and got similar results as G2K.

*The Reliant model I ended up using a base from the ST Blueprint site and then had to adjust by screen matching to the movie and reference pics to get a more accurate build. The refit Enterprise is from Doug Drexler's site of the screen accurate CG model built for the TMP Director's cut.

The Reliant without nacelles, warp pylons, rollbars, impulse engine and torpedo pod comes in at 188,639 m3. The Enterprise without nacelles and warp pylons comes in at 189466 m3. That's well within 10% before nacelles and warp pylons come into play.

I never made such a statement.
I never made such a statement.
Irrelevant to the torpedo bay.
You set forth this scenario in an attempt to explain a contradiction in your argument. I don't have to make the argument because you're speculating.

Enterprise didn't even fire one torpedo against Reliant on battery power. That's a lack of logic on the part of the commander under your premise. If they could have fired two torps and do that damage then why did they chose the phasers? Your argument in favor of battery power has to be well thought out. Do we really want take the option as Kirk as an idiot to support the battery power claim?

When you made this statement, did you think about the implications?

The trainees would need to successfully make it down to the torpedo bay (and that the trainees didn't panic and run to where ever they ran off to.) Someone's got to lift the grates and lower the photons.

The torpedo bay would need to be getting power.

That's speculation on your part. When you made your argument that torpedoes could have been used in the first battle, you've also set forward these items that need to be checked for it to happen. Or as you would say, we're deadlocked again

Now as a fact, Kirk did look right at the weapons stations when he asked Scotty about phaser power. And looked at the torpedo status panel.

If you can't pull the images directly - top two rows.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=36&page=7

You're quoting out of context. 2 Torpedoes are definitely much more than a few shots (which is a quote from the initial attack) and a comparison of the final attack.

You mean you assume that firing 2 torpedoes use more energy than a 4 second firing of battery-powered phasers?

We have no indication what the energy cost is for firing a photon torpedo other than 2 torps + 1s phaser fire doesn't completely kill the batteries.

Yes you could.
But engaging multiple targets means you've got shields up and multiple targets continue to divide your fire power. Which means your weapons aren't as effective otherwise against enemies that are typically similar matched.

Now we're just getting into differences in combat philosophies. If I'm facing multiple (similarly matched to me) opponents, I want to concentrate all my firepower on one target at a time. If I can pump all the ship's available power into one phaser bank, so much the easier. The extra banks are there in case the target is more maneuverable and for redundancy

Visual evidence confirms the first explosion was from the torpedo itself and it was catastrophic. There was only one secondary explosion and it was minor compared to the first. Secondary explosion did not destroy the pod the first did instantly.

We're going to disagree on the torpedo pod hit. When Enterprise's photon hit the torpedo pod, there was no immediate massive explosion. The pod expanded from the inside and then you see it light up and then very massive explosion afterwards. And in the end, the pod was still there, just blown up from the inside.

That's an assumption:The viewer is just a camera and that could be anywhere. There is an actual flight plan Reliant is following. She passes to port of Enterprise and fires and makes a wide starboard turn away from Enterprise dropping to the rear and fires a torpedo with drawing to safe distance as it continues to circle back in front of Enterprise as the (60 Sec) window expires and then turns toward Enterprise who fires past Reliant's bridge at the aft section and Reliant passes over Enterprise's starboard bow.

Thus the scar on the underside of the Saucer is the torpedo impact region.

That's a possibility although the main viewer should have shown the torpedo trajectory going from down to up, not up to down and exploding from bottom to up.

Indeed. But it's all extraneous to this movie anyway.

Not really. We're given a timeframe to travel from the interception point to Regula 1. When you work the timeline, all other variables come into play, IMO.

That's fallacy because we don't know how much power each shot was and we don't know how much each torpedo cost in power either.

Just earlier, you were assuming that the cost of firing a torpedo was higher than firing phasers.

You're assuming. What we do know is that under battery power in the first battle torpedoes weren't an option displaying an inability.

And now you are assuming that torpedoes were not an option under battery power because they were running on batteries yet you don't factor in damage to ship and trainee crew availability.

In order to do that the number of assumptions must be reduced. You can't make up your own system of power measurement either nor can we indulge in speculation as a proper rebuttal.

Says the kettle.

Yes....and it is definitely a step up from your assumptions. It's missing information. Cut movie dialogue>conjecture.
...

Cut movie dialogue = not in movie.

Remember:"I'll tell you though, this discussion has given me a greater appreciation for the production crew's thinking that went into the space battle. "~blssdwlf

And I stand by that. The good production crew actually CUT that dialogue from the final product. Did it not occur to you that line was cut because someone in the production crew pointed out, "hey, we never put in anything before that to say we restored auxiliary power. maybe we can't use that line or try and re-write it?"

If you want to place your thinking to a script that is not even the final product, then by all means, knock yourself out. I won't challenge something that is not the movie which is what we were originally debating about (other than to point out that it wasn't in the movie )

 

[Saquist]

Why did you resize G2K's volume for the Miranda?

Yes, the length of the ship was wrong.

From your post, it sounds like you used a different source to calculate out the Miranda's length based on the other source's beam and then multiplied it against G2K's original number.

You have to read closely.
Based on the assumption that the Reliant has the same radius saucer as Enterprise "I" corrected the length of Reliant base on Computer Aided Drafting scaling.

Since G2K doesn't post up the beam of the Miranda on his site, had it occurred to you that his model might already have a beam of 140m and you are resizing it even smaller?

Negative.
Both ships will have the same beam.
Beam was decided by the precise length of Enterprise at 305 meters. The shape chosen was David Schmidts Constitution II and Miranda. (He tends to be more accurate than most.

The Reliant without nacelles, warp pylons, rollbars, impulse engine and torpedo pod comes in at 188,639 m3. The Enterprise without nacelles and warp pylons comes in at 189466 m3. That's well within 10% before nacelles and warp pylons come into play.

I used totals.
G2K's without nacelle estimates aren't helpful for displacement because he's discussing crew densities there for the most uninhabitable part of the ship are excluded. If you did as he did then you've created an error preventing you from determining any true displacement.

When you made this statement, did you think about the implications?

Indeed, I did.

The trainees would need to successfully make it down to the torpedo bay (and that the trainees didn't panic and run to where ever they ran off to.) Someone's got to lift the grates and lower the photons.

Been here done that...
You're creating a scenario that we don't know occurred.
-We don't know if there were people on duty or not.
-We don't know if that the gratings were ever pulled or not. Assuming they were not would be a fallacy of reasoning there by assuming that what hasn't been seen did not happen.

The torpedo bay would need to be getting power.

-We don't know that the torpedo bay was deprived of power.

That's speculation on your part. When you made your argument that torpedoes could have been used in the first battle, you've also set forward these items that need to be checked for it to happen. Or as you would say, we're deadlocked again

Negative:
Status Quo covers these as "existing conditions" until otherwise altered by dialogue or visual. Your argument sets forth the only contradiction and necessity to contest Enterprise's initial abilities.

The logical deduction is that they weren't available. (explanation not needed)
However the moment you put forth the argument that Enterprise was on battery power there is a schism between the two scenes that cannot be resolved with out unwarranted speculation. Thus one is inherently a weaker argument (logically).

You mean you assume that firing 2 torpedoes use more energy than a 4 second firing of battery-powered phasers?

We don't have to assume.

We have no indication what the energy cost is for firing a photon torpedo other than 2 torps + 1s phaser fire doesn't completely kill the batteries.

Premise ONE: Enterprise had a lack of power
Premise TWO: Phasers were the only weapon used in the first battle.

Conclusion: Therefore torpedoes cost more power to fire than a phaser.
It's deduction. If there is a flaw in the reasoning you'll have to find it.

Now we're just getting into differences in combat philosophies. If I'm facing multiple (similarly matched to me) opponents, I want to concentrate all my firepower on one target at a time. If I can pump all the ship's available power into one phaser bank, so much the easier. The extra banks are there in case the target is more maneuverable and for redundancy

No, I'm not talking combat philosophy. Just ratio
If you've got 18 phasers and 18 targets under your theory each phaser would have 1/18th the power it would normally have available from the warp engines because you assume the phasers can take all the power from them.

It's either a very effective weapon because it would essentially be a superweapon
Or it's a very flawed weapon because that means the warp engines aren't outputting much power.

The problem is that the episodes don't really match either consistently.

We're going to disagree on the torpedo pod hit. When Enterprise's photon hit the torpedo pod, there was no immediate massive explosion.[

Agreement isn't really necessary here.
Massive Explosion:

Spoiler: Pod Blow

The rear view confirms that the the rear of the pod (where the strike occurs) is reduced to slag and the front remains recognizable.

And the physics behind the explosion you suggest would have obliterated the Pod instead of leaving it intact.

That's a possibility although the main viewer should have shown the torpedo trajectory going from down to up, not up to down and exploding from bottom to up.

That is the only hiccup...

Not really. We're given a timeframe to travel from the interception point to Regula 1. When you work the timeline, all other variables come into play, IMO.

We're given a lmmited number of variables.
Working with the cut scenes like you did is pure guess work.
That's why I used a more straightforward method. Calculate the know distance warp 5 can cover in 12 hours and see if a greater speed can do the job in a 7th of the time. And it can. Thus conceivable.

What's not is that either ship made it back on impulse instead of warp. The movie doesn't show either ship at warp during the approach scenes.

And now you are assuming that torpedoes were not an option under battery power because they were running on batteries yet you don't factor in damage to ship and trainee crew availability.

Well I'm careful how I word it. That's why it's not an assumption. It's a deduced fact. Logically if Enterprise had the ability to fire torpedoes (as evidenced and effective as they were later) then they would have.

I cannot factor in damage that was not reported.
I cannot factor in a lack of crew that was not reported.

Says the kettle.

But the pot keeps taking me there...
I get drawn into these little scenarios of yours and I've been trying to stop but you really want to talk about these phantom crew and equipment failures that were never reported.

Cut movie dialogue = not in movie.

Neither is TOS but you've forwarded alot of that data so far despite contradictions to the effect that they are completely different designs inside and out.

And I stand by that. The good production crew actually CUT that dialogue from the final product. Did it not occur to you that line was cut because someone in the production crew pointed out, "hey, we never put in anything before that to say we restored auxiliary power. maybe we can't use that line or try and re-write it?"

You mean speculate on their intentions.
Why it was cut is not necessary to know unless there is a contradiction....in other words they wanted a different result. But the result is the same. It's just a shorter movie.

If you want to place your thinking to a script that is not even the final product, then by all means, knock yourself out. )

Indeed.
I need a logical reason to exclude it not an arbitrary reasoning. A contradiction or direct opposition.

According to all the sources considered. If Enterprise was outgunned while having mainpower and Reliant had only Impulse then Reliant IS indeed the powerful ship. (likely by a considerable amount)

However it's more likely that Reliant's Roll-bar Weapons are superior to Enterprises weapon's thus the "outgunned" and Both Reliant and Enterprise had main power in the nebula. While it's not conclusive logic has brought me this far.

 

[blssdwlf]

Why did you resize G2K's volume for the Miranda?

Yes, the length of the ship was wrong.

Negative.
Both ships will have the same beam.
Beam was decided by the precise length of Enterprise at 305 meters. The shape chosen was David Schmidts Constitution II and Miranda. (He tends to be more accurate than most.

You used G2K's numbers and you adjust his number down based on someone else's models. Did you ask G2K if his models were already beam matched? Do you have anything from his site that shows either way because the only things I see referenced is the *length* of the ships which do not tell you anything about their beams. There is no mention of David Schmidt, as far as I can tell.

You should either calculate the volume exclusively from Schmidt's models or confirm with G2K that this Miranda and Constitution-refit models are accurate before you start arbitrarily multiplying stuff.

If you did as he did then you've created an error preventing you from determining any true displacement.

I built the models out and did not use his models as a reference.

Premise ONE: Enterprise had a lack of power
Premise TWO: Phasers were the only weapon used in the first battle.

Conclusion: Therefore torpedoes cost more power to fire than a phaser.
It's deduction. If there is a flaw in the reasoning you'll have to find it.

Premise THREE: Two Torpedoes were used in the final strike along with a much shorter use of phasers.

Conclusion: 2 Torpedoes and a shorter burst of Phasers can still be used with battery power.

Again, you *assumed* that torpedoes should be available the first time around. In your assumption, you don't account for the crew and ship's status. Now didn't you say let's not make any more assumptions?

No, I'm not talking combat philosophy. Just ratio
If you've got 18 phasers and 18 targets under your theory each phaser would have 1/18th the power it would normally have available from the warp engines because you assume the phasers can take all the power from them.

That again is ignoring what I just said about preferring to fire all power at one target at a time. Different philosophies.

It's either a very effective weapon because it would essentially be a superweapon
Or it's a very flawed weapon because that means the warp engines aren't outputting much power.

It's only flawed when the captain decides to split it that way

The problem is that the episodes don't really match either consistently.

Which episodes don't match this?

Agreement isn't really necessary here.
Massive Explosion:

The rear view confirms that the the rear of the pod (where the strike occurs) is reduced to slag and the front remains recognizable.

What rear view? The filmed impact and explosion is only shown from the front, not rear. As far as I can tell, the hit detonated something in the torpedo pod which caused a large secondary explosion from within.

We get a rear view later and the rear is black and charred but we would have to assume either it was from the torpedo hit or from the secondary explosion.

Again, an assumption would be necessary and we're in disagreement on what we think happened.

And the physics behind the explosion you suggest would have obliterated the Pod instead of leaving it intact.

Why? Because you assume it would? You are assuming the explosion should be massive enough obliterate the pod from what data?

What's not is that either ship made it back on impulse instead of warp.

Well, the facts are that they ended up fighting only 11-12 hours away at impulse from Regula 1.

The movie doesn't show either ship at warp during the approach scenes.

So how fast was the Reliant going in that external shot prior to her slowing 1/2 impulse?

Logically if Enterprise had the ability to fire torpedoes (as evidenced and effective as they were later) then they would have.

Yes.

I cannot factor in damage that was not reported.
I cannot factor in a lack of crew that was not reported.

Then do not factor in "Full Power Phaser" settings for the Reliant when that was not reported.

Or that Torpedo power costs more than phaser power or battery power when that was not reported.

Or that the torpedo room was available because that was not reported. (Unless we count Kirk looking at the torpedo status monitor )

But the pot keeps taking me there...

Hey, don't hate the player, hate the game

Neither is TOS but you've forwarded alot of that data so far despite contradictions to the effect that they are completely different designs inside and out.

TOS has the advantage of being the filmed product. Cut dialogue from scripts is just that, cut dialogue that never made it to film. If you think you've got better evidence in a script that isn't an accurate version of the film, we're not even on common ground with the film anymore.

And I stand by that. The good production crew actually CUT that dialogue from the final product. Did it not occur to you that line was cut because someone in the production crew pointed out, "hey, we never put in anything before that to say we restored auxiliary power. maybe we can't use that line or try and re-write it?"

You mean speculate on their intentions.
Why it was cut is not necessary to know unless there is a contradiction....in other words they wanted a different result. But the result is the same. It's just a shorter movie.

You are assuming that it was cut for length. Nice.

If you want to place your thinking to a script that is not even the final product, then by all means, knock yourself out. )

Indeed.
I need a logical reason to exclude it not an arbitrary reasoning. A contradiction or direct opposition.

A logical reason to exclude it is that the cut dialogue isn't in the film. Obviously, YMMV.

According to all the sources considered. If Enterprise was outgunned while having mainpower and Reliant had only Impulse then Reliant IS indeed the powerful ship. (likely by a considerable amount)

"Partial Main Power" - From the movie

However it's more likely that Reliant's Roll-bar Weapons are superior to Enterprises weapon's thus the "outgunned" and Both Reliant and Enterprise had main power in the nebula. While it's not conclusive logic has brought me this far.

Is there dialogue that is in the movie that says Reliant's main power was restored for the nebula battle?

Here is another question for you Saquist - in TMP, Kirk was about to use the Enterprise's phasers to destroy an asteroid that was sucked into the wormhole they created. As we know, phaser power was cutoff and a torpedo was used instead.
So, do you think Reliant's phasers at the power settings that were used in the initial attack on the Enterprise in TWOK would've been able to destroy the asteroid?
Or would the low powered torpedoes in TWOK (by either side) been able to destroy the asteroid?

 

[Saquist]

You used G2K's numbers and you adjust his number down based on someone else's models.

No one's elses models were used.
The image I provided is 2D. It's only a picture not a 3D representation of any type.

Did you ask G2K if his models were already beam matched?

Doesn't matter. Enterprise's length is the only required varrible and it's been confirmed from quite some time. Length decides width of a determined shape automatically, that's why it's called scaling.

There is no mention of David Schmidt, as far as I can tell.

David Schmidt is on TrekBBS.
His cooperation with LCAR24 and others to create this database on cygnus x1
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/sd-constitution-ncc-1700-rebuild.php

I built the models out and did not use his models as a reference.

Regardless the error will remain if parts of the ship are excluded.

Again, you *assumed* that torpedoes should be available the first time around. In your assumption, you don't account for the crew and ship's status. Now didn't you say let's not make any more assumptions?

Negative:

What you interpret as assumption is in Fact Deduction. If it were assumption then I would have no facts from which to derive a logical conclusion.

Deduction a : the deriving of a conclusion by reasoning; specifically : inference in which the conclusion about particulars follows necessarily from general or universal premises


Assumption 1. A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof:

-You have no proof there was a crew issue to account for. You're assuming based on circumstantial evidence.
-You don't know the ships torpedo status, you're assuming from circumstantial evidence.

One is acceptable and one is not given the information we have.

That again is ignoring what I just said about preferring to fire all power at one target at a time. Different philosophies.

The philosophy isn't important.
The more systems that draw off main power thus reduces the power available in a standard Alert Scenario. So instead of 18th max power with shields and torps being charged too that's potentially 1/21 normal phaser power.

It's only flawed when the captain decides to split it that way

The flaw is in the design especially the concept that the engines can run all it's power through one weapon that implies a weak source of power.

Which episodes don't match this?

The Cage/Paradise Syndrome
Or even Balance of Power where the Enterprise is damaged by an old style nuclear warhead. So Enterprise is one episode shows the (supposed ability) to be able to slice a moon in half and the next cannot with stand a primitive atomic Device...

Yet in TUC we see Enterprise take 7 torp shots.

We get a rear view later and the rear is black and charred but we would have to assume either it was from the torpedo hit or from the secondary explosion.

A torpedo hit that was supposed to be near zero if you follow the console. But it isn't just black and chared it's decimated. They hull is massively breached in the aft section.

Why? Because you assume it would? You are assuming the explosion should be massive enough obliterate the pod from what data?

No assumption is necessary.
You have to learn the difference between assumption and deduction. Physics is a known varriable. If a explosion occured within and was essentially the SOLE reason of the destruction, given the size and violence of said explosion compression physics says there should be nothing left of the pod like a balloon popping. That didn't happen so it wasn't a majority internal explosion. The rear view (IN LATER SHOTS) shows that the entire aft section of the pod is disfigured and explosed to space almost all of the top and all of the back while views of the actual model shows the bottom and front remain mostly intact.

The evidence just doesn't fit your theory.

Well, the facts are that they ended up fighting only 11-12 hours away at impulse from Regula 1.

The movie says they are 12 hours and 43 minutes away from Regula and the last known speed was warp five....did you forget or are you changing your mind.

So how fast was the Reliant going in that external shot prior to her slowing 1/2 impulse?

Unknown but we can deduce full or 3/4's impulse.

Then do not factor in "Full Power Phaser" settings for the Reliant when that was not reported.

Condition was set by status quo.
You can contest status quo but in this case it was confirmed by similar damage Enterprise took on the torpedo tube which destroyed it.

Or that Torpedo power costs more than phaser power or battery power when that was not reported.

Properly deduced and conjecture doesn't overrule deduction.

Or that the torpedo room was available because that was not reported. (Unless we count Kirk looking at the torpedo status monitor )

Negative Proof Fallacy:
We can not deduce the torpedo room wasn't available simply because we have no report of that is was available.
(Status Quo) Available until specifically stated or properly deduced that it was not.

Hey, don't hate the player, hate the game

I've spent many years honing the art of deduction.
I've noticed that in others it doesn't come easily.
Ultimately just because I can deduce the logically doesn't mean that is exactly what happen but rather it is the strength of argument that counts. We may found out one day that Enterprise was stronger but that's new information. Just like a court of law I have to draw conclusions based on what we know. Drawing conclusions doesn't mean just stating the facts it's deduction based on the facts at hand.

TOS has the advantage of being the filmed product. Cut dialogue from scripts is just that, cut dialogue that never made it to film. If you think you've got better evidence in a script that isn't an accurate version of the film, we're not even on common ground with the film anymore.

You're talking about officialism which none of your speculations would fit so clearly the film product isn't a necessary prerequisite.

You are assuming that it was cut for length. Nice.

We know the movie was cut for length, the director has said so.

A logical reason to exclude it is that the cut dialogue isn't in the film. Obviously, YMMV.

Your reasonings MUST be consistent.
If what isn't in THIS film must be exuded then your entire argument based on TOS speeds, TOS use of phaser and warp power, TMP standard of warp power through the phasers must also be excluded, otherwise the exclusion is arbitrary and illogical.

"Partial Main Power" - From the movie

Precisely.

Is there dialogue that is in the movie that says Reliant's main power was restored for the nebula battle?

Status Quo.
The movie never said it was lost.
Not even the script says it was lost.

Here is another question for you Saquist - in TMP, Kirk was about to use the Enterprise's phasers to destroy an asteroid that was sucked into the wormhole they created. As we know, phaser power was cutoff and a torpedo was used instead.

So, do you think Reliant's phasers at the power settings that were used in the initial attack on the Enterprise in TWOK would've been able to destroy the asteroid?
Or would the low powered torpedoes in TWOK (by either side) been able to destroy the asteroid?

I've been over something similar in a Star Wars Trek Debate.
The asteroid mass was said by Illia.

Object is an asteroid, reading
mass point seven...

Assuming a relational mass to Enterprise Yes Reliant's phasers could reduce a Rock 70% Enterprise mass in a sustained burst. But a torpedo was clearly more effective than what we've seen phasers do in TWOK for taking out the asteroid.

But again...that's assuming that the FX crews meant the two scenes to be comparable. But if you're asking me does the phasers in TWOK look like they can blast that asteroid, then yes...however I think the burst (as shown from TWOK) would take a bit longer meaning not as instant as that torpedo hit. And concurrently that torpedo hit from Enterprise doesn't resemble the asteroid strike at all.

I like where you're going here though.