Lorca: Fans Will Have To Adjust

[Roald]

Well, I guess we better throw out everything becasue some designer wanted 'MUH DELTUZ.

And this is not shaming?

I wasn't 'cardboard shaming', hell, I love TOS to death... I was just using some hyperboles to get through to you: TOS aesthetics were outdated in 1979, let alone the 2000's. It's not shaming, it's being realistic: bigger budgets and newer technologies allow for a more effective realisation of Gene's vision. And he made use of it before. Apart from the obvious homages in Trials and Tribble-ations, Relics and In A Mirror Darkly, NOTHING in more than 40 years of Trek has made use of the '60 aesthetics... ever stop to wonder why?

 

[mos6507]

Be rude to your viewers.

To be fair, I see just as much if not more rudeness from Trek fan to Trek fan here (including this thread) than from creators to fans. If fans want decorum they should start by being polite to other fans.

I mean, the dominant attitude here is that everything really should be a no-holds-barred race to the bottom slugfest, in which case what he's saying about wanting to grab the popcorn and watch us reach for each other's throats is on-point.

There are fans who get triggered and then there are fans who take pleasure in insulting fans over having been triggered and so we go round the mulberry bush.

 

[uniderth]

Alternative to what, exactly?

Kirk didn't go from Cadet to captain in one adventure. He worked on a variety of ships before becoming a captain. Spock and Kirk didn't even serve together until the Enterprise.

I'm not interested in alternatives to the characters and their histories as shown in Star Trek.

Like I've said before:

"Never underestimate the need for people to be proven right to themselves."

The failure of DSC, no matter how catastrophic to the franchise and no matter how disappointing to the fans who DO love the show, would vindicate those opinions...and that's all that matters.

Which is why I still herald the cancellation of Enterprise after four season success of the End Enterprise campaign back in 2003.

Just treat is as a reboot. I want it to be entertaining and respectful of the ideals that came before. Beyond that? What does it really matter?

I'm just not interested in watching a reboot.

Why not just add this new data point to your scenario and extrapolate again?

You mean like "Oh, whoops I guess there was a different uniform in there after all. He he who knew?"

And this is not shaming?

It is, but it's ok if I do it.

 

[Kemaiku]

Kirk was the youngest captain in TOS as well, for nothing particularly important other than failing to kill a cloud that killed most of his ships company and moped about blaming himself for for a decade or more.

James *R* Kirk, none of this reboot bullshit "Tiberius" pretender.

 

[Vger23]

To be fair, I see just as much if not more rudeness from Trek fan to Trek fan here (including this thread) than from creators to fans. If fans want decorum they should start by being polite to other fans.

I mean, the dominant attitude here is that everything really should be a no-holds-barred race to the bottom slugfest, in which case what he's saying about wanting to grab the popcorn and watch us reach for each other's throats is on-point.

There are fans who get triggered and then there are fans who take pleasure in insulting fans over having been triggered and so we go round the mulberry bush.

Truth =/= "rudeness"

Isaacs held the mirror up. Nothing more. Nothing less.

We like to hide behind "triggered" and "offended" anytime something threatens our views.

 

[The Doctor]

Star Trek: TMP was a reboot.

So was Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan.

And Star Trek: The Final Frontier.

And that's just the films.

Why are those somehow better than (the unreleased and unknown) Disco?

 

[GhostLoveScore]

Ok. So what camp do you fall into? The "adapt"? Or the "go away"?

I will likely go away if it's too different from Trek that I like.

Life throws shit at you a lot more than a TV show. If you literally cannot adapt to 51 years of change in a small form of media, I despair at your basic ability to adapt to the smallest of changes in life.

I admit, I don't ever change what object stands where in my house. I didn't adapt to new apartment in college, I refused to move to another country for work. I don't like change.

What if somebody wanted to change national anthem just because it's old?

 

[Kemaiku]

That has happened, and most people outside of American don't really have a connection to their national anthem, it's just a random qauint old thing they notice once every few years.

 

[Vger23]

I will likely go away if it's too different from Trek that I like.




I admit, I don't ever change what object stands where in my house. I didn't adapt to new apartment in college, I refused to move to another country for work. I don't like change.

What if somebody wanted to change national anthem just because it's old?

Those are all your personal choices. It's YOUR life and you have every right to live it the way you see fit without any impediment.

A television show is not yours, though. Your only option there is to "adapt or go away." If lots of people "adapt" because the show is great, it will survive. If lots of people "go away" because it is not to their liking, the show will die.

None of this is rocket science.

But it is the truth. It's not "rudeness" or arrogance. Arrogance is wanting something to fail because it doesn't conform with their own personal tastes and desires, regardless of the impact to others.

 

[dahj]

You mean like "Oh, whoops I guess there was a different uniform in there after all. He he who knew?"

Yeah.
What's wrong with that?

 

[mos6507]

We like to hide behind "triggered" and "offended" anytime something threatens our views.

Exactly. But the thing is, when things move beyond the abstract and down into actual examples, expect people to dig in their heels and suggest that there's only one right and wrong way to look at things. People are not granted the right to disagree with certain creative decisions. If they speak up, they risk being labelled with various pejoratives.

It seems like things really went off the rails with the first Kelvin-verse film, at which point I started to notice a pattern of ageist insults against purists. Purists are out of touch, need to sort of crawl back under a rock and just watch reruns and leave Trek to the next generation.

I think there's some degree of that bleeding into the debates over Discovery because of the stylistic carryovers from the Kelvinverse. Those who were most pro-Kelvin are going to be the most vocal in shouting down the purists who wanted something closer to the old aesthetic.

The thing is, I really think Discovery was conceived as an attempt to sort of meet all fans half-way, in which case Isaacs sort of rubbing his hands in glee over the eventual fan-on-fan apocalypse seems to run counter to that mission-statement.

 

[Vger23]

Exactly. But the thing is, when things move beyond the abstract and down into actual examples, expect people to dig in their heels and suggest that there's only one right and wrong way to look at things. People are not granted the right to disagree with certain creative decisions. If they speak up, they risk being labelled with various pejoratives.

It seems like things really went off the rails with the first Kelvin-verse film, at which point I started to notice a pattern of ageist insults against purists. Purists are out of touch, need to sort of crawl back under a rock and just watch reruns and leave Trek to the next generation.

I think there's some degree of that bleeding into the debates over Discovery because of the stylistic carryovers from the Kelvinverse. Those who were most pro-Kelvin are going to be the most vocal in shouting down the purists who wanted something closer to the old aesthetic.

The thing is, I really think Discovery was an attempt to sort of meet all fans half-way, in which case Isaacs sort of rubbing his hands in glee over the eventual fan-on-fan apocalypse seems to run counter to that mission-statement.

I said way further upstream in this thread...the people complaining about aesthetics etc in DSC (and back then in 2009) were not largely the TOS fans. They were TNG era fans who want/ed another TNG era version of Star Trek, and didn't get it. Therefore, they latch on to the design and visual discontinuity to prove that a prequel / 23rd Century show can't be done.

For the most part, the TOS era fans have LONG been at peace with the fact that the visual styles from that show are not going to return. They're much more likely to judge the show on its content than it's adherence to 'canon'.

But...I agree there was a lot of vicious crap spread around at that time...your recollection is absolutely spot-on.

 

[GhostLoveScore]

That has happened, and most people outside of American don't really have a connection to their national anthem, it's just a random qauint old thing they notice once every few years.

You don't get the point, it's not at all about national anthem, I just picked a random thing. Never mind.

 

[Kemaiku]

You don't get the point, it's not at all about national anthem, I just picked a random thing. Never mind.

Oh I get it, people who just won't change. Be aware everything changes, there's no pat on the head for resisting it.

 

[Vger23]

Oh I get it, people who just won't change. Be aware everything changes, there's no pat on the head for resisting it.

Quite the opposite, actually.

 

[Noname Given]

bigger budgets and newer technologies allow for a more effective realisation of Gene's vision.

What? How do bigger budgets get you young willing young 'new to Hollywood' starlets on the casting couch any easier?
^^^
We ARE talking 'Gene's Vision™' of 1960ies STAR TREK here and for GR in that era (.)(.) on the couch was a HUGE aspect of that.

 

[psCargile]

Well, I only hate-watch porn.

 

[GhostLoveScore]

Oh I get it, people who just won't change. Be aware everything changes, there's no pat on the head for resisting it.

translated: "go with the flow, why do you have an opinion"

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

The thing is, I really think Discovery was conceived as an attempt to sort of meet all fans half-way, in which case Isaacs sort of rubbing his hands in glee over the eventual fan-on-fan apocalypse seems to run counter to that mission-statement.

Let's rumble in the alley behind the Five-and-Dime at 3:00.
I'll bring the Leonard Bernstein finger-snapping fight music.

♪♫♬
When you like Trek,
You like Trek all the way
From your first bowl of gagh
To your last Kal-if-fee.
♪♫♬

 

[Kemaiku]

translated: "go with the flow, why do you have an opinion"

Nope, but do keep trying to make it that way.

It's a TV show, nowhere near as important as people are making all this out to be.