Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Relayer1]

If they want to cross over, they've got four real options as fat as I can see :

1. Alternate realities with a portal (maybe the new FF origin could give them an 'in').

2. Another time travel reset like DoFP, amalgamating the X and MCU continuities.

3. Hand waving with 'they were there all the time and the mistrust has abated'.

4. Do a Spidey and reboot the Xmen in the MCU.

I suppose better minds than mine could think up other options, but I think that pretty much covers things.

 

[Reverend]

Well, the movies can have an end point to it all because they're movies and not a serial comic. So that still doesn't mean the X-Men story doesn't fit the MCU.

It does if Marvel wants to keep the gravy train moving. Individual films can have end points (see: Iron Man 3) but the world has to keep going and solving the fundamental conflict that's at the heart of X-Men would be a massive deal.

That aside, the reality is that they're already moving forward with the idea that the Inhumans are basically going to stand in for mutants. Since they're exactly two TV episodes into that and are at least three and a half years away from a dedicated movie, they're clearly not even thinking about getting anywhere near resolving that.

If it were even possible, the only way to integrate X-Men at this point would be a from scratch reboot, spinning off from 'Inhumans'.

One way to do it would be to set the whole thing 50-100 years from now, so everything in the current MCU is ancient history and the X-Men have more elbow room to exist in a world more or less to themselves.

 

[The Old Mixer]

If Marvel and Fox were to someday make a deal (which I don't see happening anytime soon), I don't think they're going to give a rat's patootie about how well the established continuities fit together...they'll throw in a dash of expository handwaving and roll with it.

and Daredevil are feared.

Is Daredevil feared by the general (non-criminal) public these days? Do they even know that he's superhuman? (He used to keep his blindness and super-senses close to the chest and let people think that he was sighted.)

 

[bbjeg]

If Marvel and Fox were to someday make a deal (which I don't see happening anytime soon), I don't think they're going to give a rat's patootie about how well the established continuities fit together...they'll throw in a dash of expository handwaving and roll with it.

In the comics, Scarlet Witch was capable of creating the House of M universe, and she's already in the MCU and X-Men universes as well. They can easily blame a merge on her.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I'm doubtful that any merger would involve a continuation of the same universe for the X-Men and Fantastic Four (although it's not as clear cut as Sony where they had the added benefit of being pissed off at Andrew Garfield). They might still use the same actors (for X-Men), but I doubt they'll worry about the continuity. Maybe they'll just make it vague, but I doubt they'll go to any trouble to create some in-universe explanation for the difference.

I really do think they'd just reboot it since the X-Men are currently going with period pieces while the Marvel universe is not.

 

[N-121973]

If Marvel and Fox were to someday make a deal (which I don't see happening anytime soon), I don't think they're going to give a rat's patootie about how well the established continuities fit together...they'll throw in a dash of expository handwaving and roll with it.

Oh I don't know, if Disney offered a slice of the new Star Wars films to Fox they might pony up with FF and X-Men.

 

[USS Pertinax]

Shot me, but i really like the idea of the x Universe being completely it's own thing. Because superhero conventions are less important you can tell more mature stories in the whole universe.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

A couple of questions, coming from just having watched the Winter Soldier again:

1. What was Hydra-Shield's endgame. If they used the helicarriers to take out people it had profiled as ptential threats using machine guns or whatever, the streets would be very bloody.. the people standing next to the potential threats would be horrified, and no one would like Hydra-Shield. What are they going to do after their act of terrorism eclipses 9/11?

2. This might sound like a dumb question, but is the USB drive that Fury gives to Cap the same one the BW took Lumerian Star, or was it a different one, and, if it was, was additional data put on it? (by the way the area of the Lumerian Star where Cap an that dude were fighting didn't seem to match where BW was on the ship but that's where Cap appeared once that door was opened).

3. So Fury has a short meeting with Cap, and then thinks that Insight should be delayed. This change in his character happens in a single scene that lasts 30 seconds.. and its a transition that any decent human being would have at some point. Hydra-Shield, with that Zoloff brain running it, might have it's own goals, but it's run by human beings. But after a single moment where Fury decided to delay the operation, they get all but-hurt and try to kill him? I actually can understand that, but they should have known that there are people that work for them, and they should have expected it to happen.

Note: I might dump on this movie.. and I am disappointed in the third act, but there are parts that I love. My favorite scene is the Fury chase scene. I imagine his vehicle works with a similar system to Jarvis. They really worked that "comic book" aspect into a pretty gritty scene quite well.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Regarding 1, I think it's a misconception that they would continue the pretense of world security after their first action. That was done to get the funding for the project. Once they've taken out their targets, though, no one would be in a position to resist them.

Regarding 3, keep in mind (based on Agents of SHIELD) that they didn't just take down Fury, they took down all of SHIELD leadership in pretty much the exact same time (or, more accurately, the next day). I don't think they took him out just because he was asking questions, but because they had a timetable to keep.

 

[The Old Mixer]

"Fear will keep the local yokels in line...fear of these helicarriers."

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Regarding 1, I think it's a misconception that they would continue the pretense of world security after their first action. That was done to get the funding for the project. Once they've taken out their targets, though, no one would be in a position to resist them.

You may be right. But if you are, it's a shame really. The reason is that the idea that Hydra is in fact Shield and that the heroes have been working for the bad guys is very intriguing. That is a really nifty idea that should be allowed to play out, both under the surface, and over the course of the large events in the MCU. I like it. But because Captain America The Winter Soldier is a movie and a movie has expectations about structure, about climaxes, about action scenes, they are basically saying (if you are correct) that Hydra are just mustache twirlers with a plan to take ova da weeerrllld!! MWAHAHAHA and no one will be able to resist us once we we execute a million citizens MWAHAHAHA.

My point is that Hydra's ultimate end-game, such as there is one, isn't worthy of the "shield is Hydra" thing, or the idea that government is using people's voting records, etc to determine who the targets should be (this would ostensibly be a clever allegory for the Patriot Act). Instead the filmmakers have used some awesome notions, themes, and ideas all to serve a story that feels no more thought-out than Pinky and The Brain's attempts to take over!

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The thing is, they used all that stuff you were talking about through being SHIELD for years. It's just that this was the endgame, not a step in the process. The whole PATRIOT Act analogy is that society placed a huge amount of trust in the government to do the right thing in funding and developing these hellicarriers. It turned out the "government" in this case was corrupted by Hydra who planned to use them for their own ends. So the themes are there regardless.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Yes I respect the fact that the themes are there.. but it was obvious.. even you listen to the commentary.. that the writers were trying so desperately to put those themes together in the movie.. to make them work in service of the movie. The writers mention on numerous occasions that they were having trouble with the third act. I always wondered why the third act from this move can't be more like the scene at the overpass.. a big bold action scene set in real environments instead of on a bunch of helicarriers?

That aside, I'm willing to go with it, because I respect that they tried their darnedest to incorporate the Patriot Act Analogy, and the Hydra moles into the the story, the narrative and the action. I respect that.. but their plan doesn't hold up. What does hydra do to control the crowds, the uproar, or the military planes or missiles that will strike them down. You could argue that our military is all Hydra but that is a little hard to believe, and even it was, the other governments would not hesitate to strike down the helicarriers preemptively.

The fact that's interesting about this is Hydra is taking actions based on it's knowledge of hnuman nature.. the Patriot Act coupled with Asimov's notion of psychohistory.. (this is an interesting notion) but somewhere along the line, Hydra would have to have realized that their very orginaztion has humans in it (Zoloff can't run it by itself) and if Hydra knows as much about human nature as it claims to know, they know that most decent human beings (not just Fury) would have second guesses about the ethics of insight.

The Patriot Act was concocted as a knee-jerk bit of legislation after 9/11, and even it's name was established to curry support and quell opposition. The Act was so big that the lawmakers who signed it in law hadn't even read all of it - but of course if they didn't vote for it, that could be construed as unpatriotic especially after 9/11.

But if 9/11 was the "occasion" for the Patriot Act (even if it had been planned for a long time prior to 9/11) what is the "occasion" for Project Insight that would allow it to actually rally the support it needed to after people saw it in action?? This being the MCU, one would assume it was Stark Industries unauthorized weapons' manufacturing (which is possible) 0or the alien invasion of New York (though that seems really disconnected thematically from the themes in this film).

I want to know why the writers' though of such awesome notions and then they had to push them, into such a traditionally structured narrative that isn't the equal of the themes they were talking about. It's kind of like why TNG's Unification" wasn't as good as it should have been.. we were promised a story that could have well changed the status quo of all of Star trek at the time, and the in the end we just get a poorly thought out plan by Sela that was hardly worthy of the themes the episode was trying to convey, and as a result the episode just kind of ends with nothing changing..

Things did change at the end of Winter solder. Ia actually enjoyed the ending montage, But the actual plan still seems shallow and poorly thought-out.

 

[DWF]

The thing is, they used all that stuff you were talking about through being SHIELD for years. It's just that this was the endgame, not a step in the process. The whole PATRIOT Act analogy is that society placed a huge amount of trust in the government to do the right thing in funding and developing these hellicarriers. It turned out the "government" in this case was corrupted by Hydra who planned to use them for their own ends. So the themes are there regardless.

The technology for the helicarriers in TWS came from Stark and sHIELD had been dealingwith planetary threats for years, but the events in the Thor and Avengers movies convince Fury that more needed to be done. Truthfully without Stark's unwitting help there'd be no Hydra master plan in TWS.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

That's true, but ShiELD was a big oppressive organization well before that point. Just look at Agents of SHIELD season one. There were standard operating procedures everyone just took for granted that were ridiculously oppressive. Those carrying it out thought there were benign intentions, but they kept a secret list of everyone with powers and imposed rules and restrictions on them even though they had done nothing wrong. Those who were unwilling to follow those rules or were unable to control their powers were locked up or destroyed. All that is independent of the actions of Tony Stark.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Let's take a scaled-down version of Hydra's plan.

You work for Hydra, and you believe in it.

The person next to you (we'll call her Colleen) isva potential threat. In fact, based on everything Zoloff's algorithm has been able to deduce, she's not just a potential threat, she is a threat, with a circle on influence that extends far enough to be a concern. Being a member of Hydra, you are not above ignoring her Constitutional rights to quell her influence. In fact, it all comes down to the fact that she should have no Constitutional rights because she should not even be considered a citizen at all. You have no problem with your organization taking her off the streets, questioning her, even resorting to torturing her to get more information.

But Hydra's plan isn't to remove her form the street.... it's more like asking you to take out our gun and shoot her in the head in front of everyone. Only Hydra's plan is much worse, it means doing that to a million people all at once, despite the fact that those million people are all threats.

So even if you agree that any threats should not be given due process, you are still a human being,.. (you are doing this to protect people, and the film even says that Hydra was founded on the idea that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom) so the Consitution be damned but being hat Hydra is comprised of humans.. humans emathetic enough to at least care about the health of society, it would certainly not be unreasonable to think that many of them would balk (or at least second guess) the notion of violently killing people in broad daylight. Sure you have liek that one din the film.. I forget his name, but the guy that Falcon fights near the end, who would totally not care how these threats are dealt with, but there are going to be those people who believe in Hydra and its goals but who also care. So with Insight's knowledge of human nature, it would have to take that into account...

 

[DWF]

That's true, but ShiELD was a big oppressive organization well before that point. Just look at Agents of SHIELD season one. There were standard operating procedures everyone just took for granted that were ridiculously oppressive. Those carrying it out thought there were benign intentions, but they kept a secret list of everyone with powers and imposed rules and restrictions on them even though they had done nothing wrong. Those who were unwilling to follow those rules or were unable to control their powers were locked up or destroyed. All that is independent of the actions of Tony Stark.

Well I did say that SHIELD were dealing with plaentary threats for years. However given SHIELD's actions even before we learned of Hydra were iffy at times, really it's had to SHIELD as the good guys , it's no wonder Hydra was able to turn so many of their agents.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

Also Fury knew something was up, he just couldn't put a finger on it. That's why he arranged the hijacking of the boat. Why he sent in CA and Black Widow with different missions. He would have eventually happen upon Hydra and everything going on. Things got moved up by Hydra because of him.

 

[Marsden]

Yes I respect the fact that the themes are there.. but it was obvious.. even you listen to the commentary.. that the writers were trying so desperately to put those themes together in the movie.. to make them work in service of the movie. The writers mention on numerous occasions that they were having trouble with the third act. I always wondered why the third act from this move can't be more like the scene at the overpass.. a big bold action scene set in real environments instead of on a bunch of helicarriers?

That aside, I'm willing to go with it, because I respect that they tried their darnedest to incorporate the Patriot Act Analogy, and the Hydra moles into the the story, the narrative and the action. I respect that.. but their plan doesn't hold up. What does hydra do to control the crowds, the uproar, or the military planes or missiles that will strike them down. You could argue that our military is all Hydra but that is a little hard to believe, and even it was, the other governments would not hesitate to strike down the helicarriers preemptively.

The fact that's interesting about this is Hydra is taking actions based on it's knowledge of hnuman nature.. the Patriot Act coupled with Asimov's notion of psychohistory.. (this is an interesting notion) but somewhere along the line, Hydra would have to have realized that their very orginaztion has humans in it (Zoloff can't run it by itself) and if Hydra knows as much about human nature as it claims to know, they know that most decent human beings (not just Fury) would have second guesses about the ethics of insight.

The Patriot Act was concocted as a knee-jerk bit of legislation after 9/11, and even it's name was established to curry support and quell opposition. The Act was so big that the lawmakers who signed it in law hadn't even read all of it - but of course if they didn't vote for it, that could be construed as unpatriotic especially after 9/11.

But if 9/11 was the "occasion" for the Patriot Act (even if it had been planned for a long time prior to 9/11) what is the "occasion" for Project Insight that would allow it to actually rally the support it needed to after people saw it in action?? This being the MCU, one would assume it was Stark Industries unauthorized weapons' manufacturing (which is possible) 0or the alien invasion of New York (though that seems really disconnected thematically from the themes in this film).

I want to know why the writers' though of such awesome notions and then they had to push them, into such a traditionally structured narrative that isn't the equal of the themes they were talking about. It's kind of like why TNG's Unification" wasn't as good as it should have been.. we were promised a story that could have well changed the status quo of all of Star trek at the time, and the in the end we just get a poorly thought out plan by Sela that was hardly worthy of the themes the episode was trying to convey, and as a result the episode just kind of ends with nothing changing..

Things did change at the end of Winter solder. Ia actually enjoyed the ending montage, But the actual plan still seems shallow and poorly thought-out.

I think the occasion could have been the Chitari invasion of New York. And I think those first 60,000 people, like President Ellis, would have been the ones to lead any resistance thus removing them you have millions of shocked and scared sheeple that will obey so they don't get a bullet in the head from an invisible helicarrier in the sky. Now, is that practical? Probably not, but things like "once they are airborne they never have to come back down" and I'm assuming they were at least as stealthy as the helicarrier in Avengers, that's really hard to stop, especially with no one giving orders.

Also, Pierce said the sacrifice of 200,000,000 to save 7 billion. The US population is just over 300,000,000. I'm sure those first targets were only just the first bunch, there were many more planned. And I'm sure where ever they were, people like Hawkeye and Coulson and Col Talbot, even Dr Henry Pym were on the list. Anyone who would oppose the subjugation by HYDRA and could do something about it.

 

[DWF]

Let's take a scaled-down version of Hydra's plan.

You work for Hydra, and you believe in it.

The person next to you (we'll call her Colleen) isva potential threat. In fact, based on everything Zoloff's algorithm has been able to deduce, she's not just a potential threat, she is a threat, with a circle on influence that extends far enough to be a concern. Being a member of Hydra, you are not above ignoring her Constitutional rights to quell her influence. In fact, it all comes down to the fact that she should have no Constitutional rights because she should not even be considered a citizen at all. You have no problem with your organization taking her off the streets, questioning her, even resorting to torturing her to get more information.

But Hydra's plan isn't to remove her form the street.... it's more like asking you to take out our gun and shoot her in the head in front of everyone. Only Hydra's plan is much worse, it means doing that to a million people all at once, despite the fact that those million people are all threats.

So even if you agree that any threats should not be given due process, you are still a human being,.. (you are doing this to protect people, and the film even says that Hydra was founded on the idea that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom) so the Consitution be damned but being hat Hydra is comprised of humans.. humans emathetic enough to at least care about the health of society, it would certainly not be unreasonable to think that many of them would balk (or at least second guess) the notion of violently killing people in broad daylight. Sure you have liek that one din the film.. I forget his name, but the guy that Falcon fights near the end, who would totally not care how these threats are dealt with, but there are going to be those people who believe in Hydra and its goals but who also care. So with Insight's knowledge of human nature, it would have to take that into account...

First off it's Zola not Zoloff and secondly the man's name was Brock Rumlow and really he's little m ore than a thug. Hydra was after anybody who'd a threat to them. By creating chaos and death they could come in later on and take over. But there's nothing to suggesst that this was Hydra's main plan, it seemed like ti was only Piece's plan since he had access to the helicarriers and SHIELD.