Lorca: Fans Will Have To Adjust

[Jedi_Master]

Am I wrong that Beethoven's Fifth centres around an 8 notes motif? That's just too short to be interesting, I don't need to hear it.

Am I wrong that Starship Troopers is about space soldiers fighting big bugs? That's just a stupid concept, I don't need to see it.

Am I wrong that those lads that made Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band also wrote lyrics like 'She loves you, yeah yeah yeah'. I don't need to hear it then, it's just awfully simplistic.

What I'm getting at is you think you know a film or series by putting some pieces of information together, but what you do is selectevily isolate certain elements and you miss out on the maker's intention. In any case, it is literally your loss...

There is something to be said for the idea of previewing content and deciding that YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE IT, EVEN IF EVERYBODY else thinks its great.
I am that way with Game Of Thrones... spectacularly reviewed show, pop culture phenomenon, loved by millions... not for me. I haven't seen an episode, and don't plan to - I know from the information I have reviewed, I don't want to see it.... that being said, I don't doubt that it is fantastic television, but just not for me.

I respect someone who takes in information, and makes a PERSONAL decision not to watch or read or listen to something. What I object to is the desire by some fans to deride something they haven't seen, based on some one else's information. I don't attack GoT, I simply don't watch it... I would hope that others would do the same about Discovery... but it seems more popular to bash and attack than to evaluate and decide.

 

[Vger23]

There is a FB group that has tried various means to derail the subscription numbers for CBS...and they have been spectacularly unsuccessful. When it was revealed that Netflix money had 'basically paid for' the production of DSC, that made it practically impossible for any fan boycott to have an effect.

This idea of fan control goes back to the (partial) myth that a letter-writing campaign "saved" Trek.
So for decades, Trek fans have been convinced they hold the power, and even the cancellation of ENT, and the creation of nuTrek have not disabused them of that notion. Once again... it goes back to relevance. It's VERY important, in their minds, to be relevant.

Right.

It's that "we own the franchise" mentality that stinks the place up the most.

 

[Krandor]

There is a FB group that has tried various means to derail the subscription numbers for CBS...and they have been spectacularly unsuccessful. When it was revealed that Netflix money had 'basically paid for' the production of DSC, that made it practically impossible for any fan boycott to have an effect.

This idea of fan control goes back to the (partial) myth that a letter-writing campaign "saved" Trek.
So for decades, Trek fans have been convinced they hold the power, and even the cancellation of ENT, and the creation of nuTrek have not disabused them of that notion. Once again... it goes back to relevance. It's VERY important, in their minds, to be relevant.

As yes the people who thought that if discovery ddin't get viewers then it would make cbs listen to the fans and change the fan film guidelines. When the reality is if doiscovery dosn't get viewers it will simply be gone. It isn't going to suddenly make CBS want to listen to the fans

If some fans had their way we'd be getting an axanar series which is all pew pew with a garth sue main character. Fans don't always have the right ideas about things.

 

[Campe]

And at the end of the day, If they don't want to pay for CBSAA, cool! That's their prerogative. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with people having concerns about the new series. I don't have a problem with people voicing them.

I do have a problem with them voicing the same opinions incessantly. Not only that but thinking they're a bigger Star Trek fan than me because they don't want to watch this. I mean, if we all agreed on exactly the same of what the best Star Trek movies and episodes were? It'd be a pretty boring fandom. We can disagree. But can't we be respectful about it? Sometimes, people on both sides seem to forget that.

 

[Cake]

Fans will have to get used to the changes. “I don’t mean to sound irreverent when I say I don’t care about the die-hard Trek fans,” said Isaacs. “I only ‘don’t care’ about them in the sense that I know they’re all going to watch anyway. I look forward to having the fun of them being outraged, so they can sit up all night and talk about it with each other.”

This reminds me of the Stargate producers, writers and a few actors some years ago. They also said that those old hardcore Stargate fans don't really matter and assumed they would watch everything with the name Stargate on it either way. And with all the new young viewers their new take on Stargate would attract, Stargate Universe would be for sure a success. It would be definitely more successful than Stargate Atlantis, which was cancelled in favour of SGU despite having increasing ratings from season 4 to season 5. In the end SGU's ratings sank like a stone very fast. Their new take on Stargate drove old fans away and the numerous new viewers they were counting on didn't appear. So already the second half of the first season of SGU had a worse ratings average than season 5 of SGA. And season 2 had another big ratings drop, so the series was cancelled. In the end according to the main producer of the series, it wasn't the crap quality of SGU which made it end so soon. Instead he blamed old Stargate fans, the ones who he didn't care about two years earlier.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/1/...me-for-lousy-stargate-universe-ratings/71114/

Now I don't expect that DIS will have the same fate as SGU. For once it is hard to produce something as crap as season 1 of SGU. So chances are high that DIS will be better. I also think there are more Star Trek fans out there than Stargate fans and because DIS won't be on TV, they don't need countless million TV viewers for it to be a success. And of course it helps that Netflix is willing to pay a lot of money to CBS for the international rights.

But if my predictions are wrong and DIS will be a flop and won't last more than two seasons, claims that old fans will watch no matter what will look in hindsight kind of stupid. There is really no guarantee for it. Caprica didn't even survive more than one season. Or just look at CSI: Cyber. It lasted two seasons and they weren't even seasons with a lot of episodes. The three previous CSI series on the other hand had 15, 10 and 9 seasons. A spin-off can never really take old fans for granted. They might watch or they won't. Both can happen.

 

[Lord Garth]

There is a Middle Ground here. No, fans don't own the property, the creators do, and the talent helps to make it happen. But, at the same time, you don't have to go out of your way to intentionally piss people off.

You do the best you can to please everyone and if they don't like it then it's on them, not you. You did your best to make the best show possible but it's out of passion for the project and a sense of artistic integrity. Not that you want to piss people off.

There's also the human element. No one likes to be told, "We're just going to take you for granted." That's not Star Trek. That's Real Life. Do you like to be told "We just take you for granted" at work or in your family?

There are going to be fans who will be irate no matter what, that's a fact, but that doesn't mean others have to add fuel to the fire. It's not helping anything and it's not going to make the average person watch any more or less. All they care about is what they put on. Not one group of people taunting another.

Plus, we're in uncharted territory. If people are going to pay, you have to make them want to pay. It doesn't make sense to antagonize customers who you want to see pay. How would you like to go into a store and see an employee treat you like crap because they think you'll shop there anyway?

 

[Jedi_Master]

This reminds me of the Stargate producers, writers and a few actors some years ago. They also said that those old hardcore Stargate fans don't really matter and assumed they would watch everything with the name Stargate on it either way. And with all the new young viewers their new take on Stargate would attract, Stargate Universe would be for sure a success. It would be definitely more successful than Stargate Atlantis, which was cancelled in favour of SGU despite having increasing ratings from season 4 to season 5. In the end SGU's ratings sank like a stone very fast. Their new take on Stargate drove old fans away and the numerous new viewers they were counting on didn't appear. So already the second half of the first season of SGU had a worse ratings average than season 5 of SGA. And season 2 had another big ratings drop, so the series was cancelled. In the end according to the main producer of the series, it wasn't the crap quality of SGU which made it end so soon. Instead he blamed old Stargate fans, the ones who he didn't care about two years earlier.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/1/...me-for-lousy-stargate-universe-ratings/71114/

Now I don't expect that DIS will have the same fate as SGU. For once it is hard to produce something as crap as season 1 of SGU. So chances are high that DIS will be better. I also think there are more Star Trek fans out there than Stargate fans and because DIS won't be on TV, they don't need countless million TV viewers for it to be a success. And of course it helps that Netflix is willing to pay a lot of money to CBS for the international rights.

But if my predictions are wrong and DIS will be a flop and won't last more than two seasons, claims that old fans will watch no matter what will look in hindsight kind of stupid. There is really no guarantee for it. Caprica didn't even survive more than one season. Or just look at CSI: Cyber. It lasted two seasons and they weren't even seasons with a lot of episodes. The three previous CSI series on the other hand had 15, 10 and 9 seasons. A spin-off can never really take old fans for granted. They might watch or they won't. Both can happen.

Co-relation doesn't prove causation.

 

[Roald]

There is something to be said for the idea of previewing content and deciding that YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE IT, EVEN IF EVERYBODY else thinks its great.
I am that way with Game Of Thrones... spectacularly reviewed show, pop culture phenomenon, loved by millions... not for me. I haven't seen an episode, and don't plan to - I know from the information I have reviewed, I don't want to see it.... that being said, I don't doubt that it is fantastic television, but just not for me.

I respect someone who takes in information, and makes a PERSONAL decision not to watch or read or listen to something. What I object to is the desire by some fans to deride something they haven't seen, based on some one else's information. I don't attack GoT, I simply don't watch it... I would hope that others would do the same about Discovery... but it seems more popular to bash and attack than to evaluate and decide.

Agree 100%... but you're not active in GOT forums posting over and over how the white walkers look awful... there is a difference..

 

[slappy]

Those people deserved it.

They really didn't. Contrary to the narrative they tried to spin, people were never simply upset that they rebooted Ghostbusters with an all-female cast. That was complete BS. People were upset because they didn't get the movie they'd wanted for 30 years.....Ghostbusters 3. The fandom flame burned all these years based on the desire to get that movie made, not just any movie named Ghostbusters. Instead they got a remake with the sole initial selling point that all the leads would be female for no other purpose than "hey look!"

In order to spin their mistake, they took one or two errant sexist comments from some nitwits they could dig up from Twitter and tried to paint any male who complained as a sexist. It actually worked to some degree. They shamed people into silence but it still didn't save their movie.

So the point stands. Why trash your fanbase? JJ Abrams pleased alot of people with his movies, upset some, but he never outright disrespected the fans.

Going "I'm not like those fans!" and holding yourself up to be superior is no better than those who complain about Trek all the time.

Nope.

I'd say "nice try..." but, not really.

I'd say she pretty much nailed it actually.

I find nothing more loathesome than a self-hating fan. The ones that side with anybody who takes a shot at their love for a genre, as though it gives them cool points. You're not better a nerd in their eyes than any of the rest. In pro wrestling, it's the most common. Fans will call other fans "marks" which is a old school derogatory term for someone who doesn't care that it's fake, but takes the presentation seriously.

Isaac doesn't really bother me at all and I have not pre-judged this show because that's silly to do. However, he could've easily just kept his mouth shut.

 

[uniderth]

My point ST: D starts 2 to 3 years AFTER what was seen in the episode "The Cage" - as per the first Season TOS episode "The Menagerie" the inciidents on Talos IV (per Spock) "occurred 13 years ago". TNG changed it's uniforms by the third season - they were changed again for DS9's first season (what would have been TNG's 8th) - and CHANGED again for DS9's 5th Season (as shown above). Starfleet seems to have a habit of cjhhanging their uniforn design every few years.

Conclusion: You'll have to find something else, because sorry - until ST: D we had no on screen photo of what a Starfleet uniform looked like 10 years prior to TOS. Just fanon assumptions.

Your assumption that Discovery takes place two or three years AFTER "The Cage" is also a fanon assumption. We don't know how long into Kirk and Spock's five year mission the "13 years ago" statement was made. "The Cage" very well could be taking place at the exact same time as Discovery.

In any case you're using circular logic to support the Discovery uniforms: The Discovery Uniforms look like that, so clearly the Discovery Uniforms must look like that.

We have "The Cage" uniforms and the 99% identical "WNMHGB" uniforms. So we know what the uniforms looked like before and after Discovery, therefore we have a pretty good idea of what they should look like during Discovery.

It seems far more likely that they continued using the same uniform through all those years; than they switched to a new uniform and then back to an old uniform.

Other instances of uniform change are different because there was no reference point after the show. What does a Starfleet uniform look like in 2360's. No body knew in '87.

Now maybe Discovery will role out "The Cage" style uniforms in season two or something. That would be awesome. But until then my opinion can only be informed by what evidence I have right now.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I find nothing more loathesome than a self-hating fan. The ones that side with anybody who takes a shot at their love for a genre, as though it gives them cool points. You're not better a nerd in their eyes than any of the rest. In pro wrestling, it's the most common. Fans will call other fans "marks" which is a old school derogatory term for someone who doesn't care that it's fake, but takes the presentation seriously.

Isn't liking stuff the point of being a "fan"?

"Critics" get paid to review each new piece of material from a neutral stance, judging it on the various merits and metrics the critic subscribes to, but FANS are predisposed to LIKE whatever material is produced for the genre, show, or films of which they are FANS.

 

[Vger23]

And at the end of the day, If they don't want to pay for CBSAA, cool! That's their prerogative. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with people having concerns about the new series. I don't have a problem with people voicing them.

I do have a problem with them voicing the same opinions incessantly. Not only that but thinking they're a bigger Star Trek fan than me because they don't want to watch this. I mean, if we all agreed on exactly the same of what the best Star Trek movies and episodes were? It'd be a pretty boring fandom. We can disagree. But can't we be respectful about it? Sometimes, people on both sides seem to forget that.

I agree with this to a large extent.

However...what I think I REALLY have a problem with is not just the stuff you mention:

It's the fact that the hate-spew is actually designed to derail the project by spreading bad word of mouth. So, it's not just people voicing their opinions (because that's ok, as you mention!) and it's not just people having concerns. It's mainly people who ACTIVELY want the show to fail and are trying to make that happen.

That's where I draw the line for my tolerance. Because, it's easy for you as a hater to just not watch...but why do you need to destroy the show for millions of others who might actually really love it?

Yup...that's where my blood pressure goes through the roof.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I agree with this to a large extent.

However...what I think I REALLY have a problem with is not just the stuff you mention:

It's the fact that the hate-spew is actually designed to derail the project by spreading bad word of mouth. So, it's not just people voicing their opinions (because that's ok, as you mention!) and it's not just people having concerns. It's mainly people who ACTIVELY want the show to fail and are trying to make that happen.

That's where I draw the line for my tolerance. Because, it's easy for you as a hater to just not watch...but why do you need to destroy the show for millions of others who might actually really love it?

Yup...that's where my blood pressure goes through the roof.

Correct. At it's heart it's a very selfish perspective. "I don't like so NO ONE deserves to have it."

 

[cultcross]

But am I wrong that having Spock go back into an alternative timeline created by the main villain Nero going back in time, was a plot point of the movie?

It is, it was added so that people with your level of canon... rigidity, can watch and enjoy without getting upset over the changes, while giving the 'why can't they just update TOS' crowd exactly that - TOS for the modern era.

This is the setup for the movie, not the movie itself, nor the ones that follow. Give them a try on their own merits at least, because they are Star Trek movies. They may not be quite what you wanted, and they're certainly not perfect, but they have a spirit and a life to them which has been missing from Trek for years.

Perhaps they've found a way to fit their new visuals into existing canon. I'm willing to give it a chance before completely dismissing it

I'll tell you now - as someone who posted that TAS can't be canon because the universe didn't really turn into a cartoon, you're never going to see Discovery as part of the same canon as The Cage. Not the slightest chance. But what I hope is that you'll give the show a chance on its own merits. If you must think of it as a reboot a la @BillJ then do that - it's probably going to be in all but name - but it deserves a chance to be assessed outside of the silly details of uniforms and ship insignias.

 

[Vger23]

There is a Middle Ground here. No, fans don't own the property, the creators do, and the talent helps to make it happen. But, at the same time, you don't have to go out of your way to intentionally piss people off.

You do the best you can to please everyone and if they don't like it then it's on them, not you. You did your best to make the best show possible but it's out of passion for the project and a sense of artistic integrity. Not that you want to piss people off.

There's also the human element. No one likes to be told, "We're just going to take you for granted." That's not Star Trek. That's Real Life. Do you like to be told "We just take you for granted" at work or in your family?

There are going to be fans who will be irate no matter what, that's a fact, but that doesn't mean others have to add fuel to the fire. It's not helping anything and it's not going to make the average person watch any more or less. All they care about is what they put on. Not one group of people taunting another.

Plus, we're in uncharted territory. If people are going to pay, you have to make them want to pay. It doesn't make sense to antagonize customers who you wan't to see pay. How would you like to go into a store and see an employee treat you like crap because they think you'll shop there anyway?

I'd agree with this if the "fans" weren't actively trying to sabotage the success of the new series. Not passively...actively.

That's where this "middle ground" thought falls apart.

I think it's personally reasonable for leaders of a production to stand up for their product, especially if it has been under needless and relentless attack from a vocal minority who would like to see it fail before it's even premiered.

Bravo, I say.

 

[Cake]

Co-relation doesn't prove causation.

What do you mean with that? Obviously SGU lost some viewers who watched SG1 and SGA, because otherwise the ratings would have been higher. That is just a fact. Just like ENT obviously wasn't watched by all TNG viewers. When a spin-off has less viewers than a previous incarnation of the franchise, some people must have stopped watching.

 

[BillJ]

But what I hope is that you'll give the show a chance on its own merits.

Discovery deserves its chance to stand on its own. I wish they would've never brought up universes to begin with and simply stated their goal was to tell entertaining stories and honoring the ideals of what came before.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'd agree with this if the "fans" weren't actively trying to sabotage the success of the new series. Not passively...actively.

They're a minority and should be treated as such. The worst I normally see, outside of bulletin boards, is "I don't want to pay for CBS All Access!" That's more of a CBSAA issue than a DSC one. Then I'll see "Why can't we have it Post-Voyager?!" I equate that with, that's just what they'd rather see.

For actively hoping the series fails, I agree with you. Anyone who's like that shouldn't be catered to at all. If DSC fails, I have a hard time imagining Star Trek coming back to TV unless it's on something like SyFy.

 

[slappy]

Isn't liking stuff the point of being a "fan"?

"Critics" get paid to review each new piece of material from a neutral stance, judging it on the various merits and metrics the critic subscribes to, but FANS are predisposed to LIKE whatever material is produced for the genre, show, or films of which they are FANS.

Um...ok. I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be.

 

[Jedi_Master]

What do you mean with that? Obviously SGU lost some viewers who watched SG1 and SGA, because otherwise the ratings would have been higher. That is just a fact. Just like ENT obviously wasn't watch by all TNG viewers. When a spin-off has less viewers than a previous incarnation of the franchise, some people must have stopped watching.

But if my predictions are wrong and DIS will be a flop and won't last more than two seasons, claims that old fans will watch no matter what will look in hindsight kind of stupid. There is really no guarantee for it. Caprica didn't even survive more than one season. Or just look at CSI: Cyber. It lasted two seasons and they weren't even seasons with a lot of episodes. The three previous CSI series on the other hand had 15, 10 and 9 seasons. A spin-off can never really take old fans for granted. They might watch or they won't. Both can happen.

This is a series of examples that prove nothing. There is no way to PROVE that the lack of interest on the part of franchise fans lead to the failure of those shows. It could just as easily be asserted that the lack of NEW FANS led to the failure of those shows. Or that changing viewership habits led people to walk away. Or that changing ad rates led to the shows no longer being viable, or that changing production costs had the same effect.

There are numerous facts that appear to co-relate to the failure those shows in question, but none of them individually can be attributed as the CAUSE of the failure.