MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by nafeasonto, Jan 9, 2021.

  1. mdtauk

    mdtauk Commander Red Shirt

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    Dax always said things like "I used to be a man"
     
  2. Court_Vince

    Court_Vince Commander Red Shirt

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    They*
     
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  3. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Did I say that? Did you read *all* of my other posts, because I think I've made that clear *multiple* times.

    Bluntly or not, there's some truth to that, although when I say "secondary sexual characteristics", "tiddies" are only one element of that... "For females, secondary sex characteristics include relative lack of body hair, thicker hair on the head (in some cases), rounded hips/figure, a decreased ability to generate muscle mass at a fast rate, decreased upper body strength, breasts, ability to nurse children, a menstrual cycle, and increased body fat composition." Not all of those are observable in a Trek episode, of course. Voice and pronoun usage also plays into that.

    And you're absolutely correct, Star Trek *hasn't* been at the forefront of gender and/or sexual diversity (until, perhaps, now). And the current policies and guidelines *have* sufficed for many years. But, where you seem to get off track, is that we *do* realize things have changed, both in the real world and in Star Trek. And we also realize that our policies need to change to adapt to those changes. And they are changing. I'm here, talking to all of you about it, risking having my ass chewed off. :) I don't need to do this. I don't get *paid* to do this. I could just say "fuck it" and "fuck you"... but I'm not doing that.

    And again... I think we realized that in most cases, we have no on-screen confirmation of the genders assigned to most of the various characters, and that entered into the decision to remove gender from the sidebars.

    And please drop the hyperbole... nobody is demanding certification from anyone. All we're looking for is information that meets our current acceptable resource policy rules. Those rules *may* need to be changed, but that doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't mean it won't happen, though.
     
  4. mdtauk

    mdtauk Commander Red Shirt

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    corrected
     
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  5. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    A Joined Trill certainly could be addressed with they/them pronouns if that is how that person wants to be addressed. But both DS9 and DIS have made it pretty clear that Joined Trill can and do adopt gender identities other than non-binary. Jadzia Dax and Ezri Dax both used she/her pronouns (presumably they were cisgender women); Gray Tal was a trans man who used he/him pronouns; and Adira Tal is a nonbinary Joined Human who uses they/them pronouns. So Joined Trill seem to have the same range of gender identities as Humans.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  6. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Let's Fly Moderator

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    So that just shows an extremely poor understanding of Trills and humans. Hardly the people who should be deciding what is and isn’t canon. It’s utterly insane nonsense.
     
  7. Spike730

    Spike730 Captain Captain

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    But you could employ the same leniency shown in other articles right now.
     
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  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If you were a joined host, you have memories of standing up and peeing with a penis and sitting down making a mess with with lady parts.

    You'd have sexy memories of penetrating and being penetrated, although anyone in the the real world with an adventurous side can say that these days.

    The lives of the previous hosts can be a little confusing bumping around against the new normal.

    I imagine Ezri and Jadzia tried to pee standing up every now and then and ruined a bathroom or two.

    (Women can pee standing up, but there's a trick to it. It's not something you should try lackadaisically without forethought.)
     
  9. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Let's Fly Moderator

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    Someone referring to themselves as they/them means that they are non-binary. Saying that it hasn’t been confirmed in canon is like saying a character who refers to themselves as he/him isn’t a man because they never said they were a man. This is something that has a clear understanding now, it doesn’t need to be spelled out.
     
  10. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    And once that occurred... for probably the fifth time now... the sidebar data was changed to "Non-binary" and all pronouns were changed to they/them/their.

    OK, what don't you understand about this? Actors saying stuff is *not* an acceptable resource. Publicity releases from CBS or other production sources are *not* acceptable resources. Certain information from production staff like writers *are* valid, but we have yet to get that. We're doing the best we can with what we have. And before you say something like "your policies are stupid and they suck" or "change your damn policies" or anything like that, all of these policies were crafted and debated and argued over and revised and added to and deleted and whatever by a constantly changing community of VOLUNTEERS over the years. You get that last bit, right? We are all VOLUNTEERS. I spend, just me, probably 30-40 hours a week just on MA, and I have a full time job, and a family, and I love to hike, and watch a bit of Star Trek (and Mandalorian, and The Expanse, and other stuff) here and there, and I love to hike, and, oh, yeah, there's sleeping in there somewhere. MA is a community of VOLUNTEERS that work hard to bring all of you Trekkies a quality encyclopedia... for NO PAY... and there are over 50,000 pages that we have to monitor and keep updated. I'm not whining, I'm not making excuses... I just want you to understand what's what. I *do* understand that this subject is important to not just you, but many others. But you need to understand that I'm a cisgendered heterosexual white male, and for better or worse, that's the lens I'm viewing the world from (I can't speak for the other editors, obviously). That doesn't mean I can't learn, that doesn't mean I don't care, that doesn't mean I don't support you or get angry when someone marginalizes you... it just means that's the basis I'm starting with. I can never understand completely what it is to be trans, or gay, or black, or French, or female... 'cause I'm not any of those things. But I'm willing to listen and learn... and that's all I can do.
     
  11. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Close... gender (and a bunch of other variables) we're only added to the sidebar relatively recently, I think a couple of years ago, iirc.
     
  12. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Let's Fly Moderator

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    Minor nitpick, use trans man instead of transman. It shows that he is man who happens to be trans and not something separate from other men.
     
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  13. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    OK... I'm an idiot, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! :)

    Like I said, someone made that call early on, and I'd have to dig to find out why. I was before I came on board (in 2005). I can ask if you really want to know and aren't just trying to prove me wrong (like that's so hard to do... just ask my wife).
     
  14. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Edit made, and thank you for the correction.
     
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  15. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I don't think there was ever anything about 12 Great House... at least not on the Great House page. Until DIS aired, there wasn't a finite number, just a listing of the know Houses. Since DIS, it's listed as being 24 Great Houses total.
     
  16. Angry Fanboy

    Angry Fanboy Captain Captain

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    Fucking hell how is this even a thing!? :lol:

    If the sidebar has Picard listed as 'male' and Janeway as 'female' just stick Adira down as 'non-binary' if that's how they want to be known! What harm is it doing? Will society as we know it come crashing down because we acknowledge that a secondary character in Star Trek Discovery doesn't fit into the categories we've used up to now?

    Things change. Just gotta roll with it sometimes!
     
  17. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I can't make that call... it'd have to be a consensus on MA. You're certainly most welcome to posit that on the talk page, though, and it could be brought up for a discussion and vote.
     
  18. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    OMFG... that's exactly what it was. <smh>
     
  19. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Huh??
     
  20. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021