Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by bbjeg, Apr 6, 2014.

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What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)

  1. A+

    17.5%
  2. A

    38.1%
  3. A-

    14.4%
  4. B+

    6.2%
  5. B

    13.4%
  6. B-

    3.1%
  7. C+

    2.1%
  8. C

    4.1%
  9. C-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    1.0%
  1. DEWLine

    DEWLine Commodore Commodore

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    And I am getting less and less comfortable with the idea of Sousa getting thrown under a bus in this discussion.

    And I wasn't comfortable with that idea after seeing Endgame the first time.
     
  2. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Pretty much. Though I'd say is was less "destroyed" and more "hopelessly overrun by the forces of darkness and chaos". I mean the timeline would exist, but it wouldn't be a very nice place to visit. ;)
     
  3. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm only up to Season 3 episode 1 of Legion, but so far I've loved every second of it, and I will gladly watch anything else Hawley does for Marvel Television.
     
  4. kitik

    kitik Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Very interested to hear about what else we'll get on Disney+.
    Gimme more more more!

    Thinking about all the various Marvel projects, have we heard anything about that animated New Warriors tv show lately? That thing was supposed to be ready to go, just looking for the proper channel to air it on.
     
  5. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It seems sufficiently obvious that if Steve had been running around openly unfrozen all those years then people would be aware of it --- yet no one is.

    As one example, how is it that our intrepid Hydra-fighter Cap has somehow not told anyone about Hydra's infiltration of SHIELD? Slipped his mind, perhaps? His efforts seem to have come to naught. This is a guy who went to the past armed with foreknowledge of decades of chronologically later events, and we're supposed to believe he's been running around fighting the good fight, yet somehow precisely nothing changed. How is that not a red flag?

    So much for that!
     
  6. kitik

    kitik Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Old Steve argument is a silly one, it cannot be proven right or wrong by either side.

    I suspect we will get an answer on screen one day. You'll just have to wait. But man, it'd be hilarious if they figured out some third option that trumped everyone else.
     
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  7. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Because you can't change your past. That's literally the whole point. If you can travel to and live in your own past but you can't change your past then anything you do in your past by default cannot lead to any change.

    But that doesn't mean he can't do anything. For all we know, Hydra would've taken over the world several times over if it weren't for Steve fighting them from the shadows in ways that were always part of the past but were never known by the audience.

    And for all we know he did tell people about Hydra. Literally the only people we know who would've definitely interacted with Steve are Peggy Carter, Howard Stark and maybe Nick Fury. We have no idea what Peggy or Howard did or didn't know because Howard died before any of the modern films happened and Peggy's modern appearance didn't happen until after she contracted Alzheimers. And we have no idea when Fury learned about Hydra or how much he knew because A) It's Nick Fury and you literally can't trust anything he says and B) He certainly seemed to know something was up with SHIELD before hydra made their move.
     
  8. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    In fact, I think the scene could be even more concrete. If they removed the Time Stone, Dormammu would have conquered our universe.
     
  9. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You can't change *your* past, but you can change *a* past which is now your new present. That's literally the premise of the whole plot.

    The thing with Cap is simply a matter of internal plot consistency. If Old Cap was Peggy's unnamed husband all this time, then the rest of the movie couldn't have happened. Leaving aside the notion that Cap would have done something about all of this long ago (he would have and probably did), if the pasts they travelled back to are causally linked to the present they departed from then the timeline would have changed. It did not, therefore they were not.

    After Cap got done clipping all the nasty infinity stone deprived branches he went back to live with Peggy, which created a new timeline where he doubtlessly rooted Hydra out of SHIELD before it had a chance to take root, dropped by the Sanctum Sanctorum to give the slightly less Ancient One a full account of his past so they can avert most of the nastier things before they happen (finding a better place to keep the Tesseract safe would be a good start, though that probably means no Captain Marvel in that universe) and lived out the rest of his and Peggy's life together until she passed. Then he returned to his home universe, which is where we saw him. I tend to assume he then returned to the universe he just spent 70 years living in, but that's unclear.

    The only wrinkle for me is how he got back without exiting the quantum tunnel. My only thought is that he somehow did so before he left and *somehow* nobody noticed (maybe when Bruce was having his lunch or something.)

    Him plus whatever other trans-dimensional threats the Ancient One and the other Sorcerers Supreme have seen off over the millennia.
     
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  10. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This makes no sense. Sure Steve could have been Peggy's unnamed husband--and give Steve enough credit to understand rooting Hydra out of SHIELD would completely disrupt his mission to restore the timeline. I acknowledge that it is a possibility Cap could be living in another timeline but it is not the only possibility given what we know. So why argue your point as if it is absolute truth when it is not?
     
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  11. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Because that's the time travel logic the movie presented. Steve wasn't the unnamed husband because he physically couldn't have been. All other arguments are rendered moot by the very premise.

    I don't know why people are struggling with this concept; the movie went out of it's way to explain it multiple times and directly and explicitly refuted the very models people here keep insisting on.
     
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  12. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In your opinion. Others - including the people who have actually written everything that we have seen that directly involves or centers on Cap and Peggy - disagree and have the evidence to support their viewpoint.
     
  13. flavaflav

    flavaflav Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Yet Old Man Cap is most definitely in our timeline and grew old there as seen at the end of the movie.
     
  14. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except that it is not. The movie presents that time travel won't affect their present--that doesn't account for the possibility that the characters don't know all the details about their present.
     
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  15. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Absence of knowledge is not proof of anything but the absence of knowledge.
    Not knowing who Mr. Peggy Carter was is not an argument in favour of it being Cap. It's irrelevant.
    No, in Professor Hulk's opinion. And Nebula's. And Tony's. And Rocket's. And The Ancient One's.

    I mean what part of "this was spelled out multiple times" was unclear?

    Honestly I'm tired of constantly repeating myself, so I'm just going to leave people to their misapprehensions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  16. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except--once again repeating myself--you are incorrect. I'm not saying that your ideas aren't cool or interesting. What I am saying is that the movie, the way it is presented, is open to interpretation on this matter. That is what we are having fun discussing.

    Where you are in error is in your belief that you are objectively correct. You are not.

    It is like debating interpretations of history--the evidence can be interpreted in multiple ways, each way being a valid interpretation.
     
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  17. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    For now, I'm going to defer to the writers' stated intent and the evidentiary proof of that intent that is spread across the rest of their work.
     
  18. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    *waves* Have fun storming the castle! ;)
     
  19. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    I don't understand why people are arguing with someone who has not seen the film in question (as he has freely admitted!). Makes no sense to me. :lol:
     
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  20. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ This conversation is only tangentially about "the film I haven't seen" (Endgame); it's been primarily, at least on my end, about Markus and McFeely's overall intent for Cap and Peggy's story as presented in both Endgame and their other work in the MCU.