Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by bbjeg, Apr 6, 2014.

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What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)

  1. A+

    15.1%
  2. A

    39.5%
  3. A-

    14.0%
  4. B+

    5.8%
  5. B

    15.1%
  6. B-

    3.5%
  7. C+

    2.3%
  8. C

    3.5%
  9. C-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    1.2%
  1. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've already addressed this.

    Everything that Markus and McFeely have written involving Cap and Peggy points to their stated intent of "2023 Cap" having existed alongside "1940s/21st Century Cap" as Peggy's unseen and unnamed husband for the entirety of the "Infinity Saga", which cancels out whatever interpretation the Russo Brothers have in regards to what the time travel in Avengers Endgame meant.
     
  2. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    Which only means nothing they do is a change.

    Not if it's impossible to change your past. Then it just means you were always present in your past to begin with.

    Seriously, no one is demanding you guys get on board with this interpretation of Endgame, but pretending that the idea of time travel in a fixed timeline is some fundamentally inconceivable concept is ridiculous. It would hardly be the first movie to have that sort of time travel concept.

    Why does anyone care who 'outranks' who? They all worked on the movie. They all helped shape it. None of them actually has the authority or ability to further legitimise their interpretation anymore than they already did by shaping the movie (except for Feige, who has no opinion). If anything, the fact that the movie can so easily be turned in either direction just means that neither side really fully got their way in terms of how they thought it was supposed to be.
     
  3. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except it's obviously a change. See: Morag.

    Except you weren't.

    Hardly.
     
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  4. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The way I saw the whole thing with the Infinity Stones, was that she was simply using them as an example to explain the whole branching timelines thing, not that it was only going to happen if you removed them, and that they were returning them because the new timelines were still going to need them to be there or things could get really bad.
    But that is still the case if they are in an alternate timeline, because even if things split off after he shows up, he is still ending up with Peggy.
     
  5. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, nothing they established in the other shows and movies prevents it from being Steve, but that doesn't mean it has to be.
     
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  6. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    I already talked about the potential issues. Long before anyone else mentioned them in fact. I'm not saying the fixed timeline model fits Endgame perfectly. I am saying it fits quite well overall, close enough to be fudged without much effort, and the alternate universe theory also doesn't fit the movie perfectly and would also have to be fudged to roughly the same degree.

    The exact quote: The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one…not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer.

    There is no interpretation of that first part that means anything other than removing a stone will cause an alternate universe because the stones are uniquely related to the flow of time. And there's no interpretation of the second part that has any relevance whatsoever to the Power, Space, Mind, Reality or Soul Stones. None of those are the world's 'Chief weapon against the forces of darkness'.
     
  7. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    :guffaw:

    Addressed it with nonsense.
     
  8. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I had the opposite interpretation (and I know the Russo's statements contradict it), that the new timelines were only formed if the stones were removed and that when the stones are returned the timelines collapse and disappear. To me the ending of the movie was that Cap had simply been living alongside everyone was throughout the years, staying low so as not to disrupt the timeline. That said, I've only seen the movie once.

    I am going to pay closer attention when I watch it again.
     
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  9. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    OK, I will confess I forgot about the exact wording of that part, but I still don't see where it absolutely rules out other things creating alternate timelines too.
     
  10. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    How is it nonsense?

    It's the same basic concept behind the Time Turners in Harry Potter.
     
  11. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    I don't think it does rule it out, I just don't think it proves anything other than the stones can create an alternate timeline. And I don't think anything else in the movie does, either.
     
  12. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No, it's not, because the alternate timeline would only exist from the moment that 2023 Cap goes back in time.

    Markus and McFeely's stated intent is for 2023 Cap's time travel to have been a "causality loop" wherein that Cap and his 1940s counterpart existed simultaneously from the 1940s up through 2023 and the entirety of the Infinity Saga and auxiliary stuff like Agent Carter, with the two Caps' lives eventually merging into one.
     
  13. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure why you're saying no, because you just repeated what I said.

    Yes, that was their intent when they wrote the end of Endgame, but there is nothing from before Endgame that proves that has to be how things played out.
     
  14. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Everything that they either wrote or helped produce pre-Endgame that involves Cap and Peggy was leading in that direction; it just took the time travel elements of Endgame for the full picture to come into focus, as pointed out and outlined by that article I linked to earlier.
     
  15. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I understand that, but there is nothing in the shows or movies by themselves that says that it absolutely had to be him.
     
  16. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I disagree... even without having actually seen Endgame.
     
  17. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's quite obvious that ( for example ) Morag plays out differently in Endgame from the way it did in GOTG. "Fudging" here means ignoring all that, while the branching timeline model does not require similar contortions, as it can be made to fit by application of things we're given by the film.

    Which alternative is better: Cap hiding in Peggy's closet all those years, doing absolutely nothing about the Hydra takeover of SHIELD or anything else, letting another man publicly pretend to be Peggy's husband and the father of her children, and never allowing himself to be seen in public? Or Cap being in a branch timeline?

    But on what basis? Nothing that's in the prior material in any way forces it to be Steve.
     
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  18. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except he's the only one other than Thor who can carry Mjolinar.
     
  19. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    How did you reach that conclusion?

    The only people who've ever written for Cap and produced Peggy's showcase series have stated that it has always (as in "since 2011") been their intention for Cap to have been Peggy's unseen husband, which means that they very intentionally and deliberately planned and wrote and/or guided the writing of all materials involving those two characters through that narrative lens and with that narrative direction in mind.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  20. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    No, fudging means inventing a fictional justification around the stones that can lump those specific events into an alternate (stone based) reality or a fictional justification around why a few characters don't seem to remember a few things.

    On the other hand, fudging also means mentally rewriting a major plotpoint of the movie to explain away the bizarre trim the branches inconsistency if alternate realities are normal.

    :rolleyes:

    You know it would be great if you could stop making sanctimonious smug attacks against arguments that literally no one proposed. I already spoke at length about exactly why *in a fixed timeline*, Cap could still have an entire lifetime of happiness with Peggy *and* help people just as much as always and even fight Hydra.

    And this new bit about him letting someone else pretend to be Peggy's husband is just idiotic. There is absolutely no reason to assume that would happen under any circumstances. He would be her husband, he'd just be using a different name and a fake(ish) personal history.