Lost from the beginning (NO SPOILERS)
- Thread starter OdoWanKenobi
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The first time I saw the episode, I was actually underwhelmed. It seemed like filler, just them moving from one place to another. Once everything is revealed by the season finale, though, you realize this a major and very important episode.
Count me in. I would love to watch that.
It is definitely one of the episodes to be reconsidered in light of later events, though I suspect that could be said of the majority of Lost episodes.
That being said, I wonder whether this is a little spoiler'ish...but when it comes to that sort of thing I tend to err on the side of caution.
Some Like it Hoth:
This episode has some good moments, but is kind of a break from the action. This time we get a flashback focusing on Miles. He has daddy issues. Wow, never seen that on Lost before.
Oh yeah, and his daddy is Doctor Chang. What? A character has a coincidental connection to another previously introduced character? Never seen that on this show either. Saracasm aside, those two really are just par for the course by this point. Part of the flavor of the show, I guess.
On the island in 1977, Miles is tasked by Horace to take a package to Radzinsky. This package turns out to be a body bag, and Radzinsky has a body to put in it. Radzinsky claims the guy fell in a ditch to which Miles dryly responds: "He has a bullet in his head. Did the ditch have a gun?"
Miles does his ghost whispering thing and finds that the guy was killed by a filling in his mouth being shot through his brain. Ooooooh. The magnet from the swan? After returning the body to Horace, Miles is asked to take it to Dr. Chang at the Orchid. Hurley tags along for the ride.
Everyone else has their own problems, as well. Miles forgot to erase the tape with Sawyer and Kate taking Ben to the Others. Phil finds it, and confronts Sawyer, demanding answers. Instead, he get a blow to the head and tied up. They've crossed the point of no return, now. Sawyer and Juliet's quiet little life is over.
Back with Miles and Hurley, now. Dr. Chang isn't happy that Hurley tagged along, and threatens him with polar bear dung duty if he blabs a word of this. Then he has them take him to the Swan. Along the way, Hurley keeps on dropping hints as to Miles's identity, much to his annoyance. At the Swan, they drop off the Doc, and see the hatch being built. Hmmm, the season finale is called "The Incident." With them showing the construction of the Swan, I think I know what incident they may be referring to.
On the way back to the barracks, Miles finally gets fed up with Hurley and nabs the notebook he's been writing in this whole time. Hurley has been writing his own version of the Empire Strikes Back. His logic is that since it's 1977, Star Wars has just come out, and Lucas will be looking for a sequel. He's hoping he can negate the existence of Ewoks. I say don't mess with perfection (ESB, that is. Not Ewoks.) Finally, Dr. Chang has Miles go pick up some scientists that have just arrived via the sub. One of them is Daniel. Oh yeah, he had disappeared for a while, hadn't he? With all that was going on, I hadn't really noticed. Well, it's good to have him back.
This episode has some good moments, but is kind of a break from the action. This time we get a flashback focusing on Miles. He has daddy issues. Wow, never seen that on Lost before.
Oh yeah, and his daddy is Doctor Chang. What? A character has a coincidental connection to another previously introduced character? Never seen that on this show either. Saracasm aside, those two really are just par for the course by this point. Part of the flavor of the show, I guess. On the island in 1977, Miles is tasked by Horace to take a package to Radzinsky. This package turns out to be a body bag, and Radzinsky has a body to put in it. Radzinsky claims the guy fell in a ditch to which Miles dryly responds: "He has a bullet in his head. Did the ditch have a gun?"
Miles does his ghost whispering thing and finds that the guy was killed by a filling in his mouth being shot through his brain. Ooooooh. The magnet from the swan? After returning the body to Horace, Miles is asked to take it to Dr. Chang at the Orchid. Hurley tags along for the ride.Everyone else has their own problems, as well. Miles forgot to erase the tape with Sawyer and Kate taking Ben to the Others. Phil finds it, and confronts Sawyer, demanding answers. Instead, he get a blow to the head and tied up. They've crossed the point of no return, now. Sawyer and Juliet's quiet little life is over.
Back with Miles and Hurley, now. Dr. Chang isn't happy that Hurley tagged along, and threatens him with polar bear dung duty if he blabs a word of this. Then he has them take him to the Swan. Along the way, Hurley keeps on dropping hints as to Miles's identity, much to his annoyance. At the Swan, they drop off the Doc, and see the hatch being built. Hmmm, the season finale is called "The Incident." With them showing the construction of the Swan, I think I know what incident they may be referring to.
On the way back to the barracks, Miles finally gets fed up with Hurley and nabs the notebook he's been writing in this whole time. Hurley has been writing his own version of the Empire Strikes Back. His logic is that since it's 1977, Star Wars has just come out, and Lucas will be looking for a sequel. He's hoping he can negate the existence of Ewoks. I say don't mess with perfection (ESB, that is. Not Ewoks.) Finally, Dr. Chang has Miles go pick up some scientists that have just arrived via the sub. One of them is Daniel. Oh yeah, he had disappeared for a while, hadn't he? With all that was going on, I hadn't really noticed. Well, it's good to have him back.
Phil is an unbelieveable moron. "Have you shown that tape to Horace yet?" "Not yet. I wanted to first talk--" SMACK! Phil deserved that just for being so dumb.
I thought it was cool seeing the engraving of the Hatch with the Numbers but once you get passed the cool factor it dons on you how much of a thud that they were just serial numbers--Back in S1's with that big ominous reveal it felt like there had to be a reason to have them on there but now the explanation is lame.
The Miles story was just okay--I think I like it more than most. But once again it is the puzzle pieces introduced that are more engrossing especially Bram snatching Miles, telling him not to go on Widmore's expedition to the island and then that he knows how/why Miles is special. Couldn't wait to find out about this.
The Miles story was just okay--I think I like it more than most. But once again it is the puzzle pieces introduced that are more engrossing especially Bram snatching Miles, telling him not to go on Widmore's expedition to the island and then that he knows how/why Miles is special. Couldn't wait to find out about this.
It's kind of weird watching someone watching the series so quickly. Part of the fun for me was all the theroies about what was going on, which only really comes with the time between seasons / episodes.
Do you have any theroies about what is really going on?
With "The Incident" coming up, I have a couple of questions for you, if you wouldn't mind answering.
1. Do you have any theroies on the nature of the island (what is it?)
2. Who / what is Jacob?
3. What is the smoke monster?
4. Is Ben as he claims, one of the good guys?
5. What is the best episode of the series so far?
6. Who is your favortie charecter so far?
7. What is the most pressing questions you would like to see an answer to before the end of the series?
Do you have any theroies about what is really going on?
With "The Incident" coming up, I have a couple of questions for you, if you wouldn't mind answering.
1. Do you have any theroies on the nature of the island (what is it?)
2. Who / what is Jacob?
3. What is the smoke monster?
4. Is Ben as he claims, one of the good guys?
5. What is the best episode of the series so far?
6. Who is your favortie charecter so far?
7. What is the most pressing questions you would like to see an answer to before the end of the series?
Sure, why not?
I watched The Variable and Follow the Leader, but I need to be heading off to bed. I'll have my write-ups on them sometime tomorrow.
Well, there's certainly something not natural going on there. I think the island itself probably has some kind of spirit. Something compelled the Oceanic Six to return. Most likely something supernatural.
Now there's a real question. I honestly don't know. My best guess right now is that he's some kind of ancient guardian on the island. He's probably sick of the job, too and want some release from it, hence the "help me" to Locke. Is that why these people were brought here, maybe? To find a suitable replacement for Jacob?
Well, easiest explanation is guardian of the temple. If it is the smoke monster that is Christian, then he's also in the service of Jacob.
Ben is out to help Ben. Period. End of Story. If aligning with the survivors furthers that goal, then so be it. Hell, if aligning with Whidmore would further that goal, he would do it.
Well, that's a hard one. It's between "Through the Looking Glass" and "The Shape of Things to Come" for me.
Another hard question. I don't have one single favorite. Ben, Locke, and Desmond are the ones that stand out the most.
There seems to be a higher reason than coincidence for the castaways being brought here. What is it?
I watched The Variable and Follow the Leader, but I need to be heading off to bed. I'll have my write-ups on them sometime tomorrow.
Um...yeah. Why on earth would I just stop the show at the end of the fifth season? I'll just have to wait for my season six blu-rays to arrive from Amazon.
Alrighty, then. Moving on:
The Variable:
Daniel is back, and he's back with some answers. Daniel has some mommy issues, this time. Oh hey, another Lost character that has problems with their parents. Eloise pushes Daniel to use his intellect, instead of going after what makes him happy. This continues throughout his life. We rejoin him a little later in his life. It looks like Daniel's experiments had a bad side effect on him. He's gone all Memento. He gets a visit from Whidmore, who tells him there is an island that can cure him. Eloise also encourages Daniel to go. I'm trying to remember now if Daniel was showing any signs of said condition at the beginning of season four. Perhaps he had already been "healed" before he dropped on the island.
On the island, Daniel goes to speak to Jack. He's acting strangely. He tells Jack that none of them were ever meant to be here. Jack has been moving closer and closer to the "man of faith" path as of late. Hearing this from Daniel makes him question a lot. Daniel then has Miles drive him to the Orchid, where he takes his place in the events we saw way back at the beginning of the season. Afterward, he tails Dr. Chang and tries to convince him to evacuate the island, spilling the beans that they are from the future. Chang is understandably skeptical. Daniel seems to be trying to change the future. Whatever happened to "whatever happened, happened?"
Daniel claims to have the answer to that. He thinks that the survivors are variables in the equation, and that the future can in fact be changed. His intent is to detonate the hydrogen bomb in order ton destroy the electromagnetic energy beneath the Swan and stop the incident from ever happening. This would have the effect of keeping Flight 815 from ever crashing. Before leaving the barracks to find the Others, Daniel disproves his own theory a bit by talking to young Charlotte, and telling her that she needs to leave the island. Considering that Charlotte told him that he spoke to her when she was young, how could he think things would turn out differently this time?
They end up having to fight their way out of the barracks, away from trigger happy Radzinsky. It's too bad I already know that this guy ends up as a stain on the Swan's ceiling, because I really want to see him die. So, it's on to the Others' camp. Daniel picks the absolute wrong way to go in there: with a gun pointed at everyone. What the hell did he think was going to happen? Richard at the very least has proven himself to be reasonable. Why would Daniel think he would need that gun? It turns out to be his undoing. He's shot in the back, and he dies. It's Eloise doing the shooting, which means in the future when she sent him to island, she knew she was sending him to his death at her hands. How tragic. I'll miss Daniel. He was my favorite of the freighter crew, and added a great new level of mystery to the show.
Follow the Leader:
The pieces are moving in to place for the finale, once again.
Jack and Kate get caught by the Others. Eloise is willing to hear them out, though. Killing your future son, and finding a journal with a dedication you haven't written yet will make a believer out of anyone. With Daniel dead, Jack is now making it his mission to detonate the nuke. It looks like he's got Eloise on board, too. Kate, however, wants no part of this and tries to leave. The Others are not happy about this, but she's rescued by Sayid. She heads back to the barracks to get on the sub to leave.
At the barracks, Radzinsky finds Phil tied up in Sawyer's closet and take Sawyer and Juliet hostage. Hurley, Miles, and Jin try to escape only to be found by Dr. Chang. He's not interested in stopping them, though. He's looking for answers. He asks Hurley some perfect questions: What is his birthday? Who is President. When Hurley can't answer them, Chang seems satisfied that they are from the future. We've got another convert to the cause it seems. Chang orders the evacuation of the island, and Sawyer and Juliet are placed on the sub. They seem to actually be happy with this turn of events. Even if it is 1977, they'll be free from Dharma on the mainland, and can have a life together. They get considerably less happy when Kate shows up on the sub, though.
In the present day, Locke's party arrives at the Others' camp. Sun shows Richard the 1977 Dharma picture, and he says he saw all of these people die. Oh crap. Well, I'm going to just go and assume they're not killing off the majority of the cast, so either Richard is mistaken, or history actually will be changed.
Locke, Ben, and Richard take off into the jungle together. Locke has Richard rescue his past self in another callback way to the beginning of the season. Locke also still thinks that Ben has never truly seen Jacob. Ben seems to confirm it as well. Looks like Ben isn't as special as he thinks. Back at the camp, Locke decides it's time to go see Jacob, and he takes everyone with him. Richard is not happy about this, and tells Ben his misgivings. Ben, being Locke's new lapdog, passes this on to Locke. Locke tells Ben his true reason for wanting to see Jacob. Namely: he wants to kill him. Whoa. Now, I know Jacob is all mysterious and overlordy, but maybe Locke is overreacting just a tad? That is, of course, assuming this is Locke at all. I'm still not entirely convinced of that one.
Well, this episode is really the setup for the finale. So I'll see you all in a few hours. I'm off to watch it right now.
The Variable:
Daniel is back, and he's back with some answers. Daniel has some mommy issues, this time. Oh hey, another Lost character that has problems with their parents. Eloise pushes Daniel to use his intellect, instead of going after what makes him happy. This continues throughout his life. We rejoin him a little later in his life. It looks like Daniel's experiments had a bad side effect on him. He's gone all Memento. He gets a visit from Whidmore, who tells him there is an island that can cure him. Eloise also encourages Daniel to go. I'm trying to remember now if Daniel was showing any signs of said condition at the beginning of season four. Perhaps he had already been "healed" before he dropped on the island.
On the island, Daniel goes to speak to Jack. He's acting strangely. He tells Jack that none of them were ever meant to be here. Jack has been moving closer and closer to the "man of faith" path as of late. Hearing this from Daniel makes him question a lot. Daniel then has Miles drive him to the Orchid, where he takes his place in the events we saw way back at the beginning of the season. Afterward, he tails Dr. Chang and tries to convince him to evacuate the island, spilling the beans that they are from the future. Chang is understandably skeptical. Daniel seems to be trying to change the future. Whatever happened to "whatever happened, happened?"
Daniel claims to have the answer to that. He thinks that the survivors are variables in the equation, and that the future can in fact be changed. His intent is to detonate the hydrogen bomb in order ton destroy the electromagnetic energy beneath the Swan and stop the incident from ever happening. This would have the effect of keeping Flight 815 from ever crashing. Before leaving the barracks to find the Others, Daniel disproves his own theory a bit by talking to young Charlotte, and telling her that she needs to leave the island. Considering that Charlotte told him that he spoke to her when she was young, how could he think things would turn out differently this time?
They end up having to fight their way out of the barracks, away from trigger happy Radzinsky. It's too bad I already know that this guy ends up as a stain on the Swan's ceiling, because I really want to see him die. So, it's on to the Others' camp. Daniel picks the absolute wrong way to go in there: with a gun pointed at everyone. What the hell did he think was going to happen? Richard at the very least has proven himself to be reasonable. Why would Daniel think he would need that gun? It turns out to be his undoing. He's shot in the back, and he dies. It's Eloise doing the shooting, which means in the future when she sent him to island, she knew she was sending him to his death at her hands. How tragic. I'll miss Daniel. He was my favorite of the freighter crew, and added a great new level of mystery to the show.
Follow the Leader:
The pieces are moving in to place for the finale, once again.
Jack and Kate get caught by the Others. Eloise is willing to hear them out, though. Killing your future son, and finding a journal with a dedication you haven't written yet will make a believer out of anyone. With Daniel dead, Jack is now making it his mission to detonate the nuke. It looks like he's got Eloise on board, too. Kate, however, wants no part of this and tries to leave. The Others are not happy about this, but she's rescued by Sayid. She heads back to the barracks to get on the sub to leave.
At the barracks, Radzinsky finds Phil tied up in Sawyer's closet and take Sawyer and Juliet hostage. Hurley, Miles, and Jin try to escape only to be found by Dr. Chang. He's not interested in stopping them, though. He's looking for answers. He asks Hurley some perfect questions: What is his birthday? Who is President. When Hurley can't answer them, Chang seems satisfied that they are from the future. We've got another convert to the cause it seems. Chang orders the evacuation of the island, and Sawyer and Juliet are placed on the sub. They seem to actually be happy with this turn of events. Even if it is 1977, they'll be free from Dharma on the mainland, and can have a life together. They get considerably less happy when Kate shows up on the sub, though.
In the present day, Locke's party arrives at the Others' camp. Sun shows Richard the 1977 Dharma picture, and he says he saw all of these people die. Oh crap. Well, I'm going to just go and assume they're not killing off the majority of the cast, so either Richard is mistaken, or history actually will be changed.
Locke, Ben, and Richard take off into the jungle together. Locke has Richard rescue his past self in another callback way to the beginning of the season. Locke also still thinks that Ben has never truly seen Jacob. Ben seems to confirm it as well. Looks like Ben isn't as special as he thinks. Back at the camp, Locke decides it's time to go see Jacob, and he takes everyone with him. Richard is not happy about this, and tells Ben his misgivings. Ben, being Locke's new lapdog, passes this on to Locke. Locke tells Ben his true reason for wanting to see Jacob. Namely: he wants to kill him. Whoa. Now, I know Jacob is all mysterious and overlordy, but maybe Locke is overreacting just a tad? That is, of course, assuming this is Locke at all. I'm still not entirely convinced of that one.
Well, this episode is really the setup for the finale. So I'll see you all in a few hours. I'm off to watch it right now.
I enjoyed these two episodes.
Daniel's death was again more of a plot point that served to push the story in the direction it needed to go and not a death with a lot of emotional resonance owing in part to several factors--him being offscreen for several episodes and the way it happened so abruptly with no real time given to it for the audience to be impacted by it. Don't get me wrong I liked Daniel--he was good at spewing technobabble and exposition and having a screen presence but at the end of the day he was yet just another cog in the Lost Plot Wheel in my opinion. And while it was a neat idea that everything Eloise did all of Dan's life was to bring him to this moment I'm not sure I buy it completely.
We also find out that all the times Eloise talked about "destiny" she was really referring to future events she learned of from Daniel's journal hence her telling Penny that first time in a long time she didn't know what was to happen next. We get confirmation Widmore is indeed Dan's dad.
We also see that Richard may appear immortal but he was clearly fearing for his life when Dan pulled the gun on him--so he can obviously die. And then we saw him building a ship in a bottle--the Black Rock--pretty much removing all doubt he was aboard it somehow. Also nice to learn Jacob did this to him and is an Advisor within the Others.
I knew Jughead would come back into the story before the season was over but I wasn't sure how it would play into it but here we learn how finally--but I'm not sure if I buy Dan's logic--basically if you think you can because of free will you can which apparently they hadn't before.--A bit dodgy but I went along with it.
I love when the writers and I are on the same wavelength--I was curious since the first of the season how Richard knew John was injured with a bullet and how he knew to tell him to get the Six back--here we learn future John did--leading to a Star Trek like time loop where the cause created the effect which created the cause. This also led to an interesting scene of Locke seeing himself.
I also wondered where the Others were in 2007 and here again we get the answer. I liked that.
I had believed Sun/John/Ben's storyline before these episodes was heading for them finding a way back into the past to retrieve the others and return them to the future but it seemed now that was on hold and the whole "John as Others leader" which had seemed to be heading towards a S5 storyline took a backseat and now seems to have come back to the forefront with him confidently striding in and giving orders. What is he up to and why does he want to kill Jacob?
I was excited to hear Jacob's name being dropped back into the story although I had guarded excitement--would we finally meet Jacob and were is he? the cabin? What is he? Is he the ghostly spectre? Is he an avatar for the island? Is he and the island two separate entities?
I also was relieved to see the writers reassuring us that the statue was not forgotten when they had Sun ask Ben what happened to it. Neat seeing Sun meeting Richard.
Daniel's death was again more of a plot point that served to push the story in the direction it needed to go and not a death with a lot of emotional resonance owing in part to several factors--him being offscreen for several episodes and the way it happened so abruptly with no real time given to it for the audience to be impacted by it. Don't get me wrong I liked Daniel--he was good at spewing technobabble and exposition and having a screen presence but at the end of the day he was yet just another cog in the Lost Plot Wheel in my opinion. And while it was a neat idea that everything Eloise did all of Dan's life was to bring him to this moment I'm not sure I buy it completely.
We also find out that all the times Eloise talked about "destiny" she was really referring to future events she learned of from Daniel's journal hence her telling Penny that first time in a long time she didn't know what was to happen next. We get confirmation Widmore is indeed Dan's dad.
We also see that Richard may appear immortal but he was clearly fearing for his life when Dan pulled the gun on him--so he can obviously die. And then we saw him building a ship in a bottle--the Black Rock--pretty much removing all doubt he was aboard it somehow. Also nice to learn Jacob did this to him and is an Advisor within the Others.
I knew Jughead would come back into the story before the season was over but I wasn't sure how it would play into it but here we learn how finally--but I'm not sure if I buy Dan's logic--basically if you think you can because of free will you can which apparently they hadn't before.--A bit dodgy but I went along with it.
I love when the writers and I are on the same wavelength--I was curious since the first of the season how Richard knew John was injured with a bullet and how he knew to tell him to get the Six back--here we learn future John did--leading to a Star Trek like time loop where the cause created the effect which created the cause. This also led to an interesting scene of Locke seeing himself.
I also wondered where the Others were in 2007 and here again we get the answer. I liked that.
I had believed Sun/John/Ben's storyline before these episodes was heading for them finding a way back into the past to retrieve the others and return them to the future but it seemed now that was on hold and the whole "John as Others leader" which had seemed to be heading towards a S5 storyline took a backseat and now seems to have come back to the forefront with him confidently striding in and giving orders. What is he up to and why does he want to kill Jacob?
I was excited to hear Jacob's name being dropped back into the story although I had guarded excitement--would we finally meet Jacob and were is he? the cabin? What is he? Is he the ghostly spectre? Is he an avatar for the island? Is he and the island two separate entities?
I also was relieved to see the writers reassuring us that the statue was not forgotten when they had Sun ask Ben what happened to it. Neat seeing Sun meeting Richard.
I can't imagine what it must be like to know while pregnant with your child that you will ultimately kill him and there's nothing you can do about it because it already happened. The snake eating its own tail.
I really look forward to rewatching this one once I have the Blu Ray set.
I really look forward to rewatching this one once I have the Blu Ray set.
Odo, did you realize the the young blonde girl from "Judhead" was Eloise? Or were you as dense as I was and didn't realize it until "Follow the Leader?"
I figured it out it was Ellie only because when I was originally watching the episode ABC was airing the previous week's episode with those pop ups at the bottom of the screen and I caught the tail end of ep 5.2 where it referred to her as "Eloise" so when I heard her being called Ellie in "Jughead" I knew it was her.
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