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Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)


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:lol:

The directors always have the final say in movie storytelling. It's their job to have the final say. And beyond the russos, there is Kevin Feige, who has his own opinion on the subject, that hasn't publicly shared it.

They say a movie is written three times. By the writers, on set and in the editing bay.
Two out of those three times, the directors are the ones in charge of the decisions.
Well... unless they don't have final cut... then it's the producers.... which, I imagine, no one has final cut on an MCU movie but Fiege.
 
Not if the stones were always going to go back into their proper place, so, they never "left."
It's like in Bill and Ted's and the keys. The keys were always there because they were always going to go back and put them there.

Predestination doesn't work either since both past selves of Nebula and Thanos are killed. If past Thanos was killed before he even got the power stone, then who the hell snapped away half the universe? And if past Nebula is dead, then who the hell shot her?
 
They should have written the movie too then. If they couldn't properly interpret the scene, it's on them, not the writers.

That's not how movies work. They're collaborative enterprises with multiple creators contributing to the whole. The script is not inviolable holy writ, it's just one ingredient that goes into the recipe.

And as Turtletrekker said, in feature films, the buck stops with the directors (and the executives above them). The writers are responsible for giving the directors what they want, not the other way around.


Predestination doesn't work either since both past selves of Nebula and Thanos are killed. If past Thanos was killed before he even got the power stone, then who the hell snapped away half the universe? And if past Nebula is dead, then who the hell shot her?

The point is, physics allows for both self-consistent loops and branching timelines. It's not a mutually exclusive choice. There can be some time travels that produce self-consistent loops and others that create timeline branches. The important thing is that neither of those erases the original history. That's the only thing that's physically impossible.

Indeed, in the probabilistic model of quantum temporal theory, a time traveler is constrained to follow every possible path, including the one that merely leads to the existing history as well as the ones that change it and create parallel branches. Put crudely, the time traveler would split into one self whose actions were part of the existing history all along and other selves whose actions create alternate branches. Which is basically the only way to make sense of last season's Agents of SHIELD, in which they spent the whole season setting up a self-reinforcing temporal loop yet then contradicted themselves by allowing it to be broken at the end. The probabilistic model lets you have both outcomes at once.
 
Predestination doesn't work either since both past selves of Nebula and Thanos are killed. If past Thanos was killed before he even got the power stone, then who the hell snapped away half the universe? And if past Nebula is dead, then who the hell shot her?

Bootstrap paradox.

If I copy a mathematical proof from a text book, go back in time and give it to the woman who wrote the text book for her to copy and put into the text book that I later copy it from, where did it come from?

That said, asking for complete internal consistency from a time travel movie is always a big ask. Very few time travel movies and shows make any rational sense. Some do a good job, like Back to the Future... though, would Marty fade in spurts? That's weird, I guess we could say the time line is "in flux".... but does time go in flux? It does in fiction when it's required for the story...

My recent favorite time travel movie is Frequently Asked Questions About Time Travel...
 
As was pointed out by this article, Avengers Endgame's writers also wrote Avengers Infinity War, all 3 Captain Ametica solo film, and the pilot of Agent Carter (and served as EPs on the show as well), which means that there is significant evidence spread across the latter four projects that supports their viewpoint on things as opposed to the viewpoint of rhe Russo Brothers.
 
All of this Captain America talk has me laser-focused on a narrative element of a movie I haven't actually seen, Avengers: Endgame:
Cap going back to Peggy in the past.

Nothing that I've read about that moment convinces me that it created a "branched reality", especially not when the simplest - and far more meaningful - narrative is that Steve was always meant to be the man Peggy married and that he was interacting with her and his own lives without being aware of it when he sought her out in the 21st Century.

That narrative also fits the pattern of the MCU, for better or worse, being meticulously and oftentimes ridiculously interconnected.
I think this still works even if it is an alternate timeline, because then the Steve Rogers we've been following since The First Avenger did end up with Peggy, but it doesn't throw as many questions and complications into things.

The problem is that Steve being part of the MCU's past all along is narratively questionable -- it's hard to reconcile with the established history of the MCU or Peggy Carter, and it's out of character for Captain America.
This is my biggest problem with Cap going back not creating an alternate timeline, I just find it hard to believe that he could sit back for decades and watch all the horrible shit that is going to happen over that time. There is also a pretty good chance that he would know that he was just going to create an alternate timeline, so he wouldn't have to worry about changing history as he knew it.
 
This is my biggest problem with Cap going back not creating an alternate timeline, I just find it hard to believe that he could sit back for decades and watch all the horrible shit that is going to happen over that time. There is also a pretty good chance that he would know that he was just going to create an alternate timeline, so he wouldn't have to worry about changing history as he knew it.

TV spin off-- What Cap did in the Alternative Timeline... watch him beat up Hydra in the 1950s! Free Bucky in the 1960s! Disco in the 1970s!
 
There is also a pretty good chance that he would know that he was just going to create an alternate timeline, so he wouldn't have to worry about changing history as he knew it.

Yeah, that's the only logical interpretation given what he'd learned about time travel up to then in the movie. He would've had no reason to believe his final time travel would work any differently from all the others.
 
As was pointed out by this article, Avengers Endgame's writers also wrote Avengers Infinity War, all 3 Captain Ametica solo film, and the pilot of Agent Carter (and served as EPs on the show as well), which means that there is significant evidence spread across the latter four projects that supports their viewpoint on things as opposed to the viewpoint of rhe Russo Brothers.

None of those projects are at all relevant to the question of the time travel in Endgame.

And the directors say something else entirely. I'll go with them because what they say makes much more sense.

Not to mention the fact that in interviews it is made clear that they deliberately added content to push the "Back to the Future is bullshit" concept.
 
There are two different types of time travel situations in Endgame: the Time Heist revolves around *removing Infinity Stones from the timeline*, Cap's journey back to Peggy (as well as Hawkeye's test run) is just normal time travel.

The ancient one's branching explanation *explicitly* only applies to removing Infinity stones. That is why the deaths of Thanos and Nebula et al mean nothing, because they all came from a branching timeline that was created by the removal of the power stone from their original timeline. Their deaths would have been noted in their own timeline if Cap hadn't subsequently erased it by returning the power stone, but he did, so none of them ever existed in the first place (except during the brief window of time when they did exist - Time Travel!). None of this can really be disputed based on the actual text of the film.

No explanation is ever given for whether 'regular time travel' creates alternate universes or predestination paradoxes or both/either depending on the circumstances. All of Hulk's scenes are so heavily laymanized that it's impossible to derive any clear rule from anything he says other than the most simplified version: 'you can't change your past', which fits either model. One simply can't rule out the possibility that there was always a second Hulk in New York talking to the Ancient one and that Hawkeye and Black Widow were always on Vormir together and that Thor always had a secret meeting with Frigga and Steve and Tony always wandered around that SHIELD base.

But there are a few different questionable parts to help you choose which explanation you like better:

Loki's escape can't be entirely ruled out as having always happened yet, but it almost certainly will be ruled out when the Loki series is released, and he also can't be easily explained by the infinity stones because no one had taken a stone from New York yet at that point. This is the primary reason I expect the alternate timeline theory will ultimately become undeniable as the mcu moves forward, even though I prefer the fixed timeline theory.

Also, while the events surrounding GotG can't be 100% ruled out as having happened (Star-Lord getting knocked out, Nebula getting weird interference and Thanos seeing some of future nebula's memories), they do seem extremely unlikely. All of this happened, again, before the power stone was removed.

On the other hand, the movie hammers hard on the absolute necessity to 'trim the branches' by returning all the stones after they're done. If alternate timelines existing is totally normal/no big deal, then this aspect of the film makes no sense. Why knowingly return the scepter and the tesseract to Hydra's hands or the Aether to Malekith if you don't actually have to? Why bother to return any of them, really (except the Time Stone, which the Ancient One explicitly wanted back)? The movie never provides any plausible reason except to 'trim the branches'.

There are various fictional cheats which can be imagined - maybe removing any stone anywhere in time ripples all the way forward down the timeline, so Loki and the Guardians were all affected by the removal of the tesseract from the SHIELD base and returning that stone undid literally every other aberration we saw in the film. Maybe removing a stone is so powerful that it screws with reality even to a limited extant before the stone is removed, which could also cover Loki and the Guardians. Or maybe alternate timelines are really normal, but Infinity stone alt. timelines are special and bad and so must be undone, thereby explaining why the need to trim the branches.

For me personally, I choose fixed timeline, because I think Steve's ending is much better if he's always been there than if he goes off to a different universe and because I think it's much more elegant for normal time travel to be explicitly different from the infinity stone alternate universes rather than they all create alternate timelines but some of them are bad. But as I said, while I 100% consider this the best, most logical interpretation of Endgame specifically, I don't think that explanation will remain consistent with where the MCU goes moving forward (through Dr Strange's Multiverse of Madness and Loki's D+ series), so I'll likely have to let go of it eventually.

As for Cap's predestination paradox being out of character, I don't buy that for a second. I think it's entirely believable for him to understand that trying to change certain things could cause something far worse, but - if you truly can't change your past - it wouldn't matter whether he ever gave into temptation or not. He could've tried to save Bucky a dozen times and just never succeeded. He could've fought an entire covert war against Hydra with Peggy's help and the best the two of them could achieve was to keep Hydra from taking over even earlier than TWS. He also could've spent an entire career, in the shadows likely under an assumed name, saving all sorts of people from all sorts of dangers that the audience never knew existed before. There is no reason why Cap going to live in his own past need result in him just permanently retiring and living a normal life for decades.
 
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None of those projects are at all relevant to the question of the time travel in Endgame.

They're completely relevant; the screenwriters have said that Cap was always meant to be Peggy's unseen husband and the father of her children, and since they wrote the scene where he goes back in time, everything else that they ever wrote involving Cap and Peggy is contextually relevant to that subplot.
 
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That's not how movies work. They're collaborative enterprises with multiple creators contributing to the whole. The script is not inviolable holy writ, it's just one ingredient that goes into the recipe.

And as Turtletrekker said, in feature films, the buck stops with the directors (and the executives above them). The writers are responsible for giving the directors what they want, not the other way around.
Of course. But the directors did nothing to contradict what the writers intended and the way it's filmed back that up imo. I think I can safely say 9 out of 10 casual fans would say the same. The Steve we saw had to come from some reality. Coming from ours seems the most logical and in no way contradicts the time travel laws laid out in the film.
 
The Steve we saw had to come from some reality. Coming from ours seems the most logical and in no way contradicts the time travel laws laid out in the film.

Well, yeah, the whole point is that he's the same Steve Rogers we've been following since The First Avenger -- that once he returned the Stones to their alternate timelines, he then went back to live out his life with Peggy in the past, finally getting his happy ending and concluding his character arc. But for the reasons KRAD spells out in the article I linked to, it makes far more sense if he did so in an alternate past. The only way it works for him to have been in the "Earth-616" MCU past is if he consciously avoided doing anything to affect the history he knew -- but as JD and I discussed above, he would've had no reason to do that. Everything he'd experienced in the movie up to that point had told him that going back in time would create an alternate timeline that he could alter without affecting the original past; therefore he would've had no reason not to get involved in events and change them for the better.
 
Well, yeah, the whole point is that he's the same Steve Rogers we've been following since The First Avenger -- that once he returned the Stones to their alternate timelines, he then went back to live out his life with Peggy in the past, finally getting his happy ending and concluding his character arc. But for the reasons KRAD spells out in the article I linked to, it makes far more sense if he did so in an alternate past. The only way it works for him to have been in the "Earth-616" MCU past is if he consciously avoided doing anything to affect the history he knew -- but as JD and I discussed above, he would've had no reason to do that. Everything he'd experienced in the movie up to that point had told him that going back in time would create an alternate timeline that he could alter without affecting the original past; therefore he would've had no reason not to get involved in events and change them for the better.
In your opinion... which contradicts what the writers said and wrote. I'll stick to canon ;)
 
In your opinion... which contradicts what the writers said and wrote. I'll stick to canon ;)
Again, both the directors and the producers opinion on the matter is more relevant than that of the screenwriter.

Also again, I have to ask if he spent his time in the main reality, then where did the shield come from? His original shield was destroyed by Thanos. it obviously came from an alternate reality, and one that Steve must have more than just a little bit of time in. Certainly more time than it would have taken to return a stone.
 
There are two different types of time travel situations in Endgame: the Time Heist revolves around *removing Infinity Stones from the timeline*, Cap's journey back to Peggy (as well as Hawkeye's test run) is just normal time travel.

The ancient one's branching explanation *explicitly* only applies to removing Infinity stones. That is why the deaths of Thanos and Nebula et al mean nothing, because they all came from a branching timeline that was created by the removal of the power stone from their original timeline. Their deaths would have been noted in their own timeline if Cap hadn't subsequently erased it by returning the power stone, but he did, so none of them ever existed in the first place (except during the brief window of time when they did exist - Time Travel!). None of this can really be disputed based on the actual text of the film.

No explanation is ever given for whether 'regular time travel' creates alternate universes or predestination paradoxes or both/either depending on the circumstances. All of Hulk's scenes are so heavily laymanized that it's impossible to derive any clear rule from anything he says other than the most simplified version: 'you can't change your past', which fits either model. One simply can't rule out the possibility that there was always a second Hulk in New York talking to the Ancient one and that Hawkeye and Black Widow were always on Vormir together and that Thor always had a secret meeting with Frigga and Steve and Tony always wandered around that SHIELD base.

But there are a few different questionable parts to help you choose which explanation you like better:

Loki's escape can't be entirely ruled out as having always happened yet, but it almost certainly will be ruled out when the Loki series is released, and he also can't be easily explained by the infinity stones because no one had taken a stone from New York yet at that point. This is the primary reason I expect the alternate timeline theory will ultimately become undeniable as the mcu moves forward, even though I prefer the fixed timeline theory.

Also, while the events surrounding GotG can't be 100% ruled out as having happened (Star-Lord getting knocked out, Nebula getting weird interference and Thanos seeing some of future nebula's memories), they do seem extremely unlikely. All of this happened, again, before the power stone was removed.

On the other hand, the movie hammers hard on the absolute necessity to 'trim the branches' by returning all the stones after they're done. If alternate timelines existing is totally normal/no big deal, then this aspect of the film makes no sense. Why knowingly return the scepter and the tesseract to Hydra's hands or the Aether to Malekith if you don't actually have to? Why bother to return any of them, really (except the Time Stone, which the Ancient One explicitly wanted back)? The movie never provides any plausible reason except to 'trim the branches'.

There are various fictional cheats which can be imagined - maybe removing any stone anywhere in time ripples all the way forward down the timeline, so Loki and the Guardians were all affected by the removal of the tesseract from the SHIELD base and returning that stone undid literally every other aberration we saw in the film. Maybe removing a stone is so powerful that it screws with reality even to a limited extant before the stone is removed, which could also cover Loki and the Guardians. Or maybe alternate timelines are really normal, but Infinity stone alt. timelines are special and bad and so must be undone, thereby explaining why the need to trim the branches.

For me personally, I choose fixed timeline, because I think Steve's ending is much better if he's always been there than if he goes off to a different universe and because I think it's much more elegant for normal time travel to be explicitly different from the infinity stone alternate universes rather than they all create alternate timelines but some of them are bad. But as I said, while I 100% consider this the best, most logical interpretation of Endgame specifically, I don't think that explanation will remain consistent with where the MCU goes moving forward (through Dr Strange's Multiverse of Madness and Loki's D+ series), so I'll likely have to let go of it eventually.

As for Cap's predestination paradox being out of character, I don't buy that for a second. I think it's entirely believable for him to understand that trying to change certain things could cause something far worse, but - if you truly can't change your past - it wouldn't matter whether he ever gave into temptation or not. He could've tried to save Bucky a dozen times and just never succeeded. He could've fought an entire covert war against Hydra with Peggy's help and the best the two of them could achieve was to keep Hydra from taking over even earlier than TWS. He also could've spent an entire career, in the shadows likely under an assumed name, saving all sorts of people from all sorts of dangers that the audience never knew existed before. There is no reason why Cap going to live in his own past need result in him just permanently retiring and living a normal life for decades.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

In other words, that largely lines up with my own thoughts and feelings about how time travel may or may not work in Endgame (until it changes in the future). Thank you for taking the time of typing all that out. :D
 
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Again, both the directors and the producers opinion on the matter is more relevant than that of the screenwriter.

Also again, I have to ask if he spent his time in the main reality, then where did the shield come from? His original shield was destroyed by Thanos. it obviously came from an alternate reality, and one that Steve must have more than just a little bit of time in. Certainly more time than it would have taken to return a stone.
The shield was from Wakanda. The inlaid design gives it away. And again, what the directors presented on screen in no way contradicts the writers intention or what they wrote.
 
As far as I know, whenever Kevin Feige gets asked which interpretation is correct, he just doesn't answer. I think that tells us everything we need to know about which interpretation is the canonically correct one.
 
Again, both the directors and the producers opinion on the matter is more relevant than that of the screenwriter.

Not when we have numerous evidence indicating that the screenwriters had been planning - and seeding - the scene of Cap going back in time to Peggy across every other thing they had previously writtrn involving both of those characters.
 
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