Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Christopher]

I explicitly stated the non-white males or women got the worst scripts from Marvel itself, and that's why they lost viewers.

I really don't understand why people think The Marvels or Wakanda Forever were bad. The Marvels underperformed because of the strike and the lack of advance publicity, not because of the story. It was actually quite a good movie that got a bum rap, and I gather it's performed well on streaming.

And I've argued extensively in the past about why Riri was not "tacked on" to WF but was absolutely the right character to motivate the story, and quite an appealing presence as well. (I've been quite pleased with all the female "Young Avengers" they've introduced -- Kamala, Kate, Cassie, America, and Riri have all been delightful.) If WF had any problems, it was due to the need to adjust to the loss of Chadwick Boseman, and that couldn't have been helped.

In fact, I think your thesis here is completely wrong -- the films I've liked least in the past two phases have been Multiverse of Madness and Deadpool and Wolverine, both of which had white male leads. (Although I'm not convinced D&W really counts as an MCU film -- it's more of a Fox-Marvel Universe film that ties into the MCU while remaining tangential to it.) I also thought Thor: Love and Thunder, while better than Ragnarok, was just kind of middle-of-the-road. As for television, the biggest disappointment has been Secret Invasion, but I thought Loki Season 2 was a mess, so that splits the difference.

 

[theenglish]

Resorting to lying now, are you? Where the fuck did I say that?
I explicitly stated the non-white males or women got the worst scripts from Marvel itself, and that's why they lost viewers.

EDIT: just for you if you missed it

What I said in reply to your post was this:

" It seems like no one wanted to see anything that didn't have a white male lead, unless the character was a male with the word "black" in his name."

I wasn't saying that you made any other editorial comments.

For reference, the specific piece of your post I was reacting to was this:

"Marvel fatigue" happens when old and new fans get fed up by being fed characters that not many people wanted to see - Ms Marvel, She-Hulk, Riri Williams, Shuri, Echo, Captain Falcon, etc.

 

[Jayson1]

They should have done a Captain Marvel movie where she goes bad, dark phoenix style for whatever reason, she's so powerful no one can stop her, intro: the X-Men, Rogue takes her down and saps her powers, its kind of like the comic books, it would attract all sorts of people whether they liked or disliked the character, and not taken a decade to introduce the X-Men. Definitely would have been better than The Marvels.

The biggest problem is that none of the movies after Endgame are building to anything or have any cohesive structure. They just..... exist.

Some of the movies made decent box office, but were still DISLIKED by the people who saw them, and then... they stopped paying to see more. Good box office doesn't mean squat.

To think any of it has to do with ethnicity or gender is very shallow thinking. Write good characters, make good movies. We don't care who stars in them if they are good.

I think the bigger issue is people just don't like Brie Lawson in the role. Some of it because of the actor but that wouldn't effect the casual fans who didn't show up for the sequel or even regular fans because GOD knows people have a long history of ignoring things about actors they don't like if they still love the characters they play. You can see in the second movie a effort to even lighten her up and make the character more likeable but it was to little to late by then. I also think Lawson is sort of like Portman in that she doesn't really like doing comic book stuff and would rather be doing serious stuff like 'The Room" that won her awards.

 

[Jayson1]

I really don't understand why people think The Marvels or Wakanda Forever were bad. The Marvels underperformed because of the strike and the lack of advance publicity, not because of the story. It was actually quite a good movie that got a bum rap, and I gather it's performed well on streaming.

And I've argued extensively in the past about why Riri was not "tacked on" to WF but was absolutely the right character to motivate the story, and quite an appealing presence as well. (I've been quite pleased with all the female "Young Avengers" they've introduced -- Kamala, Kate, Cassie, America, and Riri have all been delightful.) If WF had any problems, it was due to the need to adjust to the loss of Chadwick Boseman, and that couldn't have been helped.

In fact, I think your thesis here is completely wrong -- the films I've liked least in the past two phases have been Multiverse of Madness and Deadpool and Wolverine, both of which had white male leads. (Although I'm not convinced D&W really counts as an MCU film -- it's more of a Fox-Marvel Universe film that ties into the MCU while remaining tangential to it.) I also thought Thor: Love and Thunder, while better than Ragnarok, was just kind of middle-of-the-road. As for television, the biggest disappointment has been Secret Invasion, but I thought Loki Season 2 was a mess, so that splits the difference.

The Marvels only had one interesting character in MS Marvel and a especially bad villain. Plus I got a theory fans are getting tired of MCU stuff in space and want a return to the more grounded setting of Earth. Wakanda Forever is not bad. Just mediocre. Boseman and Jordan's absence is very much felt.

 

[Phoenix219]

I think the bigger issue is people just don't like Brie Lawson in the role. Some of it because of the actor but that wouldn't effect the casual fans who didn't show up for the sequel or even regular fans because GOD knows people have a long history of ignoring things about actors they don't like if they still love the characters they play. You can see in the second movie a effort to even lighten her up and make the character more likeable but it was to little to late by then. I also think Lawson is sort of like Portman in that she doesn't really like doing comic book stuff and would rather be doing serious stuff like 'The Room" that won her awards.

Thats why my idea could play up to the people that didn't like her AND the people that did. She could be very unlikeable, and already had people referring to her as The Annihilator in the existing movie. They could / could have played into that, and let her beat on a bunch of heroes, before Rogue gets her hands on her and puts her in the coma. You get a Rogue origin story, launch the X-Men, still get to show how bad ass Captain Marvel could have been and how super charged she was, and appeal to everyone at once. .

 

[theenglish]

I don't get that because I absolutely love Brie. I think the biggest issue against her as Captain Marvel was that she didn't really have much of a role in Endgame. That said, I would be in favor of Photon taking on the Captain Marvel role in the future movies.

 

[Christopher]

I think the biggest issue against her as Captain Marvel was that she didn't really have much of a role in Endgame.

Which was a consequence of Endgame being filmed first, so they didn't really know how her solo movie would develop her and had to keep it pretty basic. (Which makes it ironic that Endgame didn't even introduce or explain her when she showed up, just assuming that everyone would've already seen her solo movie.)

 

[Set Harth]

I think the biggest issue against her as Captain Marvel was that she didn't really have much of a role in Endgame.

Well, she did rescue Tony from space and destroy Thanos' spaceship, that's not nothing. She also played a relevant part in the battle over the gauntlet.

 

[Mudd]

Doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Theaters take thQuite eir cut as well. Generally, a 2 to 2.5x multiplier is used on box office returns to determine profitability. So, assuming Disney take home 50% of the box office, then their share of the returns currently stands at ~$165 million - more than $100 million short of the film's combined budget & marketing.

Breakeven territory is a long ways off (and exceedingly unlikely given the competition).

Quite a percentage of this kind of movie's total revenues come from sources other than big office receipts. How much that is varies.

 

[Jayson1]

Well, she did rescue Tony from space and destroy Thanos' spaceship, that's not nothing. She also played a relevant part in the battle over the gauntlet.

I don't much care for the character but when she flies in and destroys Thanos ship is one my favorite moments in the movie. A real "hell yeah!' moment. Which I guess goes hand in hand with how I feel about the character. Like seeing her in the action stuff but the rest of time not so much.

 

[Anwar]

Got bad ratings though. I am not insulting the show. I liked it. It's just wasn't a hit.

Neither was Breaking Bad when it started.

What's lazier is thinking they can put whatever character(s) in however bad of a script and people are gonna lap it up

It worked with Iron Man 2, Captain America 1, Thor 2, etc...

You're a forced contrarian, but that's fine.

It WAS better than those movies.

Dunno where the fuck you're getting that idea, most fans wanted a proper DS Vs Mordo story, but they jammed Scarlet Witch in it as a villain with the worst storyline ever.

No, as soon as they heard it was a multiverse story their big hope was "Oh, bring back Jackman and have Dr Strange merge the world together!" and were mad it didn't happen.

They didn't "Jam" in Scarlet Witch anymore than Ego was "Jammed in" as Star-Lord's Dad in Guardians 2. And the storyline was better than the slop we got in "Deadpool and Wolverine".

How much you wanna bet you are 100% wrong and I am 100% right?

She wasn't a favorite for a lead on her own. Even before WV the calls were for her show to just be an excuse to bring back Evan Peters as Quicksilver and Fassbender or McKellen as Magneto and have the show really be about them.

Argument for argument's sake. I explicitly stated about what the showrunner wanted, but they didn't care about the character.
As I said, argumet for argument's sake.

And like I said, her comics were hardly all about that.

Yes.

Then complain about him.

If someone can rewrite history and ignore the truth given to him on a golden platter, it's you. Bravo

I was there, you weren't.

Blade cancelled, Iron Heart dumped off, Wonder Man delayed.
If anything it's Forced non-White Male Supremacy that's crashed and burned.

Blade will be back, Ironheart isn't dumped off, and things get delayed all the time. Try harder with hiding your real complaints.

They should have done a Captain Marvel movie where she goes bad, dark phoenix style for whatever reason, she's so powerful no one can stop her, intro: the X-Men, Rogue takes her down and saps her powers, its kind of like the comic books, it would attract all sorts of people whether they liked or disliked the character, and not taken a decade to introduce the X-Men. Definitely would have been better than The Marvels.

So get rid of a powerful woman to make way for a secondary fanservice character. Wow.

This is why I'm grateful Jean Grey will be a central character in the MCU X-Men and not just a lust object for Logan. Finally correcting the old mistakes.

The biggest problem is that none of the movies after Endgame are building to anything or have any cohesive structure. They just..... exist.

So most of Phases 1 and 2

Some of the movies made decent box office, but were still DISLIKED by the people who saw them, and then... they stopped paying to see more. Good box office doesn't mean squat.

They weren't heavily disliked.

To think any of it has to do with ethnicity or gender is very shallow thinking. Write good characters, make good movies. We don't care who stars in them if they are good.

There was a negativity as soon as they saw there would be more women who weren't all secondaries that were underwritten and oversexed, like Natasha and Wanda usually were.

 

[theenglish]

Well, she did rescue Tony from space and destroy Thanos' spaceship, that's not nothing. She also played a relevant part in the battle over the gauntlet.

I should have been clearer. We don't get to see her as a character in Endgame. If she had been with the team the whole time, helping find the Infinity Stones and working with the team then I bet more people would have seen The Marvel's and the MCU wouldn't be in crisis right now. I was really disappointed that Carol didn't play a bigger role in Endgame because the Captain Marvel movie was marketed around this new character who would be in the upcoming Avengers movie.

 

[Jayson1]

I think she didn't have a bigger role in Endgame because fans in general didn't like the character. While it makes sense the main focus would be on the Phase 1 characters, especially Stark and Steve Rogers I do wonder if the screen time Nebula was given was going to go to her but when people turned on that character they replaced her with one fans did like. I mean Nebula is one of the few non-Phase 1 characters not taken with the snap and I wonder if that was always the plan.

 

[Christopher]

If she had been with the team the whole time, helping find the Infinity Stones and working with the team then I bet more people would have seen The Marvel's and the MCU wouldn't be in crisis right now.

That doesn't follow. Again, the main reason The Marvels suffered at the box office was the preceding actors' strike. Viewership for movies in general fell during that time because of the strike and the actors' unavailability to participate in the usual pre-release promotions and interviews. And according to Wikipedia, the movie has performed quite well in home video and streaming, generally being #1 or at least in the top five most popular films in its on-demand, home video, and streaming releases, so there's every reason to believe it would've performed well theatrically if conditions had been normal.

 

[Jayson1]

Do you really think Brie Lawson giving a bunch of interview would have helped promote the movie? All that would do is give the click bait sites constant fuel to tear the movie to shreds and when it gets out the movie isn't that good then it would be even more of a target because then it would be knocked in places outside or Nerdrotic and places of that sort.

I'm not surprised it did well on streaming. It's still a MCU movie. So of course people will check it out for free. Like lots of movies it seems the general idea with most of these days is to just save your money and time and just waiting a month and see it at home.

 

[Dee1891]

What happened to "Thunderbolts"?

 

[Nerys Myk]

What happened to "Thunderbolts"?

In theatres right now.

 

[Jayson1]

I guess Thunderbolts didn't make lots of money or did. Keep hearing conflict reports on that so not sure what to think. Looks like I good movie. I would go see it if I could walk better. I figure with things going as it is now then maybe in a year or two I can start going back to movie theaters. As long as my progress keeps progressing.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think she didn't have a bigger role in Endgame because fans in general didn't like the character.

Her movie was a success, right?

Captain Marvel grossed $426.8 million in the United States and Canada, and $701.6 million in other territories, for a worldwide total of $1.128 billion.[4] It had a worldwide opening of $456.7 million, the sixth-biggest of all time, and the biggest opening for a female-led film.[185] Deadline Hollywood estimated that the film had a total production and advertising cost of $300 million.[2] It is the fifth-highest-grossing film of 2019.[186] On April 2, 2019, the film crossed the $1 billion mark worldwide, becoming the first female-led superhero movie to do so,[187] as well as the seventh Marvel title, the 19th Disney film, and 38th film overall.[188] Deadline Hollywood calculated the film's net profit as $414 million, accounting for production budgets, marketing, talent participations, and other box office grosses and home media revenues placed it fifth on their list of 2019's "Most Valuable Blockbusters".

Audiences of the film polled by CinemaScore gave it an average grade of "A" on a scale of A+ to F, while PostTrak reported that 73% of filmgoers gave it a "definite recommend". 58% said it met their expectations, while 35% said it exceeded them. Unlike Wonder Woman, which was watched by more women than men, Captain Marvel's initial audience was 61% male, according to PostTrak.

 

[Jayson1]

Captain Marvel was a success but the character wasn't liked by most. I think it was a combination of the MCU was riding high and it was close to Endgame. I think that is why we didn't see much of her in other movies, despite talk at the time that she was going to be one of the big faces that sort of replace Stark and Rogers, then the sequel sort of I guess proved her unpopularity when it didn't make much money.