Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[DigificWriter]

Directors>Screenwriters = Always

I've already addressed this.

Everything that Markus and McFeely have written involving Cap and Peggy points to their stated intent of "2023 Cap" having existed alongside "1940s/21st Century Cap" as Peggy's unseen and unnamed husband for the entirety of the "Infinity Saga", which cancels out whatever interpretation the Russo Brothers have in regards to what the time travel in Avengers Endgame meant.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Exactly. Even if the actual act of traveling back through time didn't create the alternate reality, the moment the time travelers changed ANYTHING they created an alternate reality.

Which only means nothing they do is a change.

Yes, they do. If you allegedly can't change your past, but then you time travel back into your past, it's not your past anymore. Because you've changed it just by showing up.

Not if it's impossible to change your past. Then it just means you were always present in your past to begin with.

Seriously, no one is demanding you guys get on board with this interpretation of Endgame, but pretending that the idea of time travel in a fixed timeline is some fundamentally inconceivable concept is ridiculous. It would hardly be the first movie to have that sort of time travel concept.

Directors>Screenwriters = Always

Why does anyone care who 'outranks' who? They all worked on the movie. They all helped shape it. None of them actually has the authority or ability to further legitimise their interpretation anymore than they already did by shaping the movie (except for Feige, who has no opinion). If anything, the fact that the movie can so easily be turned in either direction just means that neither side really fully got their way in terms of how they thought it was supposed to be.

 

[Set Harth]

Which only means nothing they do is a change.

Except it's obviously a change. See: Morag.

Then it just means you were always present in your past to begin with.

Except you weren't.

which cancels out whatever interpretation the Russo Brothers have in regards to what the time travel in Avengers Endgame meant.

Hardly.

 

[JD]

Again, nothing in the movie ever actually says that traveling back in time creates an alternate universe. The movie says that removing an infinity stone from the timeline creates an alternate universe and that you can't change your past and therefore Back to the Future (and various other time travel movies) are wrong. That's it.

You may interpret events as implying that time travel creates alternate universes, but we really don't know if that's true based on what's written in the film itself and we really don't know exactly how Steve understood what was said to him (which we probably didn't even see in its entirety).

Also, for the record, the Ancient One never says a thing about a branch reality which is missing, say, the Aether or the Tesseract, being bad. The only justification she gives for not wanting to live in a reality without the time stone is that she would personally no longer have access to her great weapon if she needed it to defend Earth from boogedy boogedies. If that's the only reason the time stone needs to go back, then the other stones are debatable at best and the soul stone in particular would likely never even be missed.

And in regards to the shield: Cap getting a new shield from his past really isn't a problem. All you have to do is imagine a single adventure somewhere with the Black Panther (aka T'Chaka) where he proves himself trustworthy (as that's literally what cap does) and the door is open. Or you could just as easily imagine Howard Stark held some Vibranium back/melted down some other old prototype of his to make a new shield. Heck, for all we know Old Cap could've literally just been waiting at T'Challa's doorstep after the battle and asked him for a new shield and a ride to the time travel machine and also, I want this to be a surprise, so don't tell anyone I'm coming.

The way I saw the whole thing with the Infinity Stones, was that she was simply using them as an example to explain the whole branching timelines thing, not that it was only going to happen if you removed them, and that they were returning them because the new timelines were still going to need them to be there or things could get really bad.

For the purposes of Cap's overall narrative, the question isn't specifically "how" he could have always been Peggy's husband, but whether or not he "was", and from an outsider's perspective, it is more logical, narratively satisfying, and thematically consistent if the answer to that question is "yes".

But that is still the case if they are in an alternate timeline, because even if things split off after he shows up, he is still ending up with Peggy.

 

[JD]

I've already addressed this.

Everything that Markus and McFeely have written involving Cap and Peggy points to their stated intent of "2023 Cap" having existed alongside "1940s/21st Century Cap" as Peggy's unseen and unnamed husband for the entirety of the "Infinity Saga", which cancels out whatever interpretation the Russo Brothers have in regards to what the time travel in Avengers Endgame meant.

Yes, nothing they established in the other shows and movies prevents it from being Steve, but that doesn't mean it has to be.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Except it's obviously a change. See: Morag.

I already talked about the potential issues. Long before anyone else mentioned them in fact. I'm not saying the fixed timeline model fits Endgame perfectly. I am saying it fits quite well overall, close enough to be fudged without much effort, and the alternate universe theory also doesn't fit the movie perfectly and would also have to be fudged to roughly the same degree.

The way I saw the whole thing with the Infinity Stones, was that she was simply using them as an example to explain the whole branching timelines thing, not that it was only going to happen if you removed them, and that they were returning them because the new timelines were still going to need them to be there or things could get really bad.

The exact quote: The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one…not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer.

There is no interpretation of that first part that means anything other than removing a stone will cause an alternate universe because the stones are uniquely related to the flow of time. And there's no interpretation of the second part that has any relevance whatsoever to the Power, Space, Mind, Reality or Soul Stones. None of those are the world's 'Chief weapon against the forces of darkness'.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I've already addressed this.

Everything that Markus and McFeely have written involving Cap and Peggy points to their stated intent of "2023 Cap" having existed alongside "1940s/21st Century Cap" as Peggy's unseen and unnamed husband for the entirety of the "Infinity Saga", which cancels out whatever interpretation the Russo Brothers have in regards to what the time travel in Avengers Endgame meant.

Addressed it with nonsense.

 

[theenglish]

The way I saw the whole thing with the Infinity Stones, was that she was simply using them as an example to explain the whole branching timelines thing, not that it was only going to happen if you removed them, and that they were returning them because the new timelines were still going to need them to be there or things could get really bad.

But that is still the case if they are in an alternate timeline, because even if things split off after he shows up, he is still ending up with Peggy.

I had the opposite interpretation (and I know the Russo's statements contradict it), that the new timelines were only formed if the stones were removed and that when the stones are returned the timelines collapse and disappear. To me the ending of the movie was that Cap had simply been living alongside everyone was throughout the years, staying low so as not to disrupt the timeline. That said, I've only seen the movie once.

I am going to pay closer attention when I watch it again.

 

[JD]

The exact quote: The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one…not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer.

There is no interpretation of that first part that means anything other than removing a stone will cause an alternate universe because the stones are uniquely related to the flow of time. And there's no interpretation of the second part that has any relevance whatsoever to the Power, Space, Mind, Reality or Soul Stones. None of those are the world's 'Chief weapon against the forces of darkness'.

OK, I will confess I forgot about the exact wording of that part, but I still don't see where it absolutely rules out other things creating alternate timelines too.

 

[DigificWriter]

Adressed it with nonsense.

How is it nonsense?

It's the same basic concept behind the Time Turners in Harry Potter.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

OK, I will confess I forgot about the exact wording of that part, but I still don't see where it absolutely rules out other things creating alternate timelines too.

I don't think it does rule it out, I just don't think it proves anything other than the stones can create an alternate timeline. And I don't think anything else in the movie does, either.

 

[DigificWriter]

But that is still the case if they are in an alternate timeline, because even if things split off after he shows up, he is still ending up with Peggy.

No, it's not, because the alternate timeline would only exist from the moment that 2023 Cap goes back in time.

Markus and McFeely's stated intent is for 2023 Cap's time travel to have been a "causality loop" wherein that Cap and his 1940s counterpart existed simultaneously from the 1940s up through 2023 and the entirety of the Infinity Saga and auxiliary stuff like Agent Carter, with the two Caps' lives eventually merging into one.

 

[JD]

No, it's not, because the alternate timeline would only exist from the moment that 2023 Cap goes back in time.

I'm not sure why you're saying no, because you just repeated what I said.

Markus and McFeely's stated intent is for 2023 Cap's time travel to have been a "causality loop" wherein that Cap and his 1940s counterpart existed simultaneously from the 1940s up through 2023 and the entirety of the Infinity Saga and auxiliary stuff like Agent Carter, with the two Caps' lives eventually merging into one.

Yes, that was their intent when they wrote the end of Endgame, but there is nothing from before Endgame that proves that has to be how things played out.

 

[DigificWriter]

Yes, that was their intent when they wrote the end of Endgame, but there is nothing from before Endgame that proves that has to be how things played out.

Everything that they either wrote or helped produce pre-Endgame that involves Cap and Peggy was leading in that direction; it just took the time travel elements of Endgame for the full picture to come into focus, as pointed out and outlined by that article I linked to earlier.

 

[JD]

I understand that, but there is nothing in the shows or movies by themselves that says that it absolutely had to be him.

 

[DigificWriter]

I understand that, but there is nothing in the shows or movies by themselves that says that it absolutely had to be him.

I disagree... even without having actually seen Endgame.

 

[Set Harth]

I am saying it fits quite well overall, close enough to be fudged without much effort, and the alternate universe theory also doesn't fit the movie perfectly and would also have to be fudged to roughly the same degree.

It's quite obvious that ( for example ) Morag plays out differently in Endgame from the way it did in GOTG. "Fudging" here means ignoring all that, while the branching timeline model does not require similar contortions, as it can be made to fit by application of things we're given by the film.

To me the ending of the movie was that Cap had simply been living alongside everyone was throughout the years, staying low so as not to disrupt the timeline.

Which alternative is better: Cap hiding in Peggy's closet all those years, doing absolutely nothing about the Hydra takeover of SHIELD or anything else, letting another man publicly pretend to be Peggy's husband and the father of her children, and never allowing himself to be seen in public? Or Cap being in a branch timeline?

I disagree... even without having actually seen Endgame.

But on what basis? Nothing that's in the prior material in any way forces it to be Steve.

 

[theenglish]

But on what basis? Nothing that's in the prior material in any way forces it to be Steve.

Except he's the only one other than Thor who can carry Mjolinar.

 

[DigificWriter]

Nothing that's in the prior material in any way forces it to be Steve.

How did you reach that conclusion?

The only people who've ever written for Cap and produced Peggy's showcase series have stated that it has always (as in "since 2011") been their intention for Cap to have been Peggy's unseen husband, which means that they very intentionally and deliberately planned and wrote and/or guided the writing of all materials involving those two characters through that narrative lens and with that narrative direction in mind.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It's quite obvious that ( for example ) Morag plays out differently in Endgame from the way it did in GOTG. "Fudging" here means ignoring all that, while the branching timeline model does not require similar contortions, as it can be made to fit by application of things we're given by the film.

No, fudging means inventing a fictional justification around the stones that can lump those specific events into an alternate (stone based) reality or a fictional justification around why a few characters don't seem to remember a few things.

On the other hand, fudging also means mentally rewriting a major plotpoint of the movie to explain away the bizarre trim the branches inconsistency if alternate realities are normal.

Which alternative is better: Cap hiding in Peggy's closet all those years, doing absolutely nothing about the Hydra takeover of SHIELD or anything else, letting another man publicly pretend to be Peggy's husband and the father of her children, and never allowing himself to be seen in public? Or Cap being in a branch timeline?

You know it would be great if you could stop making sanctimonious smug attacks against arguments that literally no one proposed. I already spoke at length about exactly why *in a fixed timeline*, Cap could still have an entire lifetime of happiness with Peggy *and* help people just as much as always and even fight Hydra.

And this new bit about him letting someone else pretend to be Peggy's husband is just idiotic. There is absolutely no reason to assume that would happen under any circumstances. He would be her husband, he'd just be using a different name and a fake(ish) personal history.