Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by bbjeg, Apr 6, 2014.

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What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)

  1. A+

    15.1%
  2. A

    39.5%
  3. A-

    14.0%
  4. B+

    5.8%
  5. B

    15.1%
  6. B-

    3.5%
  7. C+

    2.3%
  8. C

    3.5%
  9. C-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    1.2%
  1. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But their didn't intent doesn't ammount to a steaming pile of shit if it's not of screen, and nothing we got onscreen is an absolute confirmation of what you're saying.
    At this point, they could say that they intended for the cap we've been seeing to actually be a crossdressing version of the Peggy Carter Captain America introduced in the Exiles comics, and who is going to be making an appearance in the What If animated series, and it wouldn't mean any more than what you've been saying.
     
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  2. flavaflav

    flavaflav Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Except that is was presented that way onscreen in Endgame. Cap didn't come back via the time travel pad doohickey. He was their waiting for them, because he went back in time instead, married Peggy, aged, and meets the boys right where he left them.
     
  3. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    Who says that Cap couldn't have returned by the way of a time machine built in an alternate reality? There doesn't need to be a time machine on both ends, the same technology could have easily been created in whatever reality he decided to stay with Peggy in.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
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  4. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    But.... how would you know how its presented in Endgame when you haven't seen it?
    Besides, intent means little if it's not on the screen.
    It's like, sure, Rowling's intent may have been that Dumbledore is gay, but, would you know it if you read the books or watched the movies?
     
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  5. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree with this. That is what I saw on screen as well. But as people here have presented, there is room for other interpretations.
     
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  6. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I said nothing about this as far as what Endgame itself does.

    Yes, actually, because there are clues in the early novels that directly point to Dumbledore being "non-straight".
     
  7. crookeddy

    crookeddy Commodore Commodore

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    You wouldn't know for sure, but you'd certainly suspect. Especially after the second Fantastic Beasts.
     
  8. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But how he got there isn't actually shown on screen, we see him show up, but we never saw the trip to get there. He could easily have used some sort of tech to jump between realities before he showed up talk to Bucky and Sam.
     
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  9. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    The reason why I don't think Cap is Peggy's all along husband, besides TWS as I said, is the two unique objects that are brought back from the past in the movie, Cap's shield and Thor's hammer, Meowow.

    Thor steals his hammer from The Dark World, and it's there with them in the rest of the movie, but the past isn't changed. Jane is going to have in in Thor 4 so it's not returned. How did Thor beat Malekith without his hammer? He didn't have to Because you can't change the past. When Nebula shot Nebula, she should have disappeared if she died 7 years ago but she didn't, Because you can't change the past.
     
  10. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In the absence of such clarifying details, I think deferring to authorial intent is the smartest option, and, as noted, said authorial intent is that Cap always traveled back in time and that he's been Peggy's husband throughout the entirety of the MCU as we've seen it unfold thus far.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You can't time travel into your own past, even one would suspect from another point in the past, because you end up in an alternate timeline.

    So...

    1. This is the same timeline we have been watching all along, and old man cap is an alternate Captain America from a different universe who has been in a backseat to the MCU all along.

    Or...

    2. This is the new timeline that was created when Steve went back to 1945 to dance with Peggy.

    ...

    In both cases Old Man Cap is a diffetent Cap, than middle aged Cap seen leaving on the time platform.
     
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  12. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's a contradiction. It's not your actual past anymore, if it now includes you time-traveling from the future. It's been changed just from you being there.

    His mission isn't to 'restore the timeline', it's to return the stones. ( And we're in a universe of multiple timelines here, so it's not really even correct to talk about "the" timeline. )

    But this is the point: if it's assumed that Steve has to "protect the timeline" Back to the Future style ( despite the fact that the film seemingly takes great pains to crap all over Back to the Future ) Steve can't root Hydra out of SHIELD because he really can't do anything! He's essentially constrained to hide under Peggy's bed or in the closet. Even dancing in front of the window is highly problematic, you never know who could be walking by! That was a major breach! Back to the basement with you, Cappy!

    As we can see in this case, not always.
     
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  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If Hydra won in Captain America II Winter Soldier, or at any point before that... Could Hydra defeat Thanos later on?

    Cap might think that with forewarning that he can out wit the coming threats, but the problem is that they defeated Thanos by luck mostly, at every turn. Defeating Hydra will make the inevitable war with Thanos uncertain.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  14. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You are assuming that there is only one set of laws governing time travel across all fiction and that is simply not the case. In this case Steve could have always been in the past but never seen. Assuming he arrives after WWII he will never be in danger of missing his previous self until 2012. Nobody is going to recognize him walking down the street unless they were students of old newsreels, and even then they would just think he has a passing resemblance to CA.

    As for protecting the timeline, of course he is going to protect the timeline--otherwise the Avengers might not be around to stop Thanos in the future. That doesn't mean that Cap couldn't have gone on clandestine adventures, perhaps in a different disguise.
     
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  15. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    There's no worry about whether or not the Avengers will defeat Thanos in the original timeline. That timeline is part of time-traveling Steve's past and cannot be changed. his actions going forward could only affect the new timeline which he chose to spend his retirement.
     
  16. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Assuming he created a new timeline, of course. I prefer the theory that he didn't.
     
  17. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    That's pretty explicitly not how it's explained, but if that theory helps your enjoyment of the movie, then be my guest. To me, that's the same as the people who say Discovery is in a different reality than the Berma-Trek shows.
     
  18. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think there has been a number of posts in this thread that demonstrate that based on what is actually seen in the movie either theory is up for grabs until we get further information.
     
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  19. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    No. It 100% can be your actual past *if* you being in the past was always a part of the timeline. Nothing in the movie contradicts this. Your interpretation fits the movie, too, but it is *not* the only possible interpretation of what the movie says, no matter how many times you guys repeat the same argument over and over again.

    Also, no.

    First of all, the extent to which Steve might try to change the timeline is debatable because he understands that the end result of the timeline was pretty good overall. But whether Steve would try to change the timeline or not doesn't matter because he literally can't change the timeline. Nothing he does in the past can be new, or else it wouldn't be his past. He could spend his entire life trying to root out Hydra, but something would always happen to protect them at least in such a way that the specific elements of hydra which existed in TWS would still exist during TWS. Because that's how the timeline happened.

    Secondly, this does not mean he has to spend his life in a closet and never achieve anything worthwhile. His identity is immaterial and doesn't need to be protected because no one is going to just assume that this guy must be that dead war hero just because he's really strong and looks similar. His life can be spent fighting all sorts of things which could easily have existed in the past that we just never heard about before. His life can also be spent fighting a covert war against Hydra where he is constrained from rooting them out completely, but is still able to achieve real victories which save lives and reduce Hydra's influence from what it otherwise could have been. Or he could actually settle down and live the family life he deserves. All these things are possible.
     
  20. flavaflav

    flavaflav Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    But why? It makes no sense and is not supported by anything in the movie. We know for a fact Steve goes into the past and married Peggy. Steve knows Hydra is defeated and Thanos is killed. Why on Earth would he start messing with jumping between realities?