Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by bbjeg, Apr 6, 2014.

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What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)

  1. A+

    17.5%
  2. A

    38.1%
  3. A-

    14.4%
  4. B+

    6.2%
  5. B

    13.4%
  6. B-

    3.1%
  7. C+

    2.1%
  8. C

    4.1%
  9. C-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    1.0%
  1. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Yeah, this notion that Cap "hid in the shadows" while some other man "pretended" to be Peggy's husband is ludicrous.
     
  2. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This is exactly the way I've thought the ending was designed to imply. I don't need to know if Cap kept up fighting or not, but it is not hard to imagine that he and Peggy had some adventures together. I think that what a lot of people don't get is how easy it would have been for Steve to live as another person throughout most of the twentieth century. Up until the 21st century, we did not have access to images and photos the way we do today. Nobody is going to be reviewing war news reels looking to see if Steve down the road is actually Captain America--and there is probably close to zero chance that anybody is going to look at a photo of Cap and notice anything more than a passing resemblance to Peggy's husband next door.

    Even today, how many of us would be able to pick out our grandfather in an old photograph.
     
  3. 21-12

    21-12 Commodore Commodore

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    I think The Winter Soldier establishes it isn't Steve. The scene where he's watching the film from 1953 of Peggy saying Cap had rescued her future husband's platoon and then his visit to older Peggy and she's surprised that he's young. I don't think Steve was Peggy's husband but then he went back and was there with her. He didn't change "the" past but he changed his future. And since MCU Cap is really super human, he could live another 50 to 100 years. That leaves the door open for a Captain Steve Rogers appearance in future films, he was aged then, too, which is why Falcon took over as Captain America.
     
  4. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Based on what Markus and McFeely have said, I firmly believe that this is an incomplete 'misread' of things and that when the earlier Cap films are rewatched with the knowledge of Endgame in mind, the stuff you mention will correctly read as both a lie and a symptom of her failing mental health.
     
  5. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It can pretty easily be inferred that Peggy's deteriorating mental health was why she was wondering about Steve's age in TWS.
     
  6. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Which is exactly what I said.
     
  7. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Going only by what is in the movies and shows, I'd say both possibilities are equally likely.
    It's also worth keeping in mind that just because that is what Marcus and McFeely had in mind, that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what other potential writers will do if they deal with Steve and Peggy.
    Hell, if Kevin Feige prefers the alternate timeline option there's a chance he could make Marcus and McFeely go with that, even if it's not what originally had in mind.
    Yeah, there's no way he would let someone else pretend to be her husband. It's either not Steve or it's Steve with a new identity.
     
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  8. Happy X-Mas (War Is Over)

    Happy X-Mas (War Is Over) If You Want It Premium Member

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    I think "Steve Carter" was out there Captain Americing as covertly as possible. ;)
     
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  9. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This is what I think as well. Imagine a scenario where she's been living with Steve for decades. Aged Steve leaves the hospital and "young" Steve comes in. Even if old Steve has told her she will meet the young version of him at some point, it would certainly be confusing to her in any state.

    That assumes that Steve told her that he had been to the future at all.
     
  10. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You're providing zero specifics from the material in question which in any way force it to be Steve. Just "the writers said so". That's not actually movie content. Thus it remains true that "there is nothing in the shows or movies by themselves that says that it absolutely had to be him." Disagreeing with that statement means disagreeing with reality.

    So what? How does that make her husband Steve? Were we told that her husband used the hammer?

    You're assuming - wrongly - that your own interpretation of the dialogue in question is the only possible interpretation.

    That didn't happen in the original timeline.

    That follows as a necessary logical consequence of the scenario being proposed. Steve openly being Peggy's husband is not consistent with the timeline of the films. So if it is "idiotic" and "ludicrous", that's the point - then so is the notion that Steve was her husband all along.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  11. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry, I was confused there...I thought it referred to Steve being the one that HAD to go back in time.
     
  12. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You obviously didn't read the article that I posted, so I'm going to refer you to it again:
    https://www.silverpetticoatreview.com/2019/06/09/who-did-peggy-carter-marry/

    The clues and evidence from the 3 Captain America movies and Agent Carter that support Markus and McFeely's stated intent of Cap having always been Peggy's husband are spelled out in it, so I suggest that you read it.
     
  13. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    THE ANCIENT ONE (2012): The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one…not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer. So, tell me, Doctor, can your science prevent all that?

    BRUCE BANNER : No, but we can erase it. Because once we are done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken. So, chronologically, in that reality, it never left.

    THE ANCIENT ONE (2012) : But you are leaving out the most important part. In order to return the stones, you have to survive.

    BRUCE BANNER : We will. I will. I promise.

    THE ANCIENT ONE (2012): I can't risk this Reality on a promise. It is the duty of the Sorcerer Supreme to protect the Time Stone.

    ---

    BRUCE: Remember... You have to return the stones at the exact moment you got them. Or you're gonna open up a bunch of nasty alternative realities.

    STEVE: Don't worry, Bruce. Clip all the branches.


    Give me another interpretation of all that that allows for alternate universes to be totally normal yet still requires all the branches to be clipped and not just the Time Stone branch.

    You have no proof of that.

    No, it isn't.
     
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  14. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thanks for that. As for this dialogue from The Ancient One:

    "The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one…not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer. So, tell me, Doctor, can your science prevent all that?"

    I can't really see any other interpretation than the alternate realities are only created when the time stones are taken. But that does leave at least a couple of oddities.

    1. The obvious alterations we see to events prior to when the stones are taken during the visit to previous timelines. A possible explanation is that when the stones are returned they reset the timeline not just from that point on but to the moment they re-enter the timeline--so all Cap has to do is return to a few minutes before the Avengers first trip when he is returning the stones.

    2. This still doesn't explain Gamora's continued existence in the main timeline. Shouldn't she have been erased when the stones were returned?
     
  15. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    She wasn't in her original timeline when it was erased. No reason to assume the change would ever affect her. If causality worked that way, then erasing the timeline would change the past meaning that the Avengers actually had never taken the stone and the snap was never undone. Which is impossible.
     
  16. UssGlenn

    UssGlenn Commodore Commodore

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    I personally like Stephen Carter, with a "ph". Everybody knows Peggy has a type. Besides there is no way she'd put Steve's picture on her desk if she was married to someone else.

    As for alternate timelines, there is no way to actually clip the branches. You can only prevent bad branches by making sure all the new timelines have all their stones. All the timelines are demonstrably different after the heist. Especially the the Mind Stone, Reality Stone, and Power Stone timelines, since they are no longer in their original forms when returned. Banners line about "erasing it" refers to the bad timeline that's missing a stone. The Alternate timeline will continue regardless, Cap's just making sure it's not a bad one.
     
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  17. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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  18. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I decided to finally read your article, and it really doesn't change my mind in even the slightest bit. All it really says is that they never told us who Peggy's husband was, and that it wasn't Sousa. Just because it wasn't Sousa doesn't mean it had to be Steve.
     
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  19. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    I'm encouraged that Loeb hopes to work with Noah Hawley in the future. While Legion had some issues in season 2 (particularly the final episode), overall it's been an amazing series and I hope Hawley produces more for them.
     
  20. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    I took that to mean that any alteration of the timeline causes a split but removal of the stones causes a split to a timeline without the stones, which would cause that timeline to get destroyed.
     
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