Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[eschaton]

I don't have high expectations for Ironheart. They're treating it similarly to Echo - holding it back from release for years, and now dropping a substantive portion (though admittedly not the entire thing) on a single day. Makes it feel like they were on the bubble of cutting it entirely. Also, I don't know how I feel about pairing up Riri and The Hood - thematically I feel like the more sci-fi and fantasy sides of the MCU work better when largely separated.

I hope I'm wrong however. I maintain Wakanda Forever was a messier film than it needed to be because the introduction of Riri felt shoehorned in order to build up hype for Ironheart (which has since been delayed). If the setup has mediocre payoff, it will make that element of the film feel weaker in retrospect.

 

[Jayson1]

To me it makes special no sense to make this show before War Machine show. The "Armour Wars" idea sounds interesting and also something people would actually want to see. Not only would it have War Machine but you could bring back Justin Hammer,Pepper Potts, Happy, Tony's daughter who should be the actual Iron Heart. The little kid from the 3rd movie who is maybe Iron Lad or something now. Even Captain America who should have gotten his battle tech from Stark Industries instead of Wakanda. One minute they are worried about their tech going out into the world and they are just going to give it to the guy who is America's biggest symbol. Not sure if that makes sense. The Winter soldier being a exception makes more story logic IMO.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

 Ironheart looks like a lot of fun and I can't wait to see it.

I am little surprised Don Cheadle doesn't appear to be involved at all (regardless the perpetual limbo state of Armor Wars). You'd think Tony's best friend and one of the earliest users of armor suit would want to reach out to Riri.

I don't have high expectations for Ironheart. They're treating it similarly to Echo - holding it back from release for years, and now dropping a substantive portion (though admittedly not the entire thing) on a single day.

The bold emphasis is wildly inaccurate. The show that's guilty of that, sort of, is Armor Wars as it keeps retooling, but that's certainly not the case for either Echo or Ironheart.

As for releasing the opening three episodes on one day, that is a model utilized by shows from The Handmaid's Tale and The Marvelous Maisel to Andor and Daredevil: Born Again.

 

[eschaton]

The bold emphasis is wildly inaccurate. The show that's guilty of that, sort of, is Armor Wars as it keeps retooling, but that's certainly not the case for either Echo or Ironheart.

I admit I was wrong about Echo. Initial filming wrapped August, 2022, with intent to release in mid-2023. However, post production went poorly, and it was kicked back about six months in the schedule.

But Ironheart? The initial filming sessions ended in November 2022, and the original intended release was supposed to be late 2023. Apparently it was retooled a lot, with additional reshoots in 2024. Still, the bulk of the series was completed almost three years ago, and it is around two years behind schedule!

Both shows would have worked better according to the original plan - particularly Ironheart, considering her introduction in Wakanda Forever was in 2022, and we've even seen a What If...? featuring her last year which was predicated on the idea we'd have already seen Ironheart by now.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Have no idea why they though Ironheart or Echo would work. Neither stars a big Star and neither did well in their setup roles in Black Panther 2 and Hawkeye.

Yet, Marvel Studios is determined to keep Ironheart moving forward. It will be interesting to see the shareholder response (followed by Marvel studios) if the named production fail.

That is why the shows I mentioned would have worked better, at least in terms of creating interest. Who knows if they would be done well. Vision,Wakanda,Captain Carter,Star Lord, second seasons with The Falcon now as Captain America and a second season of Hawkeye all make sense to me as far shows to make.

The point was that Captain America was intended to be a big screen character as part of the larger MCU; that is how both Rogers and Wilson were introduced and intended to be utilized. The D+ series was merely a side production to flesh out what was necessary for Wilson to become the next Cap. Its the comic book equivalent of the annual (at least from the Silver to Bronze Ages); that publication would be used for larger backstories, more fully detailed origins, etc., but the title character's "A" plots would carry on in the main title, or in this case, the movies. Cap is a fixture of the film's plots a a solo act and Avenger, so he is one of the few characters who thrives in the films as opposed to some D+ characters who do not have that kind presence or importance to the MCU's identity..

 

[eschaton]

I feel like Marvel completely, totally bungled everything regarding Sam's arc as Captain America.

1. Steve handed Sam the shield, which meant a formal "passing of the baton" story wasn't even needed, and we could have gone right into the next Captain America movie.
2. Still, the Falcon and the Winter Soldier was fine, except...it should have been a feature, not a Disney+ miniseries. I'd strip it down to focus on just a few plot threads (Isaiah Bradley, John Walker, etc.) which align with Sam's arc. Flag Smashers could still be there, but dialed back, with Walker becoming the true antagonist by the end of the movie.
3. Brave New World was a complete failure as a Captain America movie, as very little about it was rooted in Sam as a character (other than the inclusion of Bradley). You could just as easily see any number of surviving Avengers working as the lead - or see it as a true Avengers movie, which would have allowed Ruffalo's Hulk to actually appear in the movie meant to wrap up a lot of Hulk plot points.

 

[Avalon]

 Ironheart looks like a lot of fun and I can't wait to see it.

This. Looking forward to it.

 

[Tuskin38]

How long has X-Men Evolution been on Disney+? It's one of the highlights at the top of the page so I assume it popped up recently.

 

[Jayson1]

Yet, Marvel Studios is determined to keep Ironheart moving forward. It will be interesting to see the shareholder response (followed by Marvel studios) if the named production fail.



The point was that Captain America was intended to be a big screen character as part of the larger MCU; that is how both Rogers and Wilson were introduced and intended to be utilized. The D+ series was merely a side production to flesh out what was necessary for Wilson to become the next Cap. Its the comic book equivalent of the annual (at least from the Silver to Bronze Ages); that publication would be used for larger backstories, more fully detailed origins, etc., but the title character's "A" plots would carry on in the main title, or in this case, the movies. Cap is a fixture of the film's plots a a solo act and Avenger, so he is one of the few characters who thrives in the films as opposed to some D+ characters who do not have that kind presence or importance to the MCU's identity..

I think it makes sense to keep Wilson as character in the MCU as Captain America but the idea of giving him his own movie seemed flawed to me. A new title doesn't erase the fact that he was basically a side kick in most of his appearances and also Chris Evans is to much still the face of the character in peoples minds to truly move on this fast. Especially I think for those who just watch the movies and don't know the comics,

It's sort like when they were to quick to move on from Toby Maguire as Spider-Man. People were not ready for a new Spider-man at the time so Andrew Garfield didn't stand a chance. And he didn't have the issue of already being a established character who spent years playing second fiddle to MaGuire in the older movies.

 

[Anwar]

I think it makes sense to keep Wilson as character in the MCU as Captain America but the idea of giving him his own movie seemed flawed to me. A new title doesn't erase the fact that he was basically a side kick in most of his appearances and also Chris Evans is to much still the face of the character in peoples minds to truly move on this fast. Especially I think for those who just watch the movies and don't know the comics,

It's sort like when they were to quick to move on from Toby Maguire as Spider-Man. People were not ready for a new Spider-man at the time so Andrew Garfield didn't stand a chance. And he didn't have the issue of already being a established character who spent years playing second fiddle to MaGuire in the older movies.

That's like saying Wally West never should have been the Flash after Barry Allen in the comics

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I think it makes sense to keep Wilson as character in the MCU as Captain America but the idea of giving him his own movie seemed flawed to me. A new title doesn't erase the fact that he was basically a side kick in most of his appearances and also Chris Evans is to much still the face of the character in peoples minds to truly move on this fast.

How is it moving on too fast? In-universe, Steve Rogers took himself out of the present day to grow old with Peggy, leaving a natural void for a hero he felt the world will always need. In the real world, Evans wanted to leave the Cap role, so the stage was set for his replacement, which just about everyone knew was going to be Mackie in the Cap role.There was nothing too fast about his natural transition to the role of Captain America, the character Disney wanted as a movie hero.

It's sort like when they were to quick to move on from Toby Maguire as Spider-Man. People were not ready for a new Spider-man at the time so Andrew Garfield didn't stand a chance.

Maguire's Spider-Man was a separate production, so when that series reached its end, Sony wanted to create another series, despite many movie-goers feeling the Webb movie disrespected / stepped on the legacy of Raimi's films. The Cap case is radically different: one, the characters are part of the same film universe, and said film universe purposely set a natural course for the characters' evolution and destiny. In other words, Wilson becoming Cap was not the result of the idea being forced or dropped on the public "too soon" for their questionable perception.

 

[Jayson1]

That's like saying Wally West never should have been the Flash after Barry Allen in the comics

I don't see any reason why a Wally West movie couldn't work and considering the flop of the last Flash we saw with DC it would be much easier to do a Wally West Flash movie than the MCU could do a Wilson Captain America movie. Wally West would not be replacing a comic book movie icon character. He would I guess have to compete with the tv shows Flash in people eyes, but that's not a big obstacle IMO.

 

[Jayson1]

The reason it would be moving to fast is to many people Chris Evans is and will always be the one true Captain America. If you didn't read the comics he is literally the only Captain America they know. Replacing him is just as hard as it's going to be to find a new Wolverine or Iron Man someday. Heck their are still people who even a good Superman will never be in the same league as Christopher Reeve. I do think a new Captain America can work and even a new Sam Wilson but current Wilson is to much seen as a sidekick in peoples minds at this point and now also a tv character since they did the tv show.

IMO if they wanted to do a new Captain America they should have started from scratch sort by doing a movie about young Isiah Bradley. New character for the most part. You get to start off outside of the familiar modern day MCU setting by going back to the 1950's. Do a trilogy of movies about Bradley set in the past while letting current Captain America exist as supporting character in the MCU. Ideally you would find a way to someday do a movie were Bradley, Wilson and Rogers join forces in the same movie

 

[Turtletrekker]

Vincent D'onofrio and Charlie Cox react to the Ironheart trailer. I love that Charlie is wearing his Daredevil costume beneath his hoodie.

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[The Nth Doctor]

"Wicked!"

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The reason it would be moving to fast is to many people Chris Evans is and will always be the one true Captain America.

Rational audience members moved on when Evans moved on. They live in the reality where the actor wanted to divorce himself from the role, so that bucket of cold water allowed rational audience members to turn the page.

If you didn't read the comics he is literally the only Captain America they know. Replacing him is just as hard as it's going to be to find a new Wolverine or Iron Man someday.

James Bond actors were replaced in the EON Productions series, and even the weakest Bond actor--Roger Moore--found acceptance by some, hence the inherent longevity of the series when an actor was replaced.

The same applies to the MCU's Captain America.

IMO if they wanted to do a new Captain America they should have started from scratch sort by doing a movie about young Isiah Bradley. New character for the most part. You get to start off outside of the familiar modern day MCU setting by going back to the 1950's. Do a trilogy of movies about Bradley set in the past while letting current Captain America exist as supporting character in the MCU. Ideally you would find a way to someday do a movie were Bradley, Wilson and Rogers join forces in the same movie

Wilson is no longer a supporting character. The idea that anyone would still see him as a "sidekick" reveals their bias against Wilson being that character--as if he will never be "good enough" to be Captain America, yet they were soiling thei collective underwear when they thought Bucky picking up the shield in The First Avenger & Civil War was teasing his future as the next Cap. Nope--not a problem with Bucky (in-universe, a man who is psychologically unfit to be Cap), but Sam? He's a "sidekick" and a supporting character.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Rational audience members moved on when Evans moved on. They live in the reality where the actor wanted to divorce himself from the role, so that bucket of cold water allowed rational audience members to turn the page.




James Bond actors were replaced in the EON Productions series, and even the weakest Bond actor--Roger Moore--found acceptance by some, hence the inherent longevity of the series when an actor was replaced.

The same applies to the MCU's Captain America.




Wilson is no longer a supporting character. The idea that anyone would still see him as a "sidekick" reveals their bias against Wilson being that character--as if he will never be "good enough" to be Captain America, yet they were soiling thei collective underwear when they thought Bucky picking up the shield in The First Avenger & Civil War was teasing his future as the next Cap. Nope--not a problem with Bucky (in-universe, a man who is psychologically unfit to be Cap), but Sam? He's a "sidekick" and a supporting character.

I accepted Sam Wilson as Captain America the moment he was handed the Shield.

My personal wish was for him to be called Captain American Falcon to combine his old name and his new name.

But I understand why he was called "Captain America" and they kept "Falcon" as his side kick.

I do really like the new kid they got to play "Falcon"

 

[The Nth Doctor]

My personal wish was for him to be called Captain American Falcon to combine his old name and his new name.

That...would be a horrible name and an even worse superhero name.

 

[StarTrek1701]

Anyone hyped for FF4 yet?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes