Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Mage]

It didn't seem at all up in the air at the end of that film. It's just that TFATWS played its little game of pretending his Cap status was in jeopardy, but that was clearly a red herring. If nothing else, real-world political considerations would not have allowed him to be dumped from the Cap role.

Agreed. Honestly, it would have no sense at all for Sam to receive Cap's shield only to NOT become Captain America. That would have negated the whole set-up. Now, if Endgame had ended with Steve handing the shield to Sam AND Bucky, and ask them to find out who should be the new Captain America.... THEN you could say it was up in the air.

There was never ANY doubt that Sam would end up as full Cap at the end of the show.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It would, if it were an introduction at all. But it's not. It's a transformation of an existing character, just like WandaVision (where Wanda also gets a completely new costume, newish abilities and a narratively meaningful new codename).

Shang Chi, Yelena, Kamala, etc, have had post-Endgame introductions. Sam Wilson has not, no more than Wanda or Jane Foster or Shuri.

As the movies progressed, I doubt anyone was thinking Sam would eventually become Cap (I'm talking about regular moviegoers who know nothing about comic book stories). As long as Evans was in the role, Mackie was only thought to be the Falcon going forward. In fact, during Civil War, many fans were certain Bucky was going to be the next Cap, all because he briefly used the shield in the fight against Iron Man, which had much to do with a certain fan faction's grumbling as TFATWS unfolded that Bucky "deserved" to be the next Cap.

A total change in identity is a hard move--a full break from what was established (IOW, not comic-book Pym simply changing IDs from one shrinking/growing character to another, but its still the same man with largely the same views no matter the costume), and for Sam, taking on the "white" identity of Captain America (forcing him to deal with the world in ways the Falcon did not need to on screen) and making it his own was the full break away from his views and approach to life while being the Falcon. Wilson as a black man in the Cap role (recall his conversations with Isaiah Bradley on that topic) is effectively a different character.

 

[JD]

Yeah, I'm rather surprised he keeps jumping from MCU project to another. First the potential Shang-Chi sequel to one of the Avengers films to now the next Spidey film. I'm curious if we'll ever know the full story about how all of those changes occurred.

Regardless, I loved Shang-Chi and I look forward to seeing what he may potentially do with Spider-Man.

I think Avengers was always going to come out before Shang-Chi 2, so I'm assuming that was why he was announced as director of that instead of Shang-Chi 2. He left Avengers after it went into limbo over the whole Johnathan Majors drama, but I'm not sure why he's doing Spider-Man: Home____ 4 instead of Shang-Chi 2

While I agree that lack of Shang-Chi in other films and the lack of news on the sequel (aside from knowing it's still happening) is frustrating, I don't agree with the notion that he was ever intended to be on the same level as the Big Three. Some would argue that the lack of a proper Big Three in the Multiverse Saga demonstrates that it lacks focus and direction, but I'm actually glad they didn't try to recreate a new Big Three. They were lightning in a bottle (no pun intended) and I think it's better to expand beyond such a structure this time around.

That said, I'm willing to admit that perhaps the Multiverse Saga is perhaps spread out a bit too much, which is what lead to the lack of Shang-Chi (and others!) in other projects.

I think right now it feels like they're setting up Dr. Strange as one of their new major characters, and it I think they were possibly trying to put Captain Marvel in a similar position, but I don't know what they'll do with her after the failure of The Marvels. I'm not really sure who number 3 would be though, the only other character who's made crossover appearances is Wong, but he's just a supporting character.

Yeah, I felt Multiverse of Madness was very much a Sam Raimi film in style. I've always felt people exaggerate when they insist MCU movies have a uniform style. I think they're cherrypicking the similarities and ignoring the clear differences. The goal of the MCU has always been to offer a diversity of genres and styles, the same way Marvel Comics always had a wide range of different genres, styles, authorial and artistic voices, etc. They want different directors and showrunners to bring their own distinctive styles to the work. For instance, Shang-Chi feels more like a wuxia movie to me than a Marvel superhero movie.

I think they've done a pretty good job of letting the director's voices come through in their movies, even when they are doing it within the MCU framework.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

As the movies progressed, I doubt anyone was thinking Sam would eventually become Cap (I'm talking about regular moviegoers who know nothing about comic book stories). As long as Evans was in the role, Mackie was only thought to be the Falcon going forward. In fact, during Civil War, many fans were certain Bucky was going to be the next Cap, all because he briefly used the shield in the fight against Iron Man, which had much to do with a certain fan faction's grumbling as TFATWS unfolded that Bucky "deserved" to be the next Cap.

A total change in identity is a hard move--a full break from what was established (IOW, not comic-book Pym simply changing IDs from one shrinking/growing character to another, but its still the same man with largely the same views no matter the costume), and for Sam, taking on the "white" identity of Captain America (forcing him to deal with the world in ways the Falcon did not need to on screen) and making it his own was the full break away from his views and approach to life while being the Falcon. Wilson as a black man in the Cap role (recall his conversations with Isaiah Bradley on that topic) is effectively a different character.

No, he isn't. He's a changed character. A deeper character than he used to be. A more important character than he used to be.

He's still not a new character in any way (and most certainly not a completely different person than he used to be - if there's any returning character who qualifies for that description, it's Monica Rambeau, not Sam).

 

[Jayson1]

The problem with Sam Wilson as a character is I feel like he has peaked in terms of popularity. People like the character. They might even feel he is a good Captain America. But it's hard to look at him at this point as being something more than a support character. Plus Chris Evans was so good he is basically going to be the template for a very long time when it comes to Captain America. Some of these character have become so popular that finding replacements for them will be hard. To point where it likely makes more sense to bring in characters we haven't seen in the MCU and even that will have issues. I mean good luck finding someone to win people over as the next Wolverine. That will be a hard sell due to just how iconic and loved Hugh Jackman is in the role.

 

[Tosk]

Finding another person to play a Wolverine that will be popular is like trying to find another popular Batman actor. It's literally impossible.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Jackman will undoubtedly be a hard act to follow but so too were Sean Connery, Christopher Reeve, William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy (the latter 2 of whom originated their iconic characters) and many, many others. They’re all big shoes to fill but there are plenty of other actors out there with big feet.

 

[Christopher]

I think they've done a pretty good job of letting the director's voices come through in their movies, even when they are doing it within the MCU framework.

Yeah. Too many people want to reduce everything to simplistic, all-or-nothing binaries -- either the movies are individual or they're all the same. You get it exactly right here -- it's both. A framework can still allow room for individuality.

 

[Jayson1]

Finding another person to play a Wolverine that will be popular is like trying to find another popular Batman actor. It's literally impossible.

One difference is we haven't had a Batman played by the same guy for like 19 years. I would also argue on the movie side Christopher Reeve is still the definitive Superman. Had a little more luck on tv with Dean Cain. Tom Welling and Tyler Hoechlin.

 

[Anwar]

The problem with Sam Wilson as a character is I feel like he has peaked in terms of popularity. People like the character. They might even feel he is a good Captain America. But it's hard to look at him at this point as being something more than a support character. Plus Chris Evans was so good he is basically going to be the template for a very long time when it comes to Captain America. Some of these character have become so popular that finding replacements for them will be hard. To point where it likely makes more sense to bring in characters we haven't seen in the MCU and even that will have issues. I mean good luck finding someone to win people over as the next Wolverine. That will be a hard sell due to just how iconic and loved Hugh Jackman is in the role.

That's like saying Captain Picard couldn't ever be a good Starfleet Captain next to Kirk.

Sam isn't playing a recast Steve Rogers, his character isn't Steve and Captain America is a mantle passed beyond more than 1 person

 

[Rich Watson]

Jonathan Majors has found a new gig.

Jonathan Majors Is a “Famous Monster” — And Signing Autographs at $140 a Pop

Cast out of Hollywood's A-list following a domestic assault conviction, the 'Creed III' and 'Lovecraft Country' actor will be manning a booth at a monster-movie convention in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, this coming weekend.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[Jayson1]

That's like saying Captain Picard couldn't ever be a good Starfleet Captain next to Kirk.

Sam isn't playing a recast Steve Rogers, his character isn't Steve and Captain America is a mantle passed beyond more than 1 person

I am not saying Sam Wilson will be a bad Captain America. More like I am saying it's hard to see him being as iconic in the role as Evans version of Captain America. Which means that even though he still can be used very well in the MCU we can't really expect him to sort of be part of a big 3 or big two are are basically the faces of the MCU. To uses a sports metaphor, he is still a role player as opposed to being one of the big stars.

 

[Mage]

I would also argue on the movie side Christopher Reeve is still the definitive Superman.

You realise that you've just opened a floodgate to yet another topic invaded by the useless 'Best Superman' debate?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The problem with Sam Wilson as a character is I feel like he has peaked in terms of popularity. People like the character. They might even feel he is a good Captain America. But it's hard to look at him at this point as being something more than a support character.

TFATWS was designed to have Sam remake himself into a new hero, thus bringing an end to his "support character" identity. He was no longer a sidekick, but completely transformed himself into the American superhero icon. With Rogers long dead (and not competing to be a second, active Cap), Sam was reborn as Captain America, who should be the leading face of the MCU going forward, for all that costumed half and most importantly--the struggle he's faced (and might continue to face) in order to become this new identity in a world where he will be rejected or not taken at face value (when they did so with Rogers).

Plus Chris Evans was so good he is basically going to be the template for a very long time when it comes to Captain America. Some of these character have become so popular that finding replacements for them will be hard.

The flaw in your statement is that Mackie is not stepping into the role of Steve Rogers (in the way various actors have been cast as Bond). His Sam Wilson has taken on the Cap role, remaking him into a new character with his own motivations, which one would hope the audience can understand.

I am not saying Sam Wilson will be a bad Captain America. More like I am saying it's hard to see him being as iconic in the role as Evans version of Captain America. Which means that even though he still can be used very well in the MCU we can't really expect him to sort of be part of a big 3 or big two are are basically the faces of the MCU. To uses a sports metaphor, he is still a role player as opposed to being one of the big stars.

This is the long-worn argument similar to those made by Right Wing zealots in social media--that for some reason, Sam can wear the Cap costume, but there's just something about him which forever relegates him to "B-list" player who should never be seen as one of the "Big Three".
Of course, this ignores the fact that when the MCU began, each character--Captain America, Iron Man and Thor--were not (in film recognition terms) established "big" / lead characters, but through franchise runner choice, they were allowed to grow into that position, yet some seem to operate from a few things, such as selective memory about where the so-called "Big Three" were at the dawn of the MCU, and how Sam Wilson is more recognized at the point of his taking on the Cap role than his predecessors were.

In the end, it does nt matter, but Disney will be setting their own firestorm if the next Captain America is not the leader he should be, but is shoved in any sort of supportive role to characters who are in no way as recognized, or important to the legacy of one of the flagship Marvel characters.

 

[fireproof78]

I am not saying Sam Wilson will be a bad Captain America. More like I am saying it's hard to see him being as iconic in the role as Evans version of Captain America. Which means that even though he still can be used very well in the MCU we can't really expect him to sort of be part of a big 3 or big two are are basically the faces of the MCU. To uses a sports metaphor, he is still a role player as opposed to being one of the big stars.

Who cares if he is as iconic? Go back to the first Captain America and Evans' casting. Would anyone be saying he'd end up as he did after Fantastic 4?

This is a nonsensical argument premised only on a "What if?" scenario that ignores all the other times such factors have worked for Marvel, much less other franchises, like Star Trek and Picard becoming as iconic as Kirk as a captain.

 

[Jayson1]

TFATWS was designed to have Sam remake himself into a new hero, thus bringing an end to his "support character" identity. He was no longer a sidekick, but completely transformed himself into the American superhero icon. With Rogers long dead (and not competing to be a second, active Cap), Sam was reborn as Captain America, who should be the leading face of the MCU going forward, for all that costumed half and most importantly--the struggle he's faced (and might continue to face) in order to become this new identity in a world where he will be rejected or not taken at face value (when they did so with Rogers).




The flaw in your statement is that Mackie is not stepping into the role of Steve Rogers (in the way various actors have been cast as Bond). His Sam Wilson has taken on the Cap role, remaking him into a new character with his own motivations, which one would hope the audience can understand.



This is the long-worn argument similar to those made by Right Wing zealots in social media--that for some reason, Sam can wear the Cap costume, but there's just something about him which forever relegates him to "B-list" player who should never be seen as one of the "Big Three".
Of course, this ignores the fact that when the MCU began, each character--Captain America, Iron Man and Thor--were not (in film recognition terms) established "big" / lead characters, bjeut through franchise runner choice, they were allowed to grow into that position, yet some seem to operate from a few things, such as selective memory about where the so-called "Big Three" were at the dawn of the MCU, and how Sam Wilson is more recognized at the point of his taking on the Cap role than his predecessors were.

In the end, it does nt matter, but Disney will be setting their own firestorm if the next Captain America is not the leader he should be, but is shoved in any sort of supportive role to characters who are in no way as recognized, or important to the legacy of one of the flagship Marvel characters.

I Don't mind him being Captain America. I even see him maybe filling the role of Nick Fury provided they don't go with Rhodes. But their is more to a popular character than the story role they are cast in. I mean was Iron Man really going to ever become a great character if Robert Downey Jr didn't elevate the character to something special?

Same with the Guardians characters. We know who Sam is because we have seen him already in several movies and tv shows. We like what we see. But that doesn't mean we are going to like him more just because he is now Captain America. Sometimes a character just has that special je ne sais quoi and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they are just seen as good or sometimes bad.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I Don't mind him being Captain America. I even see him maybe filling the role of Nick Fury provided they don't go with Rhodes. But their is more to a popular character than the story role they are cast in. I mean was Iron Man really going to ever become a great character if Robert Downey Jr didn't elevate the character to something special?

There's that selective memory at work again; as I pointed out, Iron Man (and the rest of the "Big Three") were allowed to grow into that "something special" position. Sorry, but RDJ did not hit the ground running fully establishing Iron Man as a completely appealing character in that first film. He needed a sequel, then added to a group film to build on his character. That fact of character development history is not extended to Mackie as Cap, who--to this date--does not have a even one solo film released yet where the same kind of building and exposure can be set into motion.

Same with the Guardians characters. We know who Sam is because we have seen him already in several movies and tv shows. We like what we see. But that doesn't mean we are going to like him more just because he is now Captain America. Sometimes a character just has that special je ne sais quoi and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they are just seen as good or sometimes bad.

The same applied to RDJ, Evans and Hemsworth when they starred in their first MCU films. There were no guarantees. More to the point, Evans and his character became more appealing in the sequel, which allowed the actor to work his way into a character facing greater personal challenges, thus making his take on the character more appealing. It is helpful to not think like a fanboy looking at the overall effect of numerous films where characters and the actors behind them enjoyed time to develop and have an impact on the larger MCU narratives.

 

[Jayson1]

There's that selective memory at work again; as I pointed out, Iron Man (and the rest of the "Big Three") were allowed to grow into that "something special" position. Sorry, but RDJ did not hit the ground running fully establishing Iron Man as a completely appealing character in that first film. He needed a sequel, then added to a group film to build on his character. That fact of character development history is not extended to Mackie as Cap, who--to this date--does not have a even one solo film released yet where the same kind of building and exposure can be set into motion.



The same applied to RDJ, Evans and Hemsworth when they starred in their first MCU films. There were no guarantees. More to the point, Evans and his character became more appealing in the sequel, which allowed the actor to work his way into a character facing greater personal challenges, thus making his take on the character more appealing. It is helpful to not think like a fanboy looking at the overall effect of numerous films where characters and the actors behind them enjoyed time to develop and have an impact on the larger MCU narratives.

This is where I disagree. I think Downey Jr as Iron Man was great from the very start. The success of that movie and the success of the first Captain America movie is what made "Avengers" the big hit it was and was really what created the MCU. Deadpool joked about being Marvel Jesus but it really was Downey Jr and the first "Iron Man" movie that really was where it all began. Not only that but it pretty much put a end to the idea of the dark and gritty Nolan approach as being the big template for future comic book movies. A hard lesson the DCU learned first hand.

 

[Set Harth]

I only wanted sequels because of how psyched I was by Iron Man 1.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

This is where I disagree. I think Downey Jr as Iron Man was great from the very start. The success of that movie and the success of the first Captain America movie is what made "Avengers" the big hit it was and was really what created the MCU. Deadpool joked about being Marvel Jesus but it really was Downey Jr and the first "Iron Man" movie that really was where it all began. Not only that but it pretty much put a end to the idea of the dark and gritty Nolan approach as being the big template for future comic book movies. A hard lesson the DCU learned first hand.

Iron Man was were it all began but it was still only a shadow of the success that came later.

And the first Captain America did ok but it wasn't even particularly well liked at the time. It's probably the lowest grossing MCU movie that isn't an outright bomb (it even made 80m less than Thor 1 despite the Thor films pretty famously not being widely liked until Ragnarok). And it was still common even as late as 2012 to hear comments or jokes about how no one really loves Captain America and he's nobody's favorite Avenger.