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Mass of the Constitution class Enterprise?

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DSG2k, please dial back some of the personal stuff. Thanks. Let's get back to discussing the possible masses for the ship.

Why
Tell
Me?

Per the FAQ, "Note, however, that screaming "non-canon!" by itself shouldn't carry extra weight, unless a canonical source contradicts a non-canonical one."

Frankly, the nearly-a-million line should end the argument. One could go on discussing explicitly-non-canon masses until blue in the face and it would be all good. :bolian:

But in any case, I note this is the second time in the thread that someone receiving Shaw's ire has also received a warning. There may be more history I'm unaware of having just ventured back in to the board after a long absence, but I think after this thread concludes I'll go back to not coming.

Besides, this isn't the first time I've found people around here who like to freak out when they hear 'canon'. Seems there's a specific sort that fits in.

That part of the FAQ is generally correct, but nobody here is screaming "non-canon!" You keep inferring in your posts that canon is some official, infallible doctrine that outstrips anything else, and it isn't. Nor is it equatable with the whole of Star Trek, as you seem to be doing. Canon is simply what the PTB (the studio) recognize as an official source. They've screwed up things canonically on many occasions.

You weren't warned, you were friendlied. I'll admit I'm confused by your bizarre assertions that rejecting a canon statistic somehow equates to hating Trek.

Personally I'm not the best at math, so I can't really contribute to these sorts of technical discussions. But I do agree with Vance that there's a lot of stupid mixed in, because it's easier to make stuff that looks cool sometimes than to make that stuff seem scientifically plausible. Sometimes the studio, writers, etc. make stuff a lot more complicated than it should be, as I feel Okuda did with his TNG era registries. While some of them are relatively consistent with each other, the fact that most were pulled out of the blue only muddles the whole system.
 
Per the FAQ, "Note, however, that screaming "non-canon!" by itself shouldn't carry extra weight, unless a canonical source contradicts a non-canonical one."
That part of the FAQ is generally correct, but nobody here is screaming "non-canon!"

But per the local FAQ, the canon is the supreme arbiter in the event of contradiction. If I were shouting "non-canon!" as we discussed Rihannsu technical data then I'd be a total ass.

But if someone takes Duane's work as factual and tries to apply it to the "Balance of Terror" ship in clear contradiction to what is seen on-screen, then my pointing out that the idea is based on the non-canon and is contradicted by on-screen evidence ought to render the idea moot.

(And sure, the person could go on pondering their idea publicly, but if they try to declare "this is the way it is!" then they are being a total ass. Hence my taking issue in this thread. Well, that and the attack pattern of obfuscation and intentional intellectual inexactitudes.)

I'll admit I'm confused by your bizarre assertions that rejecting a canon statistic somehow equates to hating Trek.

I find it bizarre that you'd suggest that is my position. That's like saying we nuked Hiroshima because Emperor Hirohito had a sword. Yes, he did in fact have one, but that statement ignores the entire constellation of facts and chain of events, save one.

As I told Masao:

"That's silly.

But, if you walk in and see some guy who has expended the effort of numerous posts talking about how "stupid" Star Trek technical data from all the various shows was, saying "fuck the canon", attacking the show and claiming that Roddenberry was being "pissy" and on all sorts of drugs everytime he disagreed with the guy's pet theory (except for a brief period in '73-'75 when GR was apparently clean and lucid) . . .

. . . well, what conclusion would you draw? It would seem pretty clear to me he doesn't like Trek, and he's sharing his dislike on a Trek board. I mean, why even bother feigning an interest in the show if you're going to ignore its representation of itself (indeed, saying 'fuck its representation of itself'), declaring it stupid and with a creator who was clearly on crack whenever he wrote something you didn't like?"

You keep inferring in your posts that canon is some official, infallible doctrine that outstrips anything else, and it isn't.

Then remove that line from your local FAQ, if indeed it is invalid.

Nor is it equatable with the whole of Star Trek, as you seem to be doing.

Why not?

Canon is simply what the PTB (the studio) recognize as an official source. They've screwed up things canonically on many occasions.

And the canon changed as a result. If it was an accident without contradiction or correction elsewhere, then it is Trek fact. If it was intentional, it was a retcon. And if it was a clear error, then it was an error and is ignored.

I don't understand why there's this idea fomented around here that reason has to go out the window as soon as canon is mentioned. It is simply a responsible, fact-centric way of looking at Trek as representative of itself.
 
That said, from a lurker's perspective it seems like the recent Vance and DSG2k argument mostly stems from their difference in definition of 'canon.' Vance regards canon as the materials created for use in creation of the show. DSG2k uses the CBS-Paramount definition of canon (those things said or shown on screen excepted the Animateds.) True?

I use the objective third-party canon as defined by the owners and creators of Star Trek, in which Star Trek, a television entertainment entity, has a continuity (its 'reality') defined by the televised live-action episodes.

In the final analysis, nothing else is Star Trek beyond that core narrative. The rest is simply licensed material or fan-fiction based on the Star Trek universe, using its names and images to tell disparate stories.

Because of past encounters with those who would seek to ignore Star Wars 'reality' if it counters their whims, I expended more than a little effort in deriving the correct interpretation of disparate statements on the Star Wars canon . . . this research culminated in an expansive page on the matter (presently housed at CanonWars), and my conclusions (shared by SW continuity experts such as Nathan Butler) have been proven correct by the statements of George Lucas and others over the past three or four years.

Not coincidentally, the same groups of folks I encountered who would seek to ignore Star Wars 'reality' also sought to ignore Star Trek 'reality'. And so it was that the same rigor and persistence was brought to bear on the Star Trek canon question. . . even down to tracing the ownership of Trek from Desilu to Paramount's various owners to the current split-stewardship mess. And thus was born a similarly expansive page at CanonWars, with my original research now being used by others interested in the topic.

Canon is neither bludgeon nor scalpel. It is not a weapon at all. It is the basis of discussion, an objective 'reality', the round table at which discussion begins.

By rejecting the concept of canon, one relegates the fans to an absence of fact, which is abhorrent to me. Further, seeing the concept of canon attacked by any means necessary is particularly offensive to me, not because it is the concept of canon being attacked but because of how the game's being played.

Seriously . . . we're all here typing away on TrekBBS. That basically means we are all riding the proverbial short bus. Is it really necessary to lie and obfuscate to try to get a better seat on the bus? It's not like the view's likely to get better.

I just don't tolerate that sort of thing very well. Intellectual dishonesty meant to muddy and cloud the clear waters of fact really pisses me off, and I do not have the patience to put up with it.

As I posted the last time I was at TrekBBS and anti-canonites started flipping out on me:

"We both agree that people can and should have their own subjective canon. However, the notion that fans should apply this subjective view in the company of other fans while discussing Trek is absurd. You participate in other forums . . . how many times have you seen threads degrade into discussions of canon? Can you even begin to count them?

Do you really think that's only a TrekBBS phenomenon? Do you really think that's only a Star Trek phenomenon?

And do you really think that there would be any improvement if there was no canon for people to fall back on? It would serve as an end to discussion. There are posters here at TrekBBS who reject much of the live-action Trek we've seen. How could you possibly have a thoughtful discussion with someone about, say, the Borg when you get some guy saying "well, I don't think they exist" or "they never came to the Federation, because I reject everything after "Q Who?"" or even "well, in my fanfic I established . . . "?

This is the very reason that religious groups, Sherlock Holmes fans, and a whole lot of other fan groups and producers thereof trouble themselves to make canon policies to begin with. (The idea even appears in soap opera fan pages . . . a group more likely to be female than the male-centric list above.)

Now I agree that the idea of a canon policy . . . itself a uniting influence . . . can be taken too far when people seem bent on meddling with one's personal canon. However, I'm not attempting to meddle with your personal choices about what you want to accept. My purpose with the canon page and with my messages in this thread has been to clarify what that third-party uniting influence actually says we're uniting towards.

And regarding my page, thanks to some subjectivists who believe what they want to believe while claiming they are speaking objectively, I'm having to be damned careful about it, too. That's the very reason I popped up in this thread to ask for clarification in the first place.

Your gross misunderstanding of me notwithstanding, I intend to continue pursuing that goal as I see fit."

Good day.
 
Seriously . . . we're all here typing away on TrekBBS. That basically means we are all riding the proverbial short bus. Is it really necessary to lie and obfuscate to try to get a better seat on the bus? It's not like the view's likely to get better.

:rommie:
 
...then my pointing out that the idea is based on the non-canon and is contradicted by on-screen evidence ought to render the idea moot.
Sure sounds like you have declared yourself the thought police. And anyone who doesn't follow your strict ideas of what is and is not Trek should be stoned, burned and/or drawn-n-quartered for having differing views from you.

That seems pretty extreme to me.

And sure, the person could go on pondering their idea publicly, but if they try to declare "this is the way it is!" then they are being a total ass.
Sure sounds like you are describing yourself there. :eek: Most of us were willing to look at other ideas before you jumped in (I'm not even a strict 190,000 ton person... I'm still looking at the subject with an open mind).

I'll admit I'm confused by your bizarre assertions that rejecting a canon statistic somehow equates to hating Trek.
...

But, if you walk in and see some guy who has expended the effort of numerous posts talking about how "stupid" Star Trek technical data from all the various shows was, saying "fuck the canon", attacking the show and claiming that Roddenberry was being "pissy" and on all sorts of drugs everytime he disagreed with the guy's pet theory (except for a brief period in '73-'75 when GR was apparently clean and lucid) .
Please provide a quote of me saying anything negative about the other shows in this thread. Please provide a quote of me saying "fuck the canon" (or using the term fuck anywhere). Please provide a quote of me saying anything about Roddenberry being on drugs.

You said:
"Shaw continues this hatred of Trek"
And I'm still wondering how not agreeing with you constitutes a hatred of Trek?

Then remove that line from your local FAQ, if indeed it is invalid.
To date I have never seen anyone else attempt to use the FAQ as some legal document in order to censer the opinions of others. While an interesting tactic, it is no more conducive to a civil discussion than your I win stance taken earlier.

However, I'm not attempting to meddle with your personal choices about what you want to accept. My purpose with the canon page and with my messages in this thread has been to clarify what that third-party uniting influence actually says we're uniting towards.
Funny, because everything you've done in this thread would sound to me like you want to be the last, final word on this subject. Well, you have a web page where you can have the last word... why not just take a stand there and ignore the rest of us?

I'm sure that you might be able to create a cult of people following you based on this canon stuff (and it seems to be your motivation), but for many of us here the discussion of Trek tech revolves around the premises of how might this work, how could this work, and what were the people behind the scenes thinking when they thought up this stuff.

Needless to say, heavy handed canon people would be best staying out of this discussion... specially if their only purpose is to stop discussions like this from continuing.

But I'll give you credit... you've done a good job stopping the discussion of the mass of the Enterprise by trying to stop others from having any say at all. Well done. :techman:
 
Sure sounds like you have declared yourself the thought police.

Do you have any idea how long it took me to find these jack-boots? I didn't even know what jack-boots were. I just knew I couldn't be the thought police if I wasn't a jack-booted thug.

And anyone who doesn't follow your strict ideas of what is and is not Trek should be stoned, burned and/or drawn-n-quartered for having differing views from you.

That seems pretty extreme to me.

To you that sounds extreme. To me that sounds like Tuesday.

(Waterboarding Wednesday is my favorite, though.)

And sure, the person could go on pondering their idea publicly, but if they try to declare "this is the way it is!" then they are being a total ass.
Sure sounds like you are describing yourself there.

This would be cute except you took it so clearly out of context. But I think you know that. Here it is again:

"
But per the local FAQ, the canon is the supreme arbiter in the event of contradiction. If I were shouting "non-canon!" as we discussed Rihannsu technical data then I'd be a total ass.

But if someone takes Duane's work as factual and tries to apply it to the "Balance of Terror" ship in clear contradiction to what is seen on-screen, then my pointing out that the idea is based on the non-canon and is contradicted by on-screen evidence ought to render the idea moot.

(And sure, the person could go on pondering their idea publicly, but if they try to declare "this is the way it is!" then they are being a total ass. Hence my taking issue in this thread. Well, that and the attack pattern of obfuscation and intentional intellectual inexactitudes.)​
"

So guess who the aforementioned person is who keeps not only pondering their non-canon idea publicly, but is also screaming "this is the way it is"?

Please provide a quote of me saying "fuck the canon"

You were, rather obviously, not the one being quoted.

You said: "Shaw continues this hatred of Trek"

You were tagging on with the one demonstrating it.

And I'm still wondering how not agreeing with you constitutes a hatred of Trek?

You guys really like to pretend I said that, don't you? Was there a memo or something? Because my initial statements were quite clear, and even if you somehow misunderstood that then my response to Masao was even more clear.

To date I have never seen anyone else attempt to use the FAQ as some legal document in order to censer the opinions of others.

Ooh, yay, I'm a censor now, too! Soon I'll be taking this show on the road, heading over to Trek Lit to burn books. Do we have a children's forum? I haven't kicked babies in a couple of months and I'm missing it.

Funny, because everything you've done in this thread would sound to me like you want to be the last, final word on this subject.

The canon is the final word, per logic and per the FAQ. I just happen to be the one championing them today while others are literally or figuratively saying fuck 'em.

But I'll give you credit... you've done a good job stopping the discussion of the mass of the Enterprise by trying to stop others from having any say at all.

:lol:

I'm not the one who turned this into a thread about me. Though I have seen several posts that have been the ones primarily sending us toward that ever-so-boring topic, with bowls of feigned mockery thrown in.

Cases in point: 1 2 3, et cetera.

However, I did help with the evolution toward a thread about canon, yessir.

Speaking of, can we all finally acknowledge that nearly a million metric tonnes is the canon figure, whether or not you agree with it?

(Don't disagree with me. I'm setting up ElectroShock Saturdays next. Verily, the sky shall grow dim with smoke from the electrified testicles of the heathen unbeliever! Zap-zap to the infidels!)

:p
 
So guess who the aforementioned person is who keeps not only pondering their non-canon idea publicly...
Like I said, thought police... you want people to stop discussing non-canon ideas publicly. I'm sure that book burning is next (and I mean literally, you most likely would want too burn all Trek related literature as public displays of non-canon ideas).

... but is also screaming "this is the way it is"?
You're the only person screaming "this is the way it is".

I'm not the one who turned this into a thread about me.
Sure you did. You weren't here to champion canon, you were here to promote your non-canon Volumetrics as if it were canon. And then you went on to tell all of us how (in your missionary role) you brought the good word of canon to the heathens of Star Wars, which makes you supremely qualified to decide who does and does not have the right to share their ideas publicly.

But in the end, you have proven your own character here. You are a perfect example of why some people shouldn't be given too much rope (and small children plastic bags). :wtf:



What were we talking about again? Mass of something or other. :shifty: I forget. :p ;)
Well, if the thread ever evolves past the name calling and censorship phase it is going through, I promised earlier to share more of my thoughts on the topic.

But there is no point in throwing them out in this environment. :eek:
 



And here I was thinking he just didn't see how he was coming off to others... WOW! :eek:

With that, I'm going to take my gargantuan butt out of this thread.
 
Actually, Shaw, I think you have a lot to contribute to the main point of the thread itself. Just put the guy on ignore and continue with a more reasoned 'Trek' response to the Constitution Class mass.
 
^^ I'll do the same then, just a question, what is exactly so wrong about 190.000 tons? again, I guess Jefferies and the other people knew about CVN 65 and that it was around 90.000 tons and also the largest military vessel at that time, Starship Enterprise is of course even bigger then that so add 100.000 tons and tadaa, we've got the 190.000 tons we hear about so much.

As for nacelles being massive, yes, but I assume they're talking about the size of those things compared to the rest of the ship in that way they are indeed massive, thinking about them that way will negate the need for them to be ultra dense/heavy.
 
The only really argument that I've ever seen against the 190,000MT figure was Scotty's line (which, unfortunately, is the basis for all of Okuda's numbers). I've never, at this point, really seen much of a reasoned argument for the Gigaton Mass Enterprise anywhere.

Arguments for lighter masses are generally based around 'materials have been getting lighter over time', though again there's nothing to back up that the materials used on the Enterprise really ARE lighter, particularly considering the punishment they're supposed to be taking.

The only other commonly-cited datapoint is FASA and the Spaceflight Chronology (which is related). FASA, for their starship combat game, used a different number (165,000MT), but that's only because there was some issues using anything from FJ's work, thanks to Star Fleet Battles.
 
Aridas, here I'd thought your both-right idea meant you finally grew up after your poor behavior at Flare and here in threads past, what with your similar anti-canon, anti-TNG, anti-Roddenberry claptrap.

Instead you're going worse. Not only are you derailing the thread even further, but you're doing so with links to:

1. The words of my vanquished foes in the Trek-Wars stuff, a group led by people who post their enemies' personal info online in the hopes they are harassed, with members who have harassed me and others at work and home, posted death threats over SW technology arguments against me and others (including SW authors).

2. Posts about people who are not me.

and

3. Posts of mine against the troll TWScott.

And on that basis you declare my points invalid? Is it any wonder why I have and must now continue to laugh at your illogic? You're a joke that isn't even funny.

In any case, that was all you had for argument. So, to borrow a phrase, "concession accepted".
 
The only really argument that I've ever seen against the 190,000MT figure was Scotty's line (which, unfortunately, is the basis for all of Okuda's numbers). I've never, at this point, really seen much of a reasoned argument for the Gigaton Mass Enterprise anywhere.

Arguments for lighter masses are generally based around 'materials have been getting lighter over time', though again there's nothing to back up that the materials used on the Enterprise really ARE lighter, particularly considering the punishment they're supposed to be taking.

The only other commonly-cited datapoint is FASA and the Spaceflight Chronology (which is related). FASA, for their starship combat game, used a different number (165,000MT), but that's only because there was some issues using anything from FJ's work, thanks to Star Fleet Battles.

Scotty is known to exagerate things a bit here and there. ;)

Also, 190.000 tons isn't even that light for a structure that size, the largest vessels we've ever build for real like the supertanker Jahre Viking which is the longest vessel ever at 458.4 meters/ 1504Ft has a mass of IIRC 120-140.000 tons including machines but without fuel and the like.
 
Here are the stats of the Jahre Viking/Knock Nevis:

Tonnage: 260,941 GT / 214,793 NT
Length
: 458.45 m (1,504.10 ft)
Beam: 68.8 m (225.72 ft)
Draft: 29.8 m (97.77 ft)
Capacity: 564,650 DWT

FWIW.
 
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